Calvinism, explained.

[Albion]

Then, and only then, will he give you eternal life.

I suppose it's true to say that you can't get eternal life until you finish this life, so I guess I agree to this comment, although it does seem a bit odd. Or maybe I should say' unnecessary.'

 

[EmSw]

And this argument again?

If you are aware that you are a sinner and in need of grace and appeal to God for mercy, then He hears you!

How were you 'in Him' before the foundation of the world? I've asked for an explanation, but received none. Maybe you can answer.

But we're not aware of our sinful natures until He makes us aware of our sins and the penalty for sin.

The same can be said of everybody.

This is not a silly argument because it attempts to refute reformed theology, it's silly because it attempts to refute ALL theology.

I'm just looking for the truth. Why did God choose you?

Reformed Protestants no more believe that someone who truly wants to serve Christ will be excluded than you do.

Even the reprobates God has foreordained to hell?

We do believe that it is the Spirit of God that authors that desire and enables it.

The Spirit of God also enables those to remove sin to make themselves a new heart. Will it happen if a person chooses not to believe it, nor act upon it?

 

[EmSw]

Please do not confuse our temporal condition with how God views the situation. God knows the end from the beginning, and he knows that His plan works in our temporal frame of reference, as far as we can see. But He sees much farther, which is why he can choose the elect before the foundation of the world, and determine the moment in time when they will be brought to Him. You apparently cannot conceive of how God being outside of time, unaffected by time, and not subject to its limitations, can decree things far into our future with perfect, pin-point accuracy, and know that they will come about exactly as He has decreed. It's either you can't conceive, or don't want to consider it because it blows a hole in your failed and faulty theology big enough to drive an 18-wheeler through.

With God, it's always "now". He calls those things that are not, as though they are, and they become real. He is the Sovereign, and His word comes to pass, 100% of the time.

How can those chosen before the foundation of the world have no hope? Did you have any hope while living in darkness? Where in God's word does He say you, NF, will be chosen and saved? You do not know if you were chosen or not. Judas was chosen, walked with the Lord, had his eyes opened by the Lord, and received His grace and believed. Yet, we see he didn't know if he was chosen for salvation or not. If Judas didn't know, how is it you know?

 

[tulipbee]

How are you sure He chooses you and not leave you in your own rebellion? You put yourself in His election.

God still does whatever he wants to do.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I suppose it's true to say that you can't get eternal life until you finish this life, so I guess I agree to this comment

It seems to me that eternal life begins at regeneration. We were dead, and when we heard Christ's words we were made alive.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. (John 5:24-25)

 

[nobdysfool]

How can those chosen before the foundation of the world have no hope? Did you have any hope while living in darkness?

All.who have been saved were once unsaved. God's decree does not always happen instantly as you apparently assume it must. God's decrees work within temporalality, so that they come to pass at the time they have been appointed to. Those chosen are not brought to their salvation until the time appointed by God. Until that moment, they are as any other unsaved person. God has predestined them for something different, i.e. their salvation. God does not reveal to us whom He has chosen to save, we can only know after the fact. That is just the way it is, whether you like it or not.

Where in God's word does He say you, NF, will be chosen and saved?

Are you really that dim? There is no verse that says that you, me, or anyone else was specifically chosen, by name. That's why salvation is by faith, and not by works.

You do not know if you were chosen or not. Judas was chosen, walked with the Lord, had his eyes opened by the Lord, and received His grace and believed. Yet, we see he didn't know if he was chosen for salvation or not. If Judas didn't know, how is it you know?

Judas has nothing to do with me or you. That is a red herring. By the fact that I believe, and do my best to live as He would have me live, by His Grace and Holy Spirit, is evidence of my salvation. I take it by faith that I have been saved. I don't worry about it, because of that faith. My salvation is between me and Him, and you have no say in it. You are to work out your own salvation. Whatever God does is Right, Holy, and above reproach, whether you think He is acting right or not, and you've already indicated that you have a problem with God being God, and doing as seems best to Him.

No man deserves salvation, and man cannot do anything to make himself worthy. Not even your often quoted Ezekiel verse covers that. You cannot accept, apparently, that it is God and Him alone who is in control of Salvation. He didn't ask for your opinion, and He really isn't interested in it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Were you 'in Him' before the foundation of the world? Please explain. Paul said you were aliens and without Christ.

Ephesians 2 comes after Ephesians 1.

We are chosen, as His word clearly states, before time began; however, we are regenerated in time and space. Salvation does not become "real" to us until His word is preached, we hear, and are made alive.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.​

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.​

I'm just looking for the truth. Why did God choose you?

Only He knows that.

It was "according to the purpose of his will"; although we have told you and others that 1,000 times, yet you have not ears to hear.

he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ​

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Then, and only then, will he give you eternal life.

Actually, your fate is known before the end of your life. Jesus said this (below) to people who were very alive, with many years left before they died. Our names are not quickly scribbled in the Book of Life at the last minute; they are there before we are even born!

"Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” (Luke 10:20)

 

[supersoldier71]

How were you 'in Him' before the foundation of the world? I've asked for an explanation, but received none. Maybe you can answer.



The same can be said of everybody.



I'm just looking for the truth. Why did God choose you?



Even the reprobates God has foreordained to hell?



The Spirit of God also enables those to remove sin to make themselves a new heart. Will it happen if a person chooses not to believe it, nor act upon it?

Reprobates, by definition, won't truly desire God.

You keep asking how we "know" that we are among the elect: the same way you do. Our ONLY point of disagreement is that we believe that it is God who enables our awareness, thus our Love, and by extension our obedience.

@thatbrian addressed your other points, but --and this is CRITICAL for you to understand, so that even if you disagree you will stop treating Reformed Protestants like "tax collectors" and "strangers": we work out our salvation with "fear and trembling" as Paul instructed us to because just as your obedience is your assurance, my obedience is mine, but MY obedience.

Not EVERYONE else is aware of their standing before God apart from Christ. We believe that when the Holy Spirit moves to rejuvenate someone (temporally speaking), the power of God is "irresistable"--He's God ALMIGHTY. Once reborn, we don't "accept" Jesus! It is only then that we can actually see Him for who He is and properly worship.

Again my question regarding prayer for the lost: you say you pray because salvation is theirs to choose... so why PRAY for them? If has already done all He wishes to do to "convince" someone, why pray? You pray because despite your arguments to the contrary, only God can change hearts. Only God can open the gates to His kingdom, and you are praying for Him to do so. If you are a Christian, you certainly have to accept that God already knows whether or not the person you are praying for will be saved, right? So if God already knows, why are you praying?

Same reason I'm praying: because I DO NOT know, but by taking my petitions before the throne of the Most High God, I can know with the utmost certainty that I've have brought the matter before the only One who can affect the outcome.

 

[EmSw]

All.who have been saved were once unsaved. God's decree does not always happen instantly as you apparently assume it must. God's decrees work within temporalality, so that they come to pass at the time they have been appointed to. Those chosen are not brought to their salvation until the time appointed by God. Until that moment, they are as any other unsaved person. God has predestined them for something different, i.e. their salvation. God does not reveal to us whom He has chosen to save, we can only know after the fact. That is just the way it is, whether you like it or not.

Are you really that dim? There is no verse that says that you, me, or anyone else was specifically chosen, by name. That's why salvation is by faith, and not by works.

Judas has nothing to do with me or you. That is a red herring. By the fact that I believe, and do my best to live as He would have me live, by His Grace and Holy Spirit, is evidence of my salvation. I take it by faith that I have been saved. I don't worry about it, because of that faith. My salvation is between me and Him, and you have no say in it. You are to work out your own salvation. Whatever God does is Right, Holy, and above reproach, whether you think He is acting right or not, and you've already indicated that you have a problem with God being God, and doing as seems best to Him.

No man deserves salvation, and man cannot do anything to make himself worthy. Not even your often quoted Ezekiel verse covers that. You cannot accept, apparently, that it is God and Him alone who is in control of Salvation. He didn't ask for your opinion, and He really isn't interested in it.

The disciples were chosen specifically by name, even Judas. Were the disciples not chosen for salvation?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The disciples were chosen specifically by name, even Judas. Were the disciples not chosen for salvation?

Jesus chose Judas so that the scriptures would be fulfilled.

"I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled,[a]‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’

 

[Thursday]

Election happened long, long, long ago. Do you believe God's word, or not?

God's word tells us that man will be judged for his actions while living on earth. I believe this.

God knows who will follow his will. He is outside of time.
A man reaps what he sows.

 

[Thursday]

Who is it that does good?

Whoever decides to do good as opposed to evil.

 

[Thursday]

Yes! The Elect will do that and God will respond as is indicated there. OK?

No, those who respond are the elect.

A man reaps what he sows, he doesn't sow what he reaps!

 

[Thursday]

The question really is not whether God shows favorites but IN WHAT SENSE does God not show favorites because God chose Abraham out of all the people's of the earth, not because he saw something good in him, or because he earned God's favor, but because God chooses to. He saves the poor, the wretched and the sinners of the earth according to his sovereign good pleasure in Christ.

Abraham was obedient to God.

Do you believe that God would have chosen Abraham if was not obedient?

 

[Thursday]

You are totally ignoring what i have clearly shown, that you are conflating two different things, and trying make one be about the other WHEN THEY ARE NOT!

You are so blinded by your Catholic dogma that you cannot even think straight! Pay attention!

Bluster without substance.

I proved that Calvinism directly contradicts scripture. You must accept this and admit that your dogma is unscriptural.

 

[Albion]

It seems to me that eternal life begins at regeneration. We were dead, and when we heard Christ's words we were made alive.

We could look at it that way, but we do generally think of the afterlife when we speak of "life eternal" I think. to be sure, eternity does not start there (or else it wouldn't be eternal), but I think that's the usual way of thinking of the term.

 

[supersoldier71]

@EmSw

I submit to you Ephesians 1:4-14:

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

The Cross was not plan B. Our Heavenly Father, who is timeless, has had the entire plan worked out from eternity past, to include who He has chosen. What you and I aren't directly privy to is who He has chosen. So what do we do about that?

Ask yourself: "Do I love God?"

"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19

Why is it so hard for you to accept that "grace" is "unmerited favor". Unmerited means you didn't earn it. In this context, you couldn't earn it.

You love God and wish to serve Him: our entire thesis asserts one thing and one thing only: that you give God the credit He rightfully deserves for every part of your salvation.

Our sanctification...welllllll...that's where this stuff gets difficult. Not difficult to understand, mind you, but very difficult to execute, but the very fact that you and I are concerned with sanctification--becoming progressively more and more holy as we walk with Christ and follow Him--is, in itself evidence of the Holy Spirit alive in us.

The beautiful aspect of the Reformed theological worldview is that whatever trial I encounter, I may start from the presupposition that God has ordained it for His glory (for which I was created), but also for my spiritual growth and gain, and so I will be equipped with everything I need to persevere and grow stronger in my faith.

 

[Albion]

No, those who respond are the elect.

You mean, I take it, that anyone who decides to respond is one of the elect...which negates the meaning of the word "elect." They wouldn't have been elected by anyone to anything.

 

[Thursday]

You mean, I take it, that anyone who decides to respond is one of the elect...which negates the meaning of the word "elect." They wouldn't have been elected by anyone to anything.

It negates Calvinist dogma, true.

The bible is clear that our actions determine our eternal destiny, not some divine lottery.

God knows who will respond to his grace, but we don't know.

Our responses determines our eternal circumstances.

God wants all men to be saved. If our responses were irrelevant, then all would be saved.