Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[Albion]

Do you think that those posts just quoted as being opposed to the continuation of the TEN Commandments - are endorsing the sort of continuation that you have stated in this post??

What I see in them, for the most part, is something other than a statement that the Commandments are not longer meaningful or, as the title of the thread put it, "valid."[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

I think the problem is that any suggestion that the Commandments have a different place in our lives now than they did before Christ is automatically interpreted by you to mean that they are now refuted or of no importance whatsoever.

From page 1

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.
Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.
1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

==========================

In that example I open a door to have discussion on point 7 - but in fact the great majority of the posting is all about defending the first 6 points against various opposing posts.

Which is really strange given that those six points are where there is the most agreement!

You are an example of a person that appears to agree to all 7 points in that list - where I only agree with 6 of the 7 points.

But I find it fascinating that you seem to have re-imagined this entire thread such that all those who have posted in opposition against the first 6 points - (though they may agree with me on the 7th point) -- are responding with your same view of it.

How is that happening???

 

[tatteredsoul]

[FONT=&quot]Are God's Ten Commandments still valid ??

That is the primary question to be answered on this section of the board.

And the irrefutable response from scripture is ... "yes".

========================

Here we have the NT text providing examples from the TEN Commandments -- affirming them as "still" valid.

And of course scripture is -- true.

=========================

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said;Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments; 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself


"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19


Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Note Paul says in Romans 3 that this is the Law that defines sin and condemns the entire world as sinners... that would not be "the Law about Passover". That does not condemn gentiles at all.
.
...

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away ==============================

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets" a term that specifies all of OT "scripture")

Matt 22 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it."

Any part of scripture read could fall under that title.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

=================================

Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

I didn't know this was an issue...

When, or where did God, or Christ ever say that any of the law was invalid? From my understanding, we were charged with a bit more responsibility (anger = murder in heart, lust = adultery in heart...) from the Word of God Himself. I don't remember Him saying any of the Law was invalid. (I also don't remember Him saying following the Law gains salvation; on the contrary, God's grace over our terrible state, and our faith in Christ justifies us. But He doesn't expect us to just become spiritual derelects, does He?)

Please let me know if I am wrong so I can stop crucifying my flesh (and mind,) and be supremely carefree.

 

[BobRyan]

What I see in them, for the most part, is something other than a statement that the Commandments are not longer meaningful or, as the title of the thread put it, "valid."

So then perhaps you see them strongly affirming Moody's position - after all Moody was very happy with Sunday keeping as being in compliance with the 4th commandment.

 

[BobRyan]

I didn't know this was an issue...

When, or where did God, or Christ ever say that any of the law was invalid? From my understanding, we were charged with a bit more responsibility (anger = murder in heart, lust = adultery in heart...) from the Word of God Himself. I don't remember Him saying any of the Law was invalid. (I also don't remember Him saying following the Law gains salvation;

True - that would be the case in both old and new testament - the Law was never a means of salvation.

 

[Albion]

I assume you mean "4th commandment" not "First Commandment".

Whoops. My apologies.

In that case - do you think the "4th commandment is abolished" posts - are in harmony with your same "yes we honor the 4th commandment and keep it" (no matter if the point is Sunday or Saturday -- just asking about the intent)

Let's cut to the bottom line instead of nit-picking who says what about this. Yes, you can find someone somewhere who'll say almost anything, but the overwhelming majority of people and churches who worship on Sunday do not believe that they have disregarded the Commandments nor would they want to do so. You are taught to say that that's what such people MUST think if they don't worship on Saturday instead, but they don't. They consider the Commandments to still be valid.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What I see in them, for the most part, is something other than a statement that the Commandments are not longer meaningful or, as the title of the thread put it, "valid."

[/QUOTE]
So they are more of a suggestion than a commandment then?

Suggestions are to be taken or not or any point in between. Commandments on the other hand are specific in their requirements, both the letter and spirit.

 

[Albion]

So they are more of a suggestion than a commandment then?

No. Certainly not. In fact, I'm surprised you'd try to make a joke out of this matter, considering how much refining of the wording and back and forth has gone on in order to get correct the exact meaning intended by both sides.

 

[BobRyan]

Why are all understood and obeyed in letter and spirit except one... the one that says "Remember..."

Why does violating 9 Commandments constitute sin and require repentance, but one is violated with impunity?

It's not conceded by people who worship on Sunday that they do, in fact, violate the first commandment.
I think that's the best answer to your question.

I assume you mean "4th commandment" not "First Commandment".

In that case - do you think the "4th commandment is abolished" posts - are in harmony with your same "yes we honor the 4th commandment and keep it" (no matter if the point is Sunday or Saturday -- just asking about the intent)

Whoops. My apologies.

Let's cut to the bottom line instead of nit-picking who says what about this. Yes, you can find someone somewhere who'll say almost anything,

Well I am giving several examples from the first half of this thread - where those opposed to the TEN Commandments -- including the 4th commandment seem to be pretty clear. Not just one or two in that case.

but the overwhelming majority of people and churches who worship on Sunday do not believe that they have disregarded the Commandments nor would they want to do so.

As I point out on page one - I think the majority of pro-sunday scholars would agree that the 4th commandment is not to be ignored.

Yet on this board - the great volume of posts against the 7th day SAbbath are also against the Ten Commandments as continued for the saints.

Put simply - there are two pro-Sunday camps. And the one that is most often heard on this part of the board - opposes the TEN Commandments (by their own statements). As I said on page one - I think that majority of pro-sunday scholarship does not take that path.

So then "how odd" that those first 6 points are left to be defended by those that you claim to toss under a bus -- yet they are 6 points you yourself agree with.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ quotes Moses - like this

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the Commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

"Moses said"
"The Word of God"
"The Commandment of God"

Are all linked together by Christ.
==================================================

Eph 6:2 what unit of Law still valid in the NT for the saints - has as the 'first commandment with a promise' - the 5th Commandment - the commandment to "Honor your father and mother"??


So then -- is it true that this particular teaching in the Bible does not really matter and can be tossed under a bus as "optional" or "subject to the dictates of the whim of man"??

 

[bugkiller]

Then try reading the actual thread -- Notice the OP as quoted below - and then the list of responses that you are claiming "do not exist"

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===========================




it looks like you have re-imagined those posts above as saying nothing more than "yes the TEN Commandments are still valid for Christians - but they hold a different place"

Is that your position?

Is that "creative reading"??

Hey that's cute. How did you get steeno7 to sign my name?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I assume you mean "4th commandment" not "First Commandment".

In that case - do you think the "4th commandment is abolished" posts - are in harmony with your same "yes we honor the 4th commandment and keep it" (no matter if the point is Sunday or Saturday -- just asking about the intent)



Well I am giving several examples from the first half of this thread - where those opposed to the TEN Commandments -- including the 4th commandment seem to be pretty clear. Not just one or two in that case.



As I point out on page one - I think the majority of pro-sunday scholars would agree that the 4th commandment is not to be ignored.

Yet on this board - the great volume of posts against the 7th day SAbbath are also against the Ten Commandments as continued for the saints.

Put simply - there are two pro-Sunday camps. And the one that is most often heard on this part of the board - opposes the TEN Commandments (by their own statements). As I said on page one - I think that majority of pro-sunday scholarship does not take that path.

So then "how odd" that those first 6 points are left to be defended by those that you claim to toss under a bus -- yet they are 6 points you yourself agree with.

You've been presented with the appropriate passages only to ignore or abuse them as you wish.

bugkiller

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

No. Certainly not. In fact, I'm surprised you'd try to make a joke out of this matter, considering how much refining of the wording and back and forth has gone on in order to get correct the exact meaning intended by both sides.

It's no laughing matter brother... Commandment 6 is do not kill, so that means that everything from the letter "murder" (physical) on down to the spirit of malice or contempt, probably finer (spirit). Commandment 4 is to rest the seventh day, so that means from the letter "no work but worship Friday sundown to Saturday sundown" (physical) on down to our rest in the assurance of Christ as our Saviour.

All the Commandments are treated this way... from the letter on down and rightly understood as sin if violated. The same standard applies to the 4th.

The seventh day Sabbath is to be obeyed as the other nine, or none at all...

 

[Albion]

Well I am giving several examples from the first half of this thread - where those opposed to the TEN Commandments -- including the 4th commandment seem to be pretty clear.

I don't agree that most of them did say that.

Yet on this board - the great volume of posts against the 7th day SAbbath are also against the Ten Commandments as continued for the saints.

I also don't agree that that's correct. The examples you gave me do not, in most cases, bear our what you're saying here.

Put simply - there are two pro-Sunday camps. And the one that is most often heard on this part of the board - opposes the TEN Commandments (by their own statements).

I don't think that's so. If you collect all the statements posted on this subject, you could count which are in each category, I suppose, but the ones you gave me a few posts back absolutely do not verify what you're saying here about them.

 

[toLiJC]

Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

there is a Holy Law of faith, in other words, there are Holy Commandments of faith, and, as it is known, there are special rules everywhere, for example the police officers have to comply with special rules that apply only to the police officers, the doctors have to comply with special rules of the medicine that apply only to them, the employees/workers of one company have to comply with the requirements of their boss/chief, the inhabitants of this world have to comply with the universal moral principles for coexistence with their cohabitants, and in a similar way the believers/worshipers/spiritual servants also have to comply with Holy rules of faith that apply only to them, because they should not cause evil/harm/affliction to any person, neither spiritually nor physically, yes, unfortunately, there has been a spiritual iniquity and exactly it has turned out to be the cause of all other iniquities and evils, that is why there are special commandments of faith, but in order for a man to (be able to) understand them, he has to penetrate the essence of the things of God, otherwise it is very possible that he speculate...

Blessings

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't agree that most of them did say that.


I also don't agree that that's correct. The examples you gave me do not, in most cases, bear our what you're saying here.


I don't think that's so. If you collect all the statements posted on this subject, you could count which are in each category, I suppose, but the ones you gave me a few posts back absolutely do not verify what you're saying here about them.

Albion, do you keep the 4th Commandment as stated in Exodus 20? To keep Holy the seventh day? Or have you compromised from the letter of the Law to keep a seventh day.

 

[Albion]

Albion, do you keep the 4th Commandment as stated in Exodus 20? To keep Holy the seventh day? Or have you compromised from the letter of the Law to keep a seventh day.

Saturday is considered to be the Sabbath. There are certain duties connected to the Sabbath. My church holds its primary worship services on Sunday because that's the day the Lord rose from the dead--the single most important event in history. The Scripture authorizes this in several places (as I'm sure you've heard before).

 

[bugkiller]

It's no laughing matter brother... Commandment 6 is do not kill, so that means that everything from the letter "murder" (physical) on down to the spirit of malice or contempt, probably finer (spirit). Commandment 4 is to rest the seventh day, so that means from the letter "no work but worship Friday sundown to Saturday sundown" (physical) on down to our rest in the assurance of Christ as our Saviour.

All the Commandments are treated this way... from the letter on down and rightly understood as sin if violated. The same standard applies to the 4th.

The seventh day Sabbath is to be obeyed as the other nine, or none at all...

Why then do you require others to go to hell by working for you on the Sabbath?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

there is a Holy Law of faith, in other words, there are Holy Commandments of faith, and, as it is known, there are special rules everywhere, for example the police officers have to comply with special rules that apply only to the police officers, the doctors have to comply with special rules of the medicine that apply only to them, the employees/workers of one company have to comply with the requirements of their boss/chief, the inhabitants of this world have to comply with the universal moral principles for coexistence with their cohabitants, and in a similar way the believers/worshipers/spiritual servants also have to comply with Holy rules of faith that apply only to them, because they should not cause evil/harm/affliction to any person, neither spiritually nor physically, yes, unfortunately, there has been a spiritual iniquity and exactly it has turned out to be the cause of all other iniquities and evils, that is why there are special commandments of faith, but in order for a man to (be able to) understand them, he has to penetrate the essence of the things of God, otherwise it is very possible that he speculate...

Blessings

The key you repeated use is "that apply to them."

bugkiller