Universal reconciliation

[cgaviria]

Well, that's interesting, but the first Christian pastors held to the view that God's love would win out in the end. In the Greek speaking world of the Christian East, this view of God's universal love held sway, and did so pretty much until Augustine came along. Seems to me that those closest to the source (Christ) would have a purer and more uncorrupted view.

It also seems to me that if we allow that the Bible says that God is love, then His acts have to correspond with His state of being. When I ask myself what pure love would do in regards to sinners, I keep coming up with the answer that it would do everything possible to save and redeem them, and not give up on them. Something I think we humans, broken as we are, do not understand.

God is not just love, he is other things as well. In scripture says,

For even our God [*2*fire *1*is a consuming]. (Hebrews 12:29 [ABP])

He is also a consuming fire. And look at the scripture as well,

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:13 [ESV])

God loved Jacob, but hated Esau, before they were even born! So therefore, God's love applies to his people. But those who are not his he hates.

 

[cgaviria]

"A lie travels 1000 miles while the truth is still putting on its shoes."

Perhaps you should find some more reputable sources for truth regarding the Catholic church than the books and tracts you have been reading. Much of what has been written in the last 500 years regarding the Church is hate-filled rubbish which has no basis in truth.

For instance, in [ulr=[URL]http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-anti-catholic-bible]The[/URL] Anti-Catholic Bible[/url], also known as ROMAN CATHOLICISM, a book written by Lorraine Boettner, there were so many fatuous claims and outright lies that the publisher, once he found out about them, refused to have anything further to do with the book. The same can be said for the books MYSTERY BABYLON and THE TWO BABYLONS written by Hislop. And Jack Chick tracts are notorious for this sort of thing.

The fact is that you can trust the anti-Catholic bigots of the world to publish the most scurrilous of lies regarding the Church in their venomous hatred of Her. Yet there is not a single trace of either Baptist or Protestant religions or churches ever existing prior to 1517 and Luther's rebellion.

I have read figures that say that the Catholic Church murdered 70 million people during the Inquisition when there weren't even that many people in Europe at the time. What did they do...count all the non-Catholic dogs and cats as well to get to those numbers.

You have believed lies, sir.

And as for the sins in the Church, perhaps you should read again and better the Scriptures you claim to know so well. Jesus said that the Kingdom of God would be like a field in which the wheat and tares grow together. He never claimed nor taught that the Church would be pure before His return to end time and establish His eternal Kingdom.

Denying that the catholic church has mass killed millions is like denying that adolph hitler killed his millions. So much so is it true that even the Vatican itself HAD ADMITTED and ISSUED APOLOGIES FOR KNOWN KILLINGS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST. These are PUBLIC APOLOGIES ISSUED BY THE VATICAN. GOOGLE IT. So its not just what people have said about them in the past. They admit it themselves. Theres absolutely no denying here what they have done.

 

[Light of the East]

God is not just love, he is other things as well. In scripture says,

For even our God [*2*fire *1*is a consuming]. (Hebrews 12:29 [ABP])

He is also a consuming fire. And look at the scripture as well,

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:13 [ESV])

God loved Jacob, but hated Esau, before they were even born! So therefore, God's love applies to his people. But those who are not his he hates.

*sniff sniff* Hmmmmmmmmmmm....think I smell Calvinism somewhere in this room!

So tell me....how can God be pure love and turn around and hate? One who IS love cannot hate. Could it be that the translation of this word from Greek is off? Strong's Concordance suggests that besides hate, it also means to detest, which makes me think that perhaps it is not Esau himself, but Esau's actions in despising his birthright that God despised.

 

[Light of the East]

Denying that the catholic church has mass killed millions is like denying that adolph hitler killed his millions. So much so is it true that even the Vatican itself HAD ADMITTED and ISSUED APOLOGIES FOR KNOWN KILLINGS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST. These are PUBLIC APOLOGIES ISSUED BY THE VATICAN. GOOGLE IT. So its not just what people have said about them in the past. They admit it themselves. Theres absolutely no denying here what they have done.

In other words, don't tell me the truth because I don't wish to examine it or change what I believe.

You can read THIS or you can remain ignorant. The choice is entirely up to you.

BTW - We do know that your Protestant forefathers murdered quite a few Catholics in England and Scotland just for the "crime" of being Catholic. Nice people you hang around with while you justify yourself by trashing Christ's Church.

 

[cgaviria]

*sniff sniff* Hmmmmmmmmmmm....think I smell Calvinism somewhere in this room!

So tell me....how can God be pure love and turn around and hate? One who IS love cannot hate. Could it be that the translation of this word from Greek is off? Strong's Concordance suggests that besides hate, it also means to detest, which makes me think that perhaps it is not Esau himself, but Esau's actions in despising his birthright that God despised.

One can love and one can hate. Do you not love your mother, yet do you not yourself hate the devil as well? God loves, and God hates. He chooses to love whoever he wants to love. Be it hate or detest, it conveys the same thing, REJECTION. God rejected Esau before he was even born and had even done anything, whether good or bad.

 

[Der Alte]

You don't need to get into deep dissertation and read a ton of different sources to uncover truth. I only concern myself with whats in the scriptures, everything else, all other "source", are just babbles that darken understanding. I just gave you a scriptures. The scripture in Isaiah and the scripture in Mark that references it, which you also referenced. Thus far you haven't refuted those scriptures and the logic I just presented to you about the dead carcasses in this fiery gehenna where people are tossed to be killed. In one scriptural little verse I just destroyed your whole theology. Sometimes thats all it takes, and your 10 Jewish book references and all their logics cant refute scripture. You need to unlearn what you've learned outside of the scripture, and STUDY the scripture itself. Dissect it. Divide it. Understand it. How is it possible that there will be carasses in this fire? You can only find out if you DISSECT the words of God. And i've just given you the logic. Trust me, I've been doing much dissection over many years studying this very topic as well, and I used to believe the same things you did. I had to unlearn what I was taught growing up by the church, and really study what the scripture really says. You'd be surprised at how deep the deception and false doctrine runs in the churches.

Leaning on your own understanding, essentially saying my scripture trumps your scripture. All you are doing is saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh! I saw no refutation of anything. Nothing I posted was from outside the scripture. I showed what the Jews of Jesus' time believed about hell, from scripture, and how what Jesus taught, from scripture, supported that view. You so-called "logic,""dissection," etc. is nothing but your own unsupported opinion.

 

[cgaviria]

In other words, don't tell me the truth because I don't wish to examine it or change what I believe.

You can read THIS or you can remain ignorant. The choice is entirely up to you.

BTW - We do know that your Protestant forefathers murdered quite a few Catholics in England and Scotland just for the "crime" of being Catholic. Nice people you hang around with while you justify yourself by trashing Christ's Church.

I just told you the vatican itself admitted their killings? What possible thing can you provide me with to refute that? lol. THEY ARE SAYING IT THEMSELVES.

And no, no real person having the spirit of God has committed murder while having the spirit. Read my post on http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-ability-to-stop-sinning-powered-by-the-spirit.7919151/ .

 

[Light of the East]

One can love and one can hate. Do you not love your mother, yet do you not yourself hate the devil as well? God loves, and God hates. He chooses to love whoever he wants to love. Be it hate or detest, it conveys the same thing, REJECTION. God rejected Esau before he was even born and had even done anything, whether good or bad.

No, God does not love and hate. God IS love. God cannot do anything but love because that is the very essence of who and what He IS. To choose to love and choose to hate means that these actions are something which is not a part of what you are.

But God IS love...therefore, it is confusing to say that love can hate. It is like saying that a dog can live underwater or a cow can fly. Ontology determines outcome. Ontologically, God IS love...therefore, we have to work around that foundation of His being.

 

[cgaviria]

Leaning on your own understanding, essentially saying my scripture trumps your scripture. All you are doing is saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh! I saw no refutation of anything. Nothing I posted was from outside the scripture. I showed what the Jews of Jesus' time believed about hell, from scripture, and how what Jesus taught, from scripture, supported that view. You so-called "logic,""dissection," etc. is nothing but your own unsupported opinion.

Actually it is you leaning on your own understanding because YOU STILL haven't refuted the two verses I provided you with. Geeezzzzzzzz. If you can show me IN SCRIPTURE right now that I am wrong, I will change my view. Refute the two scriptures I just showed you. What is your logic concerning them.

 

[Light of the East]

I just told you the vatican itself admitted their killings? What possible thing can you provide me with to refute that? lol. THEY ARE SAYING IT THEMSELVES.

And no, no real person having the spirit of God has committed murder while having the spirit. Read my post on http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-ability-to-stop-sinning-powered-by-the-spirit.7919151/ .

You ask for source. Did you read what I posted?

Suppose you give me your sources which say that A.) the Church murdered anyone B.) the Church murdered millions.

I'll be waiting.

 

[cgaviria]

No, God does not love and hate. God IS love. God cannot do anything but love because that is the very essence of who and what He IS. To choose to love and choose to hate means that these actions are something which is not a part of what you are.

But God IS love...therefore, it is confusing to say that love can hate. It is like saying that a dog can live underwater or a cow can fly. Ontology determines outcome. Ontologically, God IS love...therefore, we have to work around that foundation of His being.

You're view is philosophical, which subsequently is not scriptural, although you base your view on one scripture that is true, but ignore plenty of others that show other things that God is. You can't just take one verse, God is love, and then base your entire theology on it and ignore other scriptures. God also detests. God also rejects. God chooses. Many other things. You have to read all the scriptures to discern who he is.

 

[cgaviria]

You ask for source. Did you read what I posted?

Suppose you give me your sources which say that A.) the Church murdered anyone B.) the Church murdered millions.

I'll be waiting.

I did read it. I don't know the exact number of people they killed, but I do know they HAVE KILLED.

 

[Light of the East]

Here. I did your work for you.

Notice one thing in this Internet page. All the quotes are from books written in the 1800's, a time of virulent anti-Catholicism and utterly bigoted hatred. Therefore, these quotes are suspect at best, just as the publisher of ROMAN CATHOLICISM found out when he researched the "facts" that Lorraine Boettner put in his trashy book of lies about the Catholic church.

Has the Church been 100% pure? No, of course not. It is filled with sinners, just as the nation of Israel was filled with sinners. Yet both are congregations of God's people, for better or for worse.

Now....if you can tell me where I can go to get the Eucharist outside the Catholic faith, I will be glad to convert, for Jesus said "Except ye eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood...ye have not life." According to Jesus, I need the Eucharist to obtain eternal life...and this is what the Church, both in the Greek East and the Roman West, has taught for 2,000 years.

 

[Light of the East]

I did read it. I don't know the exact number of people they killed, but I do know they HAVE KILLED.

Yes. But you don't know why they killed, do you?

For instance, after decades of the Muslims killing innocent pilgrims who were simply going to Jerusalem on pilgrimage, the Church said "That's enough" and Pope Urban I set out on the first Crusade to kill the Muslims who had been murdering Christians in that area.

But to read the accounts that the non-Catholics put up, one would think that one day the pope simply decided it would be great fun to just go to Jerusalem and randomly kill any non-Catholics found there for no particular reason other than being a devil on the papal throne.

What would you have done? Your people being slaughtered by pagan butchers. What would you have done?

 

[cgaviria]

Here. I did your work for you.

Notice one thing in this Internet page. All the quotes are from books written in the 1800's, a time of virulent anti-Catholicism and utterly bigoted hatred. Therefore, these quotes are suspect at best, just as the publisher of ROMAN CATHOLICISM found out when he researched the "facts" that Lorraine Boettner put in his trashy book of lies about the Catholic church.

Has the Church been 100% pure? No, of course not. It is filled with sinners, just as the nation of Israel was filled with sinners. Yet both are congregations of God's people, for better or for worse.

Now....if you can tell me where I can go to get the Eucharist outside the Catholic faith, I will be glad to convert, for Jesus said "Except ye eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood...ye have not life." According to Jesus, I need the Eucharist to obtain eternal life...and this is what the Church, both in the Greek East and the Roman West, has taught for 2,000 years.

The Eucharist doesn't grant eternal life. Jesus Christ does. The Eucharist is a symbol that the brethren were instructed to follow, but it is not itself the thing that grants eternal life.

 

[Light of the East]

I did read it. I don't know the exact number of people they killed, but I do know they HAVE KILLED.

Why do I get the sense that you are an X-Catholic?

 

[cgaviria]

Yes. But you don't know why they killed, do you?

For instance, after decades of the Muslims killing innocent pilgrims who were simply going to Jerusalem on pilgrimage, the Church said "That's enough" and Pope Urban I set out on the first Crusade to kill the Muslims who had been murdering Christians in that area.

But to read the accounts that the non-Catholics put up, one would think that one day the pope simply decided it would be great fun to just go to Jerusalem and randomly kill any non-Catholics found there for no particular reason other than being a devil on the papal throne.

What would you have done? Your people being slaughtered by pagan butchers. What would you have done?

It doesn't matter why they killed. They killed, plain and simple. You do realize you are excusing their killing actions. No where in scripture has Jesus Christ instructed his people to kill. Just by mere virtue of that they have committed murder and have blood on their hands. Theres just not going around it buddy.

 

[cgaviria]

Why do I get the sense that you are an X-Catholic?

I am not an x-catholic although as a baby I was baptized in it. But from from the time that I have memory I have always opposed the catholic church.

 

[Light of the East]

The Eucharist doesn't grant eternal life. Jesus Christ does. The Eucharist is a symbol that the brethren were instructed to follow, but it is not itself the thing that grants eternal life.

Oh really!?!?!? That ain't what Jesus said. For someone who claims that Scripture is an integral and important part of his life, you are pretty choosy over what you will and won't believe, aren't you?

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life. (Not "I represent" the bread of life...I AM) 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. (He calls Himself the Bread of Life) 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (Jesus says that He is "living bread" and that the bread is His flesh)52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (Now here's a clue - the Jews knew He was speaking in literal terms, didn't they?) 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (Pretty plain language here. This is what the Church understood for 1500 years until Baptist and Protestant heretics came along!) 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Wait! What happened to "faith alone?" Jesus says you MUST eat His Flesh and drink His Blood) 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (Dude! What more does He have to say? This is so clear a child could understand it - but a Protestant somehow does not!) 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

 

[Light of the East]

It doesn't matter why they killed. They killed, plain and simple. You do realize you are excusing their killing actions. No where in scripture has Jesus Christ instructed his people to kill. Just by mere virtue of that they have committed murder and have blood on their hands. Theres just not going around it buddy.

So you are against self-defense and protecting one's people?