Are Jesuits Fundamentalists?

[BobRyan]

As noted on page 1 --

The Pope said this

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68645817, member: 235244"]Agreed -- I don't think the "not too zealous" theme fits the Jesuits - nor does it fit any truly "fundamentalist" group that one might identify across all major world religions.

The reason I bring this up - is because the Pope in his speech today before the U.S. congress - insisted that the world is a dangerous place and we need to keep a close eye on "fundamentalists" in all religious groups, both Christian and non-christian.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/nation-and-world/transcript-pope-francis-speech-to-congress-full-text

=================================
The Roman Catholic Pope said:

"All of us are quite aware of, and deeply worried by, the disturbing social and political situation of the world today. Our world is increasingly a place of violent conflict, hatred and brutal atrocities, committed even in the name of God and of religion. We know that no religion is immune from forms of individual delusion or ideological extremism. This means that we must be especially attentive to every type of fundamentalism, whether religious or of any other kind. A delicate balance is required to combat violence perpetrated in the name of a religion, an ideology or an economic system, while also safeguarding religious freedom, intellectual freedom and individual freedoms. But there is another temptation which we must especially guard against: the simplistic reductionism which sees only good or evil; or, if you will, the righteous and sinners."[/QUOTE]

Now I am sure HE meant to include every flavor of even CHRISTIAN fundamentalism in view - particularly the one that some people are are complaining about as that which should not be considered in the same light as Muslim, Hindu, etc "fundamentalism".

In fact it is entirely possible that the Pope would wish to exclude Jesuits from that Christian and Muslim set of "Fundamentalists" - but I don't know how he can do it given the facts that we see regarding Jesuits themselves.

Which makes it rather surprising that the current pope would even bring the subject up!!

 

[Athanasias]

If a Christian takes up a motto that the "ends justifies the means" -- are they moderate or simply liberal fundamentalists?

If a Christian group claims to be "a corpse" when it comes to questioning or second guessing their "General" - are they considered moderate or loosely liberal fundamentalists?

Taking vows of poverty and celibacy in service to Christianity - is that moderate or very liberal fundamentalism?

Did Pope Clement IV describe Jesuits as liberal or moderate fundamentalists?

in Christ,

Bob

All I gotta say is

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for reminding me - that quote in the OP should have said XIV.

like this
===========================================================
If a Christian takes up a motto that the "ends justifies the means" -- are they moderate or simply liberal fundamentalists?

If a Christian group claims to be "a corpse" when it comes to questioning or second guessing their "General" - are they considered moderate or loosely liberal fundamentalists?

Taking vows of poverty and celibacy in service to Christianity - is that moderate or very liberal fundamentalism?

Did Pope Clement XIV describe Jesuits as liberal or moderate fundamentalists?

 

[Meowzltov]

Not sure about them being "fundies", but they sure appear as mysterious as the Illuminati.....imho

Angels and Demons is FICTION.

 

[Meowzltov]

When I click on the EWTN link that I gave you in that previous post -- I see this -- as for why they are repeating it - as it appears to come from a questioner to EWTN - you may ask them.

And you read the link, and it is just SOME PERSON asking ewtn. You neglected to give ewtn's response, which was blatantly dishonest of you. I'm really really disappointed in you.

 

[Meowzltov]

At one time in history, the Jesuits were fundamentalist. However, today they are moderates, some even liberal.

 

[BobRyan]

At one time in history, the Jesuits were fundamentalist. However, today they are moderates, some even liberal.

Jesuits had the unnusual dispensation of being allowed to read the "forbidden books" -- he Index Librorum Prohibitorum,

In the Holy Roman Empire book censorship, which preceded publication of the Index, came under control of the Jesuits at the end of the 16th century,

And they were supposed to blend into their environment to influence non-Catholic entities in favor of the Papacy. That might have produced some liberals.

 

[BobRyan]

Scroll down to the bottom of the EWTN page and you will see this:

Answer by Dr. William Carroll on 05-22-2002:
You are spreading lies and calumny. There is not and never was any such ceremony as you are describing. The Jesuits simply swear to be always faithful to the Pope, not to exterminate anybody. - Dr. Carroll

The Heading of the page also makes it clear that somebody is asking a question:

Question from Andy Doria2 on 05-19-2002:
Dear Dr. Carroll,
I was told by a Protestant friend of mine that the following is the Jesuit order's oath.
I find it hard to believe. Can you shed some light on this.

Indeed they chose to publish it - and then to disclaim it without offering any evidence. I did not post that to criticize their methods. Just stating that they posted it.

 

[Meowzltov]

And they were supposed to blend into their environment to influence non-Catholic entities in favor of the Papacy. That might have produced some liberals.

The advent of Jesuits becoming more moderate, some even liberal, is more of a modern occurrence.

 

[Rhamiel]

It starts off as an attempt by a few Jesuits to save their brothers in the order from persecution and possible death.

the Illuminati was not started by the Jesuits
it was started by a man who as a child and up through university had Jesuit teachers
we can see that Weishaupt was influenced by the Jesuits in some ways
his love of structure and strict adherence to authority, his love of philosophy (the Jesuits were some of the most educated men in all of Europe)
but we also see that Weishaupt was also in love with the Enlightenment and Deism and other more secular philosophies


about the "Jesuit oath"
it was submitted to Congress because a congressional candidate who lost to a Catholic was a sore looser and wanted to get in one more jab
http://www.reocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/jesuit_oath.html

there is no hard historical proof that such an oath is real
also, common sense should show it is not a real thing
we have had many Jesuits who sadly leave the faith, and they do not claim that they took such an oath even though they are no longer Catholic or in some cases even Christian

 

[BobRyan]

about the "Jesuit oath" it was submitted to Congress because a congressional candidate who lost to a Catholic was a sore looser and wanted to get in one more jab
http://www.reocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/jesuit_oath.html

there is no hard historical proof that such an oath is real also, common sense should show it is not a real thing
we have had many Jesuits who sadly leave the faith, and they do not claim that they took such an oath even though they are no longer Catholic or in some cases even Christian

Certainly it is true that there must be a number of ex-Jesuit priests out there.

And certainly it is true that if none of them claimed that oath as legit - it would seem hard to believe that it could be real when not one of the ex priests swear to it.

===============================================================

Ceremony Of Induction And Extreme Oath Of The Jesuits


In 1981, one of our heroes, Alberto Rivera, disclosed the oath he took as a professed Jesuit. We read:

(Given to a Jesuit of minor rank when he is to be elevated to a position of command.)


Superior Speaks:

“My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler among the Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren: to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the reformers, to be a reformer; among the Huguenots (French Protestants) to be a Huguenot: among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist: among the Protestants (those who protest and disagree with the Roman Catholic institution), generally to be a Protestant: and obtaining their confidence to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence (violent emotion) in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among the Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.


“You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealously and hatred between states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in communities, provinces and countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace;


“To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly in concert with your brother Jesuit who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected;


“Only that the church might be the gainer in the end in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace, and that the ends justify the means.


“You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source: to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliament and legislatures, and in the judiciaries and councils of State, and to ‘be all things to all men’, for the Pope’s sake, whose servants we are unto death.


“You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice (one who has no training), a neophyte (a newly ordained priest), and have served as a coadjutor (worked as a helper), confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the army of Loyola and in the service of the Pope.


“You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated (made secret or holy) his labors with the blood of the heretic; for ‘without the shedding of blood no man can be saved.’
“I, _____, now, in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed Michael the Archangel, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul and all the saints and sacred hosts of heaven....


“I, furthermore, promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do.


“That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard (a dagger) or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or superior of the brotherhood of the holy faith, of the Society of Jesus.”

[Double-Cross: Alberto, Part 2, 1981]

 

[Meowzltov]

In 1981, one of our heroes, Alberto Rivera, disclosed the oath he took as a professed Jesuit. We read:

An exposé by Gary Metz in Cornerstone magazine as well as another one in Christianity Today questioned many of Rivera's claims about his life, alleging that he was a fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Rivera

 

[Rhamiel]

Alberto Rivera claimed to have a Ph.D and other advanced degrees but it has been proven that he never had time to get those degrees
he was never really a priest, he has been proven to be a fraud

 

[BobRyan]

there is no hard historical proof that such an oath is real
also, common sense should show it is not a real thing
we have had many Jesuits who sadly leave the faith, and they do not claim that they took such an oath even though they are no longer Catholic or in some cases even Christian

Certainly it is true that there must be a number of ex-Jesuit priests out there.

And certainly it is true that if none of them claimed that oath as legit - it would seem hard to believe that it could be real when not one of the ex priests swear to it.

===============================================================

Ceremony Of Induction And Extreme Oath Of The Jesuits


In 1981, one of our heroes, Alberto Rivera, disclosed the oath he took as a professed Jesuit. We read:
...
[Double-Cross: Alberto, Part 2, 1981]

Alberto Rivera claimed to have a Ph.D and other advanced degrees but it has been proven that he never had time to get those degrees
he was never really a priest, he has been proven to be a fraud

I see -- so "yes" we would expect these ex-Jesuits to come out with a statment about the oath if it were real - but of course if they did that - they would be a fraud.

 

[BobRyan]

An exposé by Gary Metz in Cornerstone magazine as well as another one in Christianity Today questioned many of Rivera's claims about his life, alleging that he was a fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Rivera

"Cornerstone was a newspaper and later a magazine published by Jesus People USA, focusing on topics of evangelical Christian faith and engagement with politics and culture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_(magazine)


Cornerstone - by "Jesus People USA".

Jesus People USA (JPUSA) is a Christian intentional community of 400 people [1] in Uptown, on the North Side of Chicago, Illinois. It was founded in 1972,[2] coming out of Jesus People Milwaukee in the Jesus Movement, it is the largest of the few remaining communes from that movement.

If anyone should know whether Rivera was an actual Jesuit - it is the "Jesus People USA"

 

[BobRyan]

They create Georgetown while banned from existence by Pope Clement XIV

"Jesuit principles guided Bishop John Carroll when he first announced his plans for Georgetown, plans at once modest and grand. In a letter to friends, dated 1788, he wrote:

“We shall begin the building of our Academy this summer. …On this academy is built all my hope of permanency and success to our holy religion in the United States.”

Carroll does not have an “S.J.” after his name because Pope Clement XIV suppressed the Society of Jesus in July 1773. It was not until the early 1800s that the Jesuits were re-established."
https://www.georgetown.edu/news/the-jesuit-mission.html

Is that liberal or fundamentalist in your view??

 

[Rhamiel]

I see -- so "yes" we would expect these ex-Jesuits to come out with a statment about the oath if it were real - but of course if they did that - they would be a fraud.

you choose to present someone who was wanted for being a fraud in Spain, Florida, and New Jersey
he was a conman and a pickpocket
there is no solid proof that he was ever a priest of any kind
he lied about his sister being a nun that he rescued from a convent in England
you can from her work history and see that she did not live in a convent and there is so source other then Alberto that claims she was a Nun

Jesuits are known for being well educated
this guy was a con-man who went around cheating people, there is no way that he went to school long enough to get a degree
the man is a fake

 

[Meowzltov]

I see -- so "yes" we would expect these ex-Jesuits to come out with a statment about the oath if it were real - but of course if they did that - they would be a fraud.

I see you don't like it that your one source was a fraud.

 

[Meowzltov]

"Cornerstone was a newspaper and later a magazine published by Jesus People USA, focusing on topics of evangelical Christian faith and engagement with politics and culture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_(magazine)


Cornerstone - by "Jesus People USA".

Jesus People USA (JPUSA) is a Christian intentional community of 400 people [1] in Uptown, on the North Side of Chicago, Illinois. It was founded in 1972,[2] coming out of Jesus People Milwaukee in the Jesus Movement, it is the largest of the few remaining communes from that movement.

If anyone should know whether Rivera was an actual Jesuit - it is the "Jesus People USA"

The point is that both Cornerstone and Christianity Today are non-denominational Christian magazines of high quality. I personally can testify to the fact that Christianity Today has striven for an objective stance and scholarship in its reporting over the decades. Neither magazine is "pro-Catholic." Why would you not accept them as sources?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesuits had the unnusual dispensation of being allowed to read the "forbidden books" -- he Index Librorum Prohibitorum,

In the Holy Roman Empire book censorship, which preceded publication of the Index, came under control of the Jesuits at the end of the 16th century,

And they were supposed to blend into their environment to influence non-Catholic entities in favor of the Papacy. That might have produced some liberals.

I should have stayed awake in Latin class........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (English: List of Prohibited Books) was a list of publications deemed heretical, anti-clerical or lascivious, and therefore banned by the Catholic Church.[1] A first version (the Pauline Index) was promulgated by Pope Paul IV in 1559, which Paul F. Grendler believed marked "the turning-point for the freedom of enquiry in the Catholic world", and which lasted less than a year, being then replaced by what was called the Tridentine Index (because it was authorized at the Council of Trent), which relaxed aspects of the Pauline Index that had been criticized and had prevented its acceptance.[1]


Main article: List of authors and works on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum


René Descartes went on the Index in 1663.

The Index included a number of authors and intellectuals whose works are widely read today in most leading universities and are now considered as the foundations of science, e.g. Kepler's New Astronomy, his Epitome of Copernican Astronomy, and his World Harmony were quickly placed on the Index after their publication.[69] Other noteworthy intellectual figures on the Index include Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Montaigne, Voltaire, Denis Diderot, Victor Hugo, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, André Gide, Emanuel Swedenborg, Baruch Spinoza, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, René Descartes, Francis Bacon, Thomas Browne, John Milton, John Locke, Nicolaus Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Blaise Pascal, and Hugo Grotius. Charles Darwin's works were notably never included.[70]