The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[iron2iron]

Only the elect, who are are found in the whole world. When "the whole world" was written, it did not intend to mean every individual, because it was written in contradistinction to what was the general understanding at the time which was, salvation belongs to Israel - no gentiles allowed.

Of course we are given a choice. But we are not free to not choose. If my will was truly free, I would be God.

So, if you go out and kill someone you could blame that on God?

 

[iron2iron]

Only the elect, who are are found in the whole world. When "the whole world" was written, it did not intend to mean every individual, because it was written in contradistinction to what was the general understanding at the time which was, salvation belongs to Israel - no gentiles allowed.

Of course we are given a choice. But we are not free to not choose. If my will was truly free, I would be God.

Let me ask this question this way. Did Christ only die for the people who go to Heaven?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Let me ask this question this way. Did Christ only die for the people who go to Heaven?

If Christ died for people in hell, how would that work? If He died for them, they would not be in hell, right?

 

[True Science]

True Science I would say becareful with this line of theology....As you posted the bible says:
Joh 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Do you keep all of the commandments?

This is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if no one today in our time keeps all of the commandments or just one guy in an isolated village in some third world country, it doesn't change the true teaching of God and make it of none effect. By saying this you are implying it is impossible to keep the commandments and consequently no one has ever done so, is not doing so, and never will do so, except Christ. If anyone today was to tell you they were keeping all the commandments, you would most likely say they are a liar and the truth is not in them. So here is the Scripture that contradicts your implications:

1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments, and we do the things pleasing before Him.

John said the Assembly was keeping the commandments in his time and that this is the reason they received whatever they asked for from the Lord. Notice it does not say merely because they had faith only. The reason for receiving is because they are keeping the commandments. Obviously it is not impossible or something no one has ever done except Christ.

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.

2Ki 23:25 And there was no king before him like him, who turned to Jehovah with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses; and after him none rose up like him.

Having statements like this in Scripture is just confusion if your beliefs are true. But they are not. We can keep the commandments just like others have done according to the holy inspired Word of God.

 

[True Science]

"No, I didn't. Apparently my post was misunderstood."

>>> You clearly did.

"The Bible never says that. In fact, obedience should result from faith. But Jesus showed that doesn't always happen. Luke 8:13"

>>> Because sometimes people don't have real faith or they do have real faith but it fails under trial. This verse doesn't help you. Only those with faith to the end bearing fruit inherit the blessing of the Kingdom.

""These verses are about fellowship, not relationship.""

>>> This is merely your private interpretation. It says to have the Holy Spirit you have to keep the commandments.

"No it doesn't. Gal 3:2 and 5 tells us HOW one receives the Holy Spirit.
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"

>>> Yeshua overrides Paul. I interpret Paul according to the word of the beginning of Christ (Hebrews 6:1).

1Ti 6:3 If anyone teaches differently, and does not consent to sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching according to godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he has been puffed up, understanding nothing, but is sick concerning doubts and arguments, out of which comes envy, strife, evil-speakings, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 meddling, of men whose mind has been corrupted and deprived of the truth, supposing gain to be godliness. Withdraw from such persons.

2Pe 3:15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him;
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Then beloved, you knowing beforehand, watch lest being led away by the error of the lawless you fall from your own steadfastness.

1Co 3:11 For no one is able to lay any other foundation beside the One having been laid, who is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,
1Co 3:13 the work of each will be revealed; for the Day will make it known, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire will prove the work of each, what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If the work of anyone which he built remains, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

Problem is you guys aren't even building upon the foundation to begin with.

without Paul's letters in the Bible we would not have much information about how the Atonement works in the NT. Do you realize that? You you not realize that Paul was getting into the meat of the Gospel, onto deep theology about the Atonement? This does not undermine the word of the beginning of Christ. If it does it is false. Do you not understand that the Gentiles were pagans without the Law of Moses when they were called? Yet they repented and believed and were saved even though they did not have the Law, know it, and were keeping it all to the 'T'. "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us." While we were yet sinners the grace of God appeared to men as a gift that the did not deserve or even seek and yet they were called by the Gospel and them hearing the Word of God they had faith, believed it and turned from their old ways to Christ. So they were covered by the Blood over their former transgressions and they were washed away. It is like Acts 15. They did not have to keep every jot and tittle of the Law immediately to be saved and in the covenant family of God. They just came in from among the Gentiles into a totally new lifestyle of righteousness. They needed time to grow in grace. They were not to be overburdened. God did not immediately give the Law to Israel coming out of Egypt all at once. It was given in stages and many times when they made mistakes in these special revealed laws of God, God was merciful to them with patience. But obstinate people who persisted in rebellion and those who did heinous things were dealt with in judgment. And Israel coming out of the bondage of Egypt to the Holy Land is the type and shadow of what happens now in NC salvation. Acts 15 actually implies that since there are some minimum requirements that were put upon them to be of the household of faith that works are necessary to be saved because if you are not of the household of faith, how can you have salvation cut off fro Christ's Body?


​

 

[True Science]

"Yes they are! And no one pleases God without the Holy Spirit & saving faith that grace imparts.
Saving faith IS a work - a work of God."

By the way, I do not agree with his understanding John 6:29. It does not prove faith is a work. The work of God is not faith in this passage. This is a literal translation.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, in order that you might believe into [Him] whom that One sent.

"Believe" is in the subjunctive and "that" means 'in order that', 'for the purpose of.' Jesus is saying here that he that the miracle he just did is for the purpose of making them believe on him which isn't assured since it is in the subjunctive. This is actually a refutation of Calvinism because Jesus is saying he is doing miracles for these people "who he knew believed not" [truly], were not given to the Son, and were not being drawn by the Father, so that they might believe!

And no faith is not only a work of God.

Mat 9:22 But turning and seeing her, Jesus said, Be comforted, daughter; your faith has healed you. And the woman was healed from that hour.

Mat 15:28 Then answering, Jesus said to her, O woman, great is your faith; let it be to you as you desire. And her daughter was healed from that hour. [funny how Jesus acts so surprised by this woman's faith and praises her so for her faith that he supposedly gave her from eternity]

Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, Go, your faith has healed you. And instantly he saw again, and followed Jesus in the highway.

And actually the only thing you said right is only saving faith pleases God. The rest is not Scriptural. Before Cornelius was a born again believer with the Holy Spirit he was pleasing God as a righteous Roman proselyte to Judaism who gave alms. That is what the text says. Hebrews 11 says without faith it is impossible to please God. It doesn't say anything else of the sort you said.

 

[iron2iron]

If Christ died for people in hell, how would that work? If He died for them, they would not be in hell, right?

Jesus tells of the parable of the King and the slave that owed Him ten thousand talents. Jesus compares the story to the Kingdom of God, so the slave is man and the King is Jesus. The King forgave the sinner all the debt but the sinner would not forgive others, so in the end the King returned the debt to the sinner.

Thus is not about the bad that we have done, it is about the good that we refuse to do. This guy was not one of the elect, but God forgave him his debt, but he would not DO what was right.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If Christ died for people in hell, how would that work? If He died for them, they would not be in hell, right?

Christ died for the sins of the world.

What Christ offers those who come to Him is salvation from sin.

Dying for sin is not the same as each one of us being saved FROM our sin.

The Word tells us that Jesus CONQUERED sin. To conquer sin, it would be all sin.

Let's at least understand what Christ did on the cross.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"So, what verse teaches that one is predestinated to salvation?"

Here we go again . . .

You know, when someone challenges me on verses that say what I claim, I actually show them, complete with explanation.

But instead of simply doing that, you completely dodge the challenge. Why? Because you know very well that there AREN'T ANY verses that teach that one is predestined to salvation.

Would you like me to provide verses on what believers ARE predestined to? I'd be happy to oblige. But only if you're really interested. Which I don't think you are, given the retort you just gave to my challenge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eph1:4
Important enough to remember.

Actually, important enough to understand. Which the reformed don't. The "us" in 1:4 is the same "us" as found in 1:19. The reformed don't like that much.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul said the Gentiles not having the law. They didn't even know it or have it. So how did it get written on their hearts? Who is the only one who can see the heart? God.

So far, so good.

The Holy Spirit wrote it on their heart because their heart had been prepared.

God prepared the hearts of ALL Gentiles, not just some. Keep that in mind. Apparently He didn't prepare the hearts of any Jews, so He just gave them the Law. Would that be your view?

Read Jeremiah 4:3-4 and also Acts 5:32 (this is the ones that God gives the Holy Spirit to)

Acts 5:32 - “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Listen to what Paul told the Galatians:
Gal 3:2,5
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

So, given what Paul told the Galatians, what do you think he meant in Acts 5:32 regarding "obey Him"?

Human effort, as expressed in works or deeds, or keeping the Law, all involve earning something. Grace means something NOT earned or deserved. In fact, grace EXCLUDES any earning or deserving.

Do you understand this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Prepared by His choice, not ours. That choice was made before creation commenced. Eph1:4

OK, what was "that choice" mentioned in Eph 1:4?

 

[True Science]

So far, so good.


God prepared the hearts of ALL Gentiles, not just some. Keep that in mind. Apparently He didn't prepare the hearts of any Jews, so He just gave them the Law. Would that be your view?


Acts 5:32 - “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Listen to what Paul told the Galatians:
Gal 3:2,5
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

So, given what Paul told the Galatians, what do you think he meant in Acts 5:32 regarding "obey Him"?

Human effort, as expressed in works or deeds, or keeping the Law, all involve earning something. Grace means something NOT earned or deserved. In fact, grace EXCLUDES any earning or deserving.

Do you understand this?

But here's the problem. It does not necessarily follow that because something is not merited because it is undeserved that there must not still be required works to do to access the favor. The main point Paul is trying to make is that we did not bring about the Atonement because we are so great, actually it is the opposite, and God had no obligation to us to do it. We do not deserve to be saved. We cannot therefore boast in ourselves. Because without the gracious act of God no matter how much we obey we could not be saved without it. It does not mean that to access this we do not have to have faith, meaning be faithful by doing what God said, not only believe.

“9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! [. . .] 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 9:26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”
—1Corinthians NKJV

The Greek word translated here as “disqualified,” every time everywhere else in the canonical NT refers to what Calvinist like to term the “reprobate,” as we see from the KJV Concordance in the e-Sword Bible software program:


“G96

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

Total KJV Occurrences: 8

reprobate, 3

Rom_1:28, 2Ti_3:8, Tit_1:16

reprobates, 3

2Co_13:5-7 (3)

castaway, 1

1Co_9:27

rejected, 1

Heb_6:8”


To be saved we are required to obey God's commandments and it can be forfeited by our failure to do so, folks. This is not rocket science, people.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But here's the problem. It does not necessarily follow that because something is not merited because it is undeserved that there must not still be required works to do to access the favor. The main point Paul is trying to make is that we did not bring about the Atonement because we are so great, actually it is the opposite, and God had no obligation to us to do it. We do not deserve to be saved. We cannot therefore boast in ourselves. Because without the gracious act of God no matter how much we obey we could not be saved without it. It does not mean that to access this we do not have to have faith, meaning be faithful by doing what God said, not only believe.

“9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! [. . .] 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 9:26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”
—1Corinthians NKJV

The Greek word translated here as “disqualified,” every time everywhere else in the canonical NT refers to what Calvinist like to term the “reprobate,” as we see from the KJV Concordance in the e-Sword Bible software program:


“G96

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

Total KJV Occurrences: 8

reprobate, 3

Rom_1:28, 2Ti_3:8, Tit_1:16

reprobates, 3

2Co_13:5-7 (3)

castaway, 1

1Co_9:27

rejected, 1

Heb_6:8”


To be saved we are required to obey God's commandments and it can be forfeited by our failure to do so, folks. This is not rocket science, people.

When Paul talks about us preaching the gospel, it is to share with others the grace and salvation that they can also have.

It is not to boast on ourselves that we have what they do not have, so it is about WHY we share the gospel and HOW.

The WHY is because we want others to have Jesus Christ and eternal life. It is not that we have eternal life and others do not. So the HOW is only through Jesus Christ and is not a boast of what we do have, but a sharing of the Good News that God wants all to have.

Also, in regards to your last sentence. We share the Good News about CHrist. The Holy Spirit leads us in truth, not oursleves and God does not take away salvation based on what we do, just like He does not give it based on what we have done (in good works).

Paul is speaking of running a race if there is no prize (Good works without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit). The prize is eternal salvation through Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

It is deeper spiritually than what you are making it out to be.

 

[FreeGrace2]

iron2iron said: ↑
Let me ask this question this way. Did Christ only die for the people who go to Heaven?

If Christ died for people in hell, how would that work?

If He didn't, He would have given all of them a perfectly legitimate excuse for why they are in hell.

Their excuse would be this: "Well, Christ didn't die for me. The ONLY reason I'm in hell."

If He died for them, they would not be in hell, right?

Nope. If He didn't, He would have given them an excuse for why they are there.

The REASON they are there is because they never received the free gift of eternal life that is available to everyone. Not that Calvinism thinks so.

 

[ToBeLoved]

“9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! [. . .] 9:23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 9:25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 9:26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”
—1Corinthians NKJV

The Greek word translated here as “disqualified,” every time everywhere else in the canonical NT refers to what Calvinist like to term the “reprobate,” as we see from the KJV Concordance in the e-Sword Bible software program:


“G96

ἀδόκιμος

adokimos

Total KJV Occurrences: 8

reprobate, 3

Rom_1:28, 2Ti_3:8, Tit_1:16

reprobates, 3

2Co_13:5-7 (3)

castaway, 1

1Co_9:27

rejected, 1

Heb_6:8”


To be saved we are required to obey God's commandments and it can be forfeited by our failure to do so, folks. This is not rocket science, people.

There is nothing, NOTHING that Paul is saying that is in regards to works.

As a matter of fact, Paul makes it clear that he must be an EXAMPLE to others showing Christ in his own life so others see the power of CHRIST, not the power of Paul.

So these verses actually go against your premise of loosing salvation.

 

[True Science]

When Paul talks about us preaching the gospel, it is to share with others the grace and salvation that they can also have.

It is not to boast on ourselves that we have what they do not have, so it is about WHY we share the gospel and HOW.

The WHY is because we want others to have Jesus Christ and eternal life. It is not that we have eternal life and others do not. So the HOW is only through Jesus Christ and is not a boast of what we do have, but a sharing of the Good News that God wants all to have.

Also, in regards to your last sentence. We share the Good News about CHrist. The Holy Spirit leads us in truth, not oursleves and God does not take away salvation based on what we do, just like He does not give it based on what we have done (in good works).

Paul is speaking of running a race if there is no prize (Good works without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit). The prize is eternal salvation through Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

It is deeper spiritually than what you are making it out to be.

Sir, you are wrong. The text I quoted I exegeted in great detail in my paper about it that I have posted in here a few times but keeps getting taken down and I get banned for weeks because of the forums stupid anti-biblical flaming and goading rules. This paper without a shadow of a doubt shows the true understanding of this text. You are absolutely in error, sir. Yes, that is one of the main motivations for bringing the Good Message to people, that we want to bless other with the truth, but it is not the only reason and is not what Paul is only saying here. I'm sorry but you are just plain wrong. If you want to read my paper, then PM me and I'll send it. Because you cannot get out of this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But here's the problem. It does not necessarily follow that because something is not merited because it is undeserved that there must not still be required works to do to access the favor.

If something is undeserved and unearned, there is NOTHING TO DO to receive it. Like a gift. How many birthday and Christmas presents did you work for?

The main point Paul is trying to make is that we did not bring about the Atonement because we are so great, actually it is the opposite, and God had no obligation to us to do it.

I hope you are aware that God obligated Himself when He created the plan of salvation. He obligated Himself to give the free gift of eternal life to who place their trust in Christ for salvation.

We do not deserve to be saved. We cannot therefore boast in ourselves. Because without the gracious act of God no matter how much we obey we could not be saved without it. It does not mean that to access this we do not have to have faith, meaning be faithful by doing what God said, not only believe.

The problem with this is that there is only one requirement for salvation: to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The works that are commanded are for blessings and eternal reward. Not salvation.

To be saved we are required to obey God's commandments and it can be forfeited by our failure to do so, folks. This is not rocket science, people.

To be saved, we must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Nothing else.

If any kind of works are required, then we've earned it. Because of grace, salvation cannot be earned. Therefore, NO WORKS will save us.

 

[Thursday]

I

If any kind of works are required, then we've earned it. Because of grace, salvation cannot be earned. Therefore, NO WORKS will save us.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Matt 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

[True Science]

When Paul talks about us preaching the gospel, it is to share with others the grace and salvation that they can also have.

It is not to boast on ourselves that we have what they do not have, so it is about WHY we share the gospel and HOW.

The WHY is because we want others to have Jesus Christ and eternal life. It is not that we have eternal life and others do not. So the HOW is only through Jesus Christ and is not a boast of what we do have, but a sharing of the Good News that God wants all to have.

Also, in regards to your last sentence. We share the Good News about CHrist. The Holy Spirit leads us in truth, not oursleves and God does not take away salvation based on what we do, just like He does not give it based on what we have done (in good works).

Paul is speaking of running a race if there is no prize (Good works without Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit). The prize is eternal salvation through Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

It is deeper spiritually than what you are making it out to be.

More empty claims. Your treatment of this text is unethical. You are merely playing games with your own head. You are merely brushing off the obvious. The text is not only saying what you are about wanting to save others and to be an example.

And nothing I said implies boasting in oneself, nor does it imply that we do it in our own strength without help from God. That is just your delusional mindset that makes you do this.