What's in it for HaSatan?

[Iscah]

In an effort to understand reality, I'm deeply interested in learning more about God and the interactions He has with His creation and vice versa. So I would like your thoughts on the issue of HaSatan. What's in it for him? Why does he do what he does? What is his role? Is he just a fallen angel or is he also (willingly or unwillingly) God's prosecuting attorney? Why would he rebel, especially after being gifted with such wisdom and enjoying such intimacy with God? More importantly, what does he get out of rebelling? It seems to me as futile as a child's temper tantrum and I'm not gifted with even a fraction of the intelligence of the heavenly host. I often hear that HaSatan just wants the entire world to worship him instead of God. While I agree with that statement, it feels a bit incomplete. Why would he go through the trouble of doing all this if it's all in vain? With his intelligence, he must understand that. Also, what does HaSatan's behavior say about intelligence as an attribute?

This is probably all part of a larger Biblical subtext on the futility of pride and rebelling against God and His ways. But I'd still love to hear what you think.

Also, I've heard a few people say they believe that, in the end, God will redeem every aspect of His creation, including the fallen angels and the nephilim. I think the concept is interesting (although I don't know if it's actually Biblical), so I'd like to hear what you guys think about that as well.

Shalom, guys! Happy Sukkot!

 

[visionary]

He said He wanted God's position... be like the most high... Receive worship.
It shows what he is after.. worship
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Some of the things that his worship system incorporate
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

His ultimate worship system...
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Very vengeful

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

But I am not worried because you know how it ends...

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I think this might be at least as complex as asking "what was Hitler's motivation ?"

There's probably many answers.

An interesting tradition found in Judaism (and Islam) teaches that God created Adam, then God told Michael to tell the other angels to bow before Adam. Satan did not bow, and ultimately decided to do the opposite of God as much as possible, since he felt God was asking him to do the opposite of truth. Since he thought only God should be bowed before, and that he should not bow before Adam, he felt God was a god of oppositeness, and decided to always do "opposite" things.

Hence he teaches men to worship themselves, or other men, or other created things, as opposted to the Creator, since he was so offended or confused when the Creator asked him to bow before a creation (Adam). A creation hierarchically below him (Hebrews 2:7).


There are of course many other explanations. Some currents of OJ view the Hasatan as basically a servant of God who is not actually evil.

Scripture says Satan is associated with the power of death, hence it implies he is the Malak Hamavet, (angel of death, the grim reaper) which is a common tradition in Judaism as well.

"This is probably all part of a larger Biblical subtext on the futility of pride and rebelling against God and His ways."

Yes.

 

[sahjimira]

Pride which God hates personified in Satan. I've often wondered the same since he knows what the end
will b..maybe his eenormous pride makes him think he actually change things and sin. God did use him as found in Job. That is interesting. God even is the One who pointed out Job to Satan. God had something to teach Job and God knows best how each one of us learns but He was with Job the whole time. Job did learn and is an example to us that we may know God in our minds but not our hearts.. aslo Be is with us always.

 

[Elihoenai]

Be watchful that you are not bound up with the Serpent.

The subtlety of the Serpent is such that the Serpent speaks against the Serpent while promoting the Serpent.



Yirmeyah 50:24 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

24 I have laid a trap for thee, and thou art indeed caught, O Bavel, and thou wast not aware; thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against Hashem.




Genesis 3:14-15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

14 And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, `Because thou hast done this, cursed [art] thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;

15 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'




Matthew 16:21-23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

21 From that time began Jesus to shew to his disciples that it is necessary for him to go away to Jerusalem, and to suffer many things from the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be put to death, and the third day to rise.

22 And having taken him aside, Peter began to rebuke him, saying, `Be kind to thyself, sir; this shall not be to thee;'

23 and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'

 

[Lulav]

In an effort to understand reality, I'm deeply interested in learning more about God and the interactions He has with His creation and vice versa. So I would like your thoughts on the issue of HaSatan. What's in it for him? Why does he do what he does? What is his role? Is he just a fallen angel or is he also (willingly or unwillingly) God's prosecuting attorney? Why would he rebel, especially after being gifted with such wisdom and enjoying such intimacy with God? More importantly, what does he get out of rebelling? It seems to me as futile as a child's temper tantrum and I'm not gifted with even a fraction of the intelligence of the heavenly host. I often hear that HaSatan just wants the entire world to worship him instead of God. While I agree with that statement, it feels a bit incomplete. Why would he go through the trouble of doing all this if it's all in vain? With his intelligence, he must understand that. Also, what does HaSatan's behavior say about intelligence as an attribute?

This is probably all part of a larger Biblical subtext on the futility of pride and rebelling against God and His ways. But I'd still love to hear what you think.

Also, I've heard a few people say they believe that, in the end, God will redeem every aspect of His creation, including the fallen angels and the nephilim. I think the concept is interesting (although I don't know if it's actually Biblical), so I'd like to hear what you guys think about that as well.

Shalom, guys! Happy Sukkot!

May I suggest you read Ecclesiastes as a start?

King Solomon was the only human we have on record that G-d imbued with the most wisdom. If you read it carefully you will see how one with even more wisdom and beauty could fall so far. After you read it, let me know and I will give you my analysis I have developed over the years of the purpose and where we are in all this.

 

[Lulav]

I think this might be at least as complex as asking "what was Hitler's motivation ?"

There's probably many answers.

An interesting tradition found in Judaism (and Islam) teaches that God created Adam, then God told Michael to tell the other angels to bow before Adam. Satan did not bow, and ultimately decided to do the opposite of God as much as possible, since he felt God was asking him to do the opposite of truth. Since he thought only God should be bowed before, and that he should not bow before Adam, he felt God was a god of oppositeness, and decided to always do "opposite" things.

Hence he teaches men to worship themselves, or other men, or other created things, as opposted to the Creator, since he was so offended or confused when the Creator asked him to bow before a creation (Adam). A creation hierarchically below him (Hebrews 2:7).


There are of course many other explanations. Some currents of OJ view the Hasatan as basically a servant of God who is not actually evil.

Scripture says Satan is associated with the power of death, hence it implies he is the Malak Hamavet, (angel of death, the grim reaper) which is a common tradition in Judaism as well.

I should think that would be based on this:

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I should think that would be based on this:

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Actually I think it relates to this passage:

Ps. 8:
5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

We read that despite being lower than the angels, all things are under his (Adam's) feet, particularly the beasts of the field. The serpent is called the most clever of the beasts of the field, and it says the son of man (2nd Adam) will step upon the serpent.

 

[Lulav]

This is part of the creation story

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

And this is a reiteration of it

Ps. 8:
5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

So what is the difference? The next verse following what I posted (which was Gen 1:27 is this

28 And God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.'
​

So the only difference is that I gave the initial telling of it.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"So what is the difference?"

The difference is the actual verses.

Ps. 8:
5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

We read that despite being lower than the angels, v.5
all things are under his (Adam's) feet, v.6
particularly the beasts of the field, v.7.

The serpent is called the most clever of the beasts of the field, Ge. 3, and the same chapter says the son of man (2nd Adam) will step upon the serpent.

This relates very directly to the story of Michael telling Satan to bow/prostrate before Adam.

 

[sickntired771]

What I don't understand is if he knows how it's gonna end why is he doing this? He knows he can't defeat God so what's his gain to cause problems in the meanwhile.

 

[danny ski]

What I don't understand is if he knows how it's gonna end why is he doing this? He knows he can't defeat God so what's his gain to cause problems in the meanwhile.

What I don't understand is that there is a belief that there is an angel that actually turned against Gd and is planning to go to war against the all knowing, all powerful and all seeing Creator. I find the idea of the satanic contender incredulous.

 

[Lulav]

What I don't understand is that there is a belief that there is an angel that actually turned against Gd and is planning to go to war against the all knowing, all powerful and all seeing Creator. I find the idea of the satanic contender incredulous.

Hey danny! What do you believe about the serpent in the garden and why?

 

[danny ski]

Hey danny! What do you believe about the serpent in the garden and why?

Pretty much what the Torah says. The Torah teaches that Gd alone is the author of good and evil. There's no indication of another supernatural entity being able to oppose Hashem. It's a compelling narrative, good versus evil, but it has no basis in the Torah.

 

[Lulav]

Pretty much what the Torah says. The Torah teaches that Gd alone is the author of good and evil. There's no indication of another supernatural entity being able to oppose Hashem. It's a compelling narrative, good versus evil, but it has no basis in the Torah.

So you believe that G-d created man, pure, unblemished, righteous and then tempted him through the serpent to disobey himself and cause man to be separated from G-d?

I do understand the reasoning of Judaism in answer to the Jews who did believe in a real adversary in the first century but have you even analyzed for yourself the who what when where and why of it all?

 

[danny ski]

So you believe that G-d created man, pure, unblemished, righteous and then tempted him through the serpent to disobey himself and cause man to be separated from G-d?

I do understand the reasoning of Judaism in answer to the Jews who did believe in a real adversary in the first century but have you even analyzed for yourself the who what when where and why of it all?

Not tempted. Tested. One of the main themes of the Torah is Gd testing men. Abraham was tested again and again, and then some more. Obedience being the essence of our belief. The Torah teaches that Gd wants us to make a choice. That's why he gave us free will. As for the first century believes that the Jews may or may not held, I really do not put much stock in them. A part of my family comes from the Eastern European Hasidic background. The range of superstitions(otherwise known as folklore) is amazing. However, that's all it is. And it is universally recognized as such by not making into the main stream of Judaism. The concept of fallen angel or Gd's creation being able to challenge its Creator is not a concept found in the Torah nor, to be perfectly frank, does it make any sense to me.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Even without the NT, the book of Job alone gives a lot of information on the Satan. He is not presented as a neutral or good servant of God. Zechariah backs that up, mentioning Michael and Satan as opposites.

There is obviously nobody who can withstand God. However, Nimrod and Nebuchadnezar and others have tried, in the human realm, and the angels happen to have no more, or less, free will than we humans have.

Some Rabbis teach, and the NT reflects this teaching, that the Satan is the angel of death. I have heard Rabbis describe his size, how he is covered in eyes, how he appeared to Moses to teach him how to make incense, and so on.

The neutralization of the Satan in post 2nd temple Judaism really is reactionalism to Christianity's concept of the devil. To some extent, Judaism defined itself in opposition to Christianity, which included altering or abandoning some traditions that it held prior to the advent of Christianity.

 

[Hoshiyya]

What I don't understand is if he knows how it's gonna end why is he doing this? He knows he can't defeat God so what's his gain to cause problems in the meanwhile.

I don't think he supposes he can "defeat" God, who is intangible and omnipotent. I don't see that narrative in Scripture.

However I think he is probably not of clear mind, and chooses for whatever reason to oppose nature and the law of God, and do "opposite" things.

Imagine a person who has a terminal disease, and knows he will die, so he decides to make his last days a party, not caring about anything else but "living life" as he chooses. He is not a rational being. Yeshua, the Logos, has the power of true wisdom and logic, Satan does not.

He might actually be really, really delusional. Maybe he thinks he is the good guy. Maybe he thinks he is an integral part of the creation, and that if God really wanted him to stop, he would just stop him, so the fact that God does not prevent him is taken as approbation.

 

[Lulav]

Even without the NT, the book of Job alone gives a lot of information on the Satan. He is not presented as a neutral or good servant of God. Zechariah backs that up, mentioning Michael and Satan as opposites.

There is obviously nobody who can withstand God. However, Nimrod and Nebuchadnezar and others have tried, in the human realm, and the angels happen to have no more, or less, free will than we humans have.

Some Rabbis teach,and the NT reflects this teaching, that the Satan is the angel of death. I have heard Rabbis describe his size, how he is covered in eyes, how he appeared to Moses to teach him how to make incense, and so on.

The neutralization of the Satan in post 2nd temple Judaism really is reactionalism to Christianity's concept of the devil. To some extent, Judaism defined itself in opposition to Christianity, which included altering or abandoning some traditions that it held prior to the advent of Christianity.

I was going to post that in my response I must have gotten sidetracked. I've also read that there were references to Ha Satan in Orthodox liturgy but all of these have been taken out of the siddurs of Conservative, Reform, etc.

 

[sickntired771]

Well the analogy to someone knowing they are going to die and doing as they please in hedonism is a good one but even if Satan knows he will be defeated, what is his gain in causing suffering to all? What joy or benefit does he get by causing a child to suffer with cancer or to create a rift in a relationship?