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simplegifts
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I agree a prophet is not all about prophecy. Paul was a prophet - a teacher.
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simplegifts
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Yes but to me and every Christian, he is a saviour, the Saviour, by his teachings and actions.
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That is irrelevant to the question of whether or not He is the Messiah and He can only be the Messiah in relationship to the Jews.
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Arthra
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Re. Jesus as Messiah...
I would agree that the mission of Jesus as Messiah was for the Jews and in fulfillment of prophecy, etc. We can also hold that the message or teaching of Jesus was also a universal one..
"The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth."
I would agree that the mission of Jesus as Messiah was for the Jews and in fulfillment of prophecy, etc. We can also hold that the message or teaching of Jesus was also a universal one..
"The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth."
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Ridiculous statement really!! Many people believe so because-Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Look how the event ends-28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
There are more examples of Christ healing non-Jews in the Bible, just pick up the book and read it.
John 4 not only shows Jesus teaching Samaritans but doing something radical for the times - talking to and teaching the Samaritan woman.
We read about Christians having been grafted onto the olive tree in Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
We know that Jesus send the disciples to baptize and teach all nations
What many do not understand but what is so obvious if a person reads the entire Gospel is that Jesus needed to go to the Jews first because they are the ones who who would understand the Laws, the stories in the Old Testament, even who YHWH was. There was a sequence of events.
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simplegifts
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LOL, too funny!! I know!! Did you read what dlamberth said, A prophet to me is not about telling the future or making projections or anything like that. It's about people who have God so alive and vibrant with in their souls and in their reality that they are able to open to God such that God speaks through them. What prophets speak about is making God a reality.
I agree with what dlamberth said. Paul was a teacher, a prophet hand picked by Jesus.
Old Testament definition of prophet-the spokesman, speaker for God.
New Testament definition of prophet-interpreter, spokesman, pleads the cause of God
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simplegifts
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If a person were to read the Bible they would find the Hebrew word used for prophet is נָבִיא nabiy' and the Greek word used is προφήτης prophētēs. Searching verses for these words a person can find examples of who is called a prophet.
There are also the words seer-stargazer and Apostle-Christian teachers, messenger which are a bit more straightforward. It can be a bit confusing-1 Samuel 9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)
In Exodus we see Moses as the person seeing/hearing the visions but it is the prophet who relays the messages to the people.
Exodus 7:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land
In Numbers we see a prophet being spoken to by God and seeing visions in a dream.
Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Second type of prophet = seer
Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
We see Paul having a prophetic event in Acts. Paul later mentions the 2 offices -20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Paul as prophet -
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paul claims the office of Apostle for himself as opposed to a prophet because of the issue of authority, the need to be teacher of the Gentile communities.
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That denotes a change in language, not meaning.
Okay. And where exactly is Paul called prophetes?
That would only be prophesy if he claimed he received that knowledge through a revelation.
That is clearly not a prophesy since Paul claims this is based on scripture not direct revelation.
Again, only a prophesy if he claims he received this directly from God.
That's the reason he claims to be an Apostle certainly, but as for not claiming to be prophet, this is pure speculation on your part.
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Have you read Acts 9 and 22 concerning Paul's meeting with Christ?
2 Peter3:15 Bear in mind that our Lords patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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Yes.
2 Peter is a second century pseudepigrapha text. In other words, Peter didn't write it. It was one of the last texts to be accepted into the New Testament canon, there was so much controversy surrounding it.
"Also indicative of the second century is the appeal to a collection of Pauline letters from which "statements that are hard to understand" have been misinterpreted by the false teachers, and to further normative writings which inlcude not only the OT but also the developing NT (3:16). In view of the difficulty in understanding "scripture," and its ambiguity, II Pet offers the thesis that "no prophetic scripture allows an individual interpretation" because men have spoken under the power of the Holy Spirit (1:20 f). Since not every Christian has the Spirit, the explanation of Scripture is reserved for the ecclesiastical teaching office. Accordingly we find ourselves without doubt far beyond the time of Peter and into the epoch of "early Catholocism."
It is certain, therefore, that II Pet does not originate with Peter, and this is today widely acknowledged. This point of view can be confirmed through two further facts.
5. As in the case of the Pastorals, the pseudonymity in II Pet is carried through consistently by means of heavy stress on the Petrine authorship (see above, p. 430). The auther adduces his authority not only on the basis of the fiction of a "testament of Peter" but also by reference back to I Pet in 3:1 f, intending II Pet only to "recall" (1:12, 15; 3:1 f) what was said in I Pet to the extent that it corresponds to the interpretation which the author of II Pet wants to give to I Pet. This appeal to the apostolic authority of Peter and his letter is obviously occasioned by the sharpening of the Gnostic false teaching which is being combated in Jdue, as a result of a consistent denial of the parousia of the false teachers. In this way, the apostle has become the "guarantor of the tradition" (1:12 f), and as a consequence of the abandonment of the near expectation (3:8) the parousia is stripped of its christological character and functions as an anthropologically oriented doctrine of rewards. In its consistent quality the pseudonymity betrays the late origins of II Pet.
6. In spite of its heavy stress on Petrine authorship, II Pet is nowhwere mentioned in the second century. The apologists, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, and the Muratorian Canon are completely silent about it. Its first attestation is in Origen, but according to him the letter is contested (αμφιβαλλεται
. Eusebius lists it among the antilegomena. . . Even down to the fourth century II Pet was largely unknown or not recognized as canonical."2 Peter
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Arthra
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I really am not so sure I want to enter into the discussion about whether Paul claimed to be a "prophet" but as this is generally a thread concerning Baha'i Faith it might be appropriate to suggest a Baha'i teaching re. "Prophets"... Abdul-Baha... suggested in a book entitled "Some Answered Questions" that there were two kinds of prophets...
Question.—How many kinds of Prophets are there?
Answer.—Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.
The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.
The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.
The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muḥammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent 165 Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.
With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 164-166
Question.—How many kinds of Prophets are there?
Answer.—Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.
The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.
The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.
The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muḥammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent 165 Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.
With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 164-166
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jackcv said: ↑
Good question, Smaneck. [Where Did Jesus say he was the Savior?]
Matt 16:13-17: He asked Peter "Whom do men say I, the son of man, am?", then "Whom say ye that I am?" Following Peter's representative statement that Jesus was the Christ, the Savior said "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20; John 6:66-71)
Smaneck answered:
But Peter said Jesus was the Messiah, not that He was the Savior of the World. Those are two different things.
But Peter said Jesus was the Messiah, not that He was the Savior of the World. Those are two different things.
Later he was emphatic in answering the chief priest's and Pilate's leading questions with direct, pointed, and unequivocal answer "Thou sayest it."
You say: a Jewish idiom of solemn affirmation, probably the origin of English idiom “You said it!” meaning that is very true.
Smaneck answered:
It is very true that Jesus is the Messiah. Even the Qur'an affirms that.
The idiom seems to call forth the eternal principle that in the mouth of two or three witness shall every word be established. This phrase is not at all evasive. Matt 26:64-65; Mk 14:62-64; Lk 23:3; JST Mk 15:4
In fact, you missed the vital element in the Samaritan incident, John 4:25 - 26.
Smaneck answered:
You do know that Messiah means Anointed One, not Savior?
“Let them see no one as their enemy, or as wishing them ill, but think of all humankind as their friends; regarding the alien as an intimate, the stranger as a companion, staying free of prejudice, drawing no lines.”
Now, I ask Smaneck, LoAmmi, and every other critic: what is so objectionable about a Savior of the world?
As parents, we often pay for the mistakes of our children. This both binds our hearts to them, and helps us teach them to give of themselves for others. We give to the poor, even the careless, addicted poor, paying for their mistakes. We pay even for the deliberate, rebellious misconduct (sins) of our children and others.
So what is so hard about God setting the example? What is more important for the Messiah to do? Anointed to do what? What makes the Messiah so special if not to be the prototype of the "love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men, wherefore it is the most desirable above all things...and the most joyous to the soul"? (1 Ne 11:21-23)
"for the Lord (HaShem, right?) is God, and without Him there is no Savior."
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I don't have a problem with the notion of vicarious atonement per se, as I've indicated in previous posts. I do have a problem when it is made into an exclusive claim. Also, it is important to realize what claims Jesus did or did not make and to distinguish those claims from by his followers later one. As a historian I'm picky about that. The majority of Christians think Messiah means savior and they are simply wrong.
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Nothing but the job is already filled and the future king of Israel, who we refer to as the Messiah (as opposed to a messiah) is not the holder of the job. HaShem is and I don't believe the future king to be HaShem. He is no man.
Generally speaking, we aren't the ones that made him so special in many ways. Some Hellenized Jews and later Christianity expanded the role of the Messiah to be more than what the Prophets describe. The hope in Judaism is far more for the Messianic age rather than the Messiah himself, but since the Messiah comes with the Messianic age they are tied at the hip so to say. I've reminded people often that the Tanach never refers to this future king as "HaMoshiach" but tends to use "David" or "son of David"
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Well, you are right about the literal, narrow definition of the word "messiah". And with a small m, there is no exclusive claim. What Jesus claims is that he is HaShem, Jehovah, the Messiah (capital M), and the Savior. He clearly states it, repeatedly, and has witnesses who testify not only of His claims, but of the fulfillment of many fundamentals already.
So, you have no problem with the notion of vicarious atonement per se, what is your problem with the notion that the Messiah would perform it, and that God could be the Messiah who accomplished an infinite Atonement? For the Lord is God, and without Him there is no Savior.
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My recollection is that the words "Hashem" and Jehovah occur nowhere in the NT. When He is accused of claiming to be God, He points out that the scriptures say "Ye are gods." (Mormons must love that one!) Nor can I find any place where Jesus refers to Himself as savior.
Ultimately I believe repentance is the only thing God requires to forgive our sins. I believe that something like the Crucifixion was necessary to demonstrate the depth of God's love and bring about repentance. It is therefore based on our own needs not some abstract need for God to extract justice. That being the case, then I don't see this has something that would happen once and never again. God would try again and again to reach us throughout history.
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