(Moved Challenging ALL hell believers about the afterlife. If you're a true believer, answer this.

[Dardan]

It's not slavery, actually. However, it is not just or fair, or free will at all. (Reply to my 1st sentence)

 

[Dardan]

Dardan, greetings!

The topic of Hell is certainly a tough one, and is very difficult to accept, especially the modern iteration of its understanding in a Protestant, Evangelical stream. For instance, one of a Catholic persuasion would have an easier time with the idea of Purgatory, and a time of refining instead of eternal torment. In any case, your thoughts are intriguing, and I wanted to just add to the conversation a bit if that is alright.

I want to frame my thought process with Deut 30 near the end when Moses is addressing the children of Israel, he talks about life, and death, blessing, and punishment, and in verse 17-19 he says "but if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish. You shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore chose life, that both you and your descendants may live..."

I want to highlight this idea of a choice between life, and death, and between blessing and curse. I want to point out that "hell" is death. Not just because Sheol, the place of the dead is what has been translated as hell, but because it is understood spiritually as the truth death, the second death.

In the garden, we see death first come in, when Adam and Eve disobey. They ate the fruit, which they were told not too, and yes they were deceived, they made a mistake, they didn't understand what they were doing, and in reality they were just lied to. But what we see in God's response is cursing. God curses the serpent, the woman, the man. Yet he doesn't leave them without a way out. He gives them what is called the proto-evangelion, "he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel". But consequence of our rebellion was that humanity no longer had dominion over the earth, but were enslaved to the dominion of sin. Paul writes about this in Romans 6:15-19, that whatever you are enslaved to you are forced to obey, and what you obey indicates whose slave you are. And we were formerly slaves to sin, forced to obey it, leading to our deaths, but Jesus brought about a righteousness to rescue us from slavery to sin to be freed in Righteousness, to obey righteousness that leads to life.

Cain was jealous of Abel, and struck him down, and God punished Cain so that he cried out "my punishment is greater than I can bear!" and God puts a mark on him so that he wouldn't be killed. But those humans continued to grow, so that in later generations around Noah's time, it says "then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" So God sends a flood to punish and destroy every human on earth, save Noah and those with him.

But generations after Noah, the peoples come together and build Babel, the problem of man's wickedness, slavery to sin is back, and so God scatters them, and calls on Abraham. In the promise to Abraham the word "blessing" is used 5 times as a counter to the 5 curses used since the fall of humanity as a way of telling us that in this promise that the fall will be reversed, blessing and not curse will come to all families of the earth. His descendants became a nation enslaved in Egypt, and when Moses lead them out, God punished Egypt with plagues, and miracles, and killed their firstborns, and he drowned their armies in the Red Sea. But when Israel made the idol and turned from their oath to Him, he was going to wipe them out for their evil betrayal when Moses stepped in and pleaded for the people. Still everyone from that Generation died in the wilderness save for Joshua and Caleb because they grumbled against the Lord.

The Canaanites were judged because of their wicked ways, including child sacrifice. And Israel was condemned repeatedly, and judged repeatedly throughout the cycle of the Judges and Kings, culminating in Jerusalem's destruction and total exile. The reason was their unfaithfulness, they turned to idols, to awful detestable acts, and were steeped in wickedness, the rich stole from the poor, and the leaders took bribes, and they turned away from mercy and peace so that Isaiah the prophet cries out about them "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his pleasant plant. He looked for justice, but behold, oppression. For righteousness, but behold a cry for help". The prophets, from Micah/Amos/Hosea/Isaiah/Obadiah to Jeremiah and Ezekiel and others pronounce judgement and punishment for the sins and transgressions of the peoples of the Near East including God's own as well as those who do not know him.

Yet Isaiah prophecies of the final judgement when he says "for behold the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, the earth will also disclose her blood and will no more cover her slain. In that day the Lord with his severe sword, great and strong will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent, and he will slay the reptile that is in the sea." The Lord will punish those who have obeyed and practiced iniquity as a consequence for their actions, and he will punish the one that lead the nations astray, Leviathan, the serpent who first deceived humanity, known as the satan or devil. The ultimate judgement is directed towards him, and all those who followed his lies and acted after his nature will also be punished, but the remnant who trusted in the Lord and walked in His ways will be vindicated and glorified.

When our Lord Jesus walked on earth, he spoke openly against the Pharisees to rebuke their hypocritical and unjust ways, and against the Temple, saying that "not one stone will be left upon another", and it came to pass during the Jewish rebellions when Rome crushed the nation.

From the beginning of our history, until now, and until the culmination at Christ's return, the wicked and unjust people are judged by God not as a final judgement, but as a warning of the final judgement. Fear not death, but the one who can kill you and cast your soul into Gehenna. Every act of judgement is a warning to all to repent and not to follow the path of death, that cursed path of wickedness, "which is adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murder, drunkenness, revelries, unbelief, abominations, sexual immorality, and lying".

The gospel of our Lord Jesus is the truth of the world, the trust that sets people free from slavery to sin, so that we may be turned from our wicked ways and then to follow in righteousness according to the path of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Gospel demands a response from all people, to reject the Gospel is to reject truth, and life. To accept the Gospel is to reject death and slavery to sin. The echo of Jesus' death and resurrection has resounded throughout the earth, and all manner of people have believed from all manner of life, and proclaim that grace alone delivers us from our own sinfulness as well as from the dark powers of sin over the nature of humanity. Only in Christ, in being born again into his nature are the righteous barely saved. What hope do those who reject the Christ have when the severe sword, great and terrible, comes to judge the world?

we've had literally thousands of years of warning about God's coming. The Lord proclaims the end from the beginning, he promises things not yet come to pass and suddenly they are upon us. He has shown us as a species, so much so that all of humanity has no excuse. Neither the rich, nor the poor. Neither the intelligent, nor the ignorant. Neither the ones familiar with the message, nor those who are not. Neither those with freedom to worship, nor those with restrictions (remember the early martyrs who died for believing in Christ and how they are exonerated). No one will have an excuse before the Lord on that Day. At the very least, everyone has the knowledge not to do wickedly, but we all are obedient to wickedness, and have despised righteousness, each in our own way.

What is the end of those who have followed the path of death, who've rejected life, and obedient to the ways of Leviathan, the ways of wickedness? They will be denied life, true life. And be sent away into true death, the second death, for their own words, and their own depravity will condemn them before the Lord God. Yet God has given us hope, a way out in Christ, but like those who refused to listen to Noah and died in the flood, and like those who refused the voice of the prophets and died to Assyria and Babylon, so too will those who refuse the voice of Jesus who is greater than Noah and the Prophets, the Almighty One, they will likewise perish in their own rebellion on that day. And that is hell.

That was pretty informative on how hell and sin came to be, and the story. Certainly educational and helpful, but it doesn't answer the question to why God has to kill even one soul, whether in fire or to remove it from life.
As I said before, it would be easier for God to say "you're forgiven", rather than kill the person in fire or whatever.

I suppose just ending the bad person's soul forever would be better than living in hell, it would make more sense too.
However, this should really be the last resort.
For example, the sinful person(let's say satan for example) would have to ADMIT they're sorry, repent for their sins, and accept God and Jesus.
I truly believe everyone will have this option.

If one is too prideful, to the point where they deny God who is offering you life with Him, then maybe you should be killed. As there's no going back from your last chance and you're too stubborb to accept.

ONLY THEN would it make sense for you to die forever, I think. No hell, just death, gone forever.
I think everyone will end up saying sorry to God though.

Didn't Jesus say "even the tax collectors will enherit the kingdom of God BEFORE you"(me paraphrasing of course)
"Before" you seems to indicate that you're given many chances, perhaps lifetimes on Earth, or maybe chances God gives you.

 

[Sketcher]

Going to hell when you never knew you were going to end up in hell is not free will at all, it's slavery.

I don't see a reasonable basis for that. It's simply a consequence of action or inaction. If you misuse a product because you didn't read the warning label and get hurt as a consequence, that's not slavery. That's just the reality of what happened to you because of what you did or didn't do. If you notice the instructions but don't read them, or read the instructions but don't believe them, that doesn't turn it into slavery either.

The alternative to Heaven is NOT hell. I already explained what I think the real alternative before.

I'm not seeing what you said the real alternative is, nor what your basis is for claiming that is what happens than what the Bible says.

You never chose an option of a or b. Clearly you know burning people is bad, yet, when it comes to the Bible, you support it? Did it ever occour to you that maybe the Bible has primitive concepts?

Being "primitive" doesn't make something inaccurate or wrong. It could just be enduring.

Or maybe there's multiple MISTRANSLALTIONS?

Which mistranslations twisted the doctrine of Hell then?

Or perhaps satan altered the Bible in small ways that contradict it and ruin the faith?
(This is my opinion so far, just a thought)

What did Satan alter, what evidence do you have that he altered it, and why would God allow Satan to pollute his word for over 2000 years?

You still don't understand! Why is the wage of sin, death? Why does it have to be that?

That's the nature of sin. You might as well ask why fire has to be hot, or why poison has to be anywhere between unhealthy and deadly.

Why would God want to burn his own children alive in a fire for all eternity?

Tell me where the Bible says that God actually wants to do this, and where it says he would rather do this than have people repent and be with him.

I explained it before and i'm tired of doing it again. I'm not getting any answers.

What exactly were you explaining?

As you know, Jesus questioned everybody, even the high Jewish people (and the law?). He told the people this when the lady was caught in adultey "whoever has no sin cast the first stone"(me paraphrasing)

Jesus didn't stone the lady!
The Jewish people believed in stoning! They tried to trap Jesus but He got out of it!
But wasn't the law to stone people?

So, you see, even Jesus questioned things...From what I can see at least.

Which brings up an excellent point - Jesus questioned things all right, he had the moral courage to challenge Jewish traditions that had become corrupted. If the Pharisees believed in anything like Hell, Jesus would have challenged it if he had a problem with it. But he didn't. Rather, he built on it. He didn't make it rosier. I'd encourage you to read Erasing Hell by Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle - they cite numerous Jewish works from just before Jesus' time which have quite a few parallels to the Hell of Christian tradition. They also show their compassion for the lost in that book, in a very challenging way.

 

[Dardan]

I don't see a reasonable basis for that. It's simply a consequence of action or inaction. If you misuse a product because you didn't read the warning label and get hurt as a consequence, that's not slavery. That's just the reality of what happened to you because of what you did or didn't do. If you notice the instructions but don't read them, or read the instructions but don't believe them, that doesn't turn it into slavery either.



I'm not seeing what you said the real alternative is, nor what your basis is for claiming that is what happens than what the Bible says.


Being "primitive" doesn't make something inaccurate or wrong. It could just be enduring.


Which mistranslations twisted the doctrine of Hell then?


What did Satan alter, what evidence do you have that he altered it, and why would God allow Satan to pollute his word for over 2000 years?


That's the nature of sin. You might as well ask why fire has to be hot, or why poison has to be anywhere between unhealthy and deadly.


Tell me where the Bible says that God actually wants to do this, and where it says he would rather do this than have people repent and be with him.


What exactly were you explaining?


Which brings up an excellent point - Jesus questioned things all right, he had the moral courage to challenge Jewish traditions that had become corrupted. If the Pharisees believed in anything like Hell, Jesus would have challenged it if he had a problem with it. But he didn't. Rather, he built on it. He didn't make it rosier. I'd encourage you to read Erasing Hell by Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle - they cite numerous Jewish works from just before Jesus' time which have quite a few parallels to the Hell of Christian tradition. They also show their compassion for the lost in that book, in a very challenging way.

Poor example.
Going to hell without ever knowing you would is not free will at all.
That's like saying you're going to fail all of high school unless you do this grade 12 math test that you didn't know about, yet you're in grade 9 and just came to high school and are confused to what's even happening.
This is similiar to the idea of going to hell.

If you knew hell existed for sure, you would act in a way that avoids it. This is free will.
If you don't know if hell truly exists, then you can't act in free will because free will requires you to BE FREE by making your OWN choices.

If your choices are impacted by not being told IMPORTANT information, it's not free will. Simple as that.


The alternative to hell is God forgiving you and loving you unconditionally. I believe many might come back to earth and "try again", or perhaps something else God will have us do to improve as souls. All of us.
Are you saying God's love is limited only to those who obey Him? Isn't this what Hitler did?

You don't burn your children if they do bad things, you teach them. Maybe even a "time out" or spanking, possibly. But to burn them? That would be insane! Simple as that, you can't debate this.
Now, apply this to God.

NO MATTER how one twists and turns it, hell(in the way it's most believed) will never ever be a logical belief in my eyes. I'll only change my view if God or some sort of divine being or servant of God brings me an answer. However, I doubt this will happen, as hell fire for eternity cannot logically be real, in my eyes. So how can something not real be proven to be right?

If you see a crazy Islamic bomber, they usually feel justified by their scriptures to commit suicide to get their virgins. NO MATTER how much you persuade them to think otherwise, presenting complete evidence and logic, they will still deny it (and probably kill you for even doubting them).
The Bible's view on hell is the same, people will support it no matter what...

If you believe in an eternal hell, how many people have you warned today?

"what evidence do you have that he altered it, and why would God allow Satan to pollute his word"
What evidence do I have?
Me?
Or should I ask you what evidence you have that the bible is not altered and has NO MISTRANSLATIONS?

I don't believe it as a fact, but rather, an idea. satan probably has corrupted the bible to make us believe things that we shouldn't. Such as the unforgivavle sin, for example.
Or if you say the word "fool" to someone, you'll be subject to hell fire? But murdering millions, and then saying sorry and repenting doesn't put you in hell fire?

Hell fire is a mistranslation. So if the Bible really is God's word, it wouldn't have mistranslations. Simple as that, nom debatable.



Create a kid. Out of the 100 books that's on the shelf, if the child with it's limited intelligence chooses the wrong religious book, you burn the child for all eternity? This is the common Christian belief, yet, very little people question it BECAUSE THEYRE ALL SCARED TO. THATS IT.

Tell a pure innocent child that loves being happy that hell exists, and they'll start crying in agony and fear.

Tell an adult who is not pure, not innocent, and sinful that hell exists, and they'll be happy and think burning in hell is logical.

Sure...Yeah, because making mistakes means you have to burn in hell forever...

 

[Dardan]

staff edit

Yes, I believe it makes sense.
Instead of going straight to heaven or hell, which is incredibly unlikely and I don't believe those 2 options only exist.
I think it's very possible about a "soul evolution" where we might incarnate to earth to do service or "learn", might work with angels to help others, possibly reincarnate back to earth for various missions, go to heaven to see Jesus, go to other planets, etc.
I THINK there's A LOT more to us than we know, like perhaps a "test", where we're improving as souls.

Consider the idea that Earth is full of sin, hate, mean people, etc. Your afterlife review is like God's judgement, he sees what you did wrong, what you did right, how it felt when you bullied that one kid, yet you feel it as the bullied kid felt it. You feel the love others had for you. You see what your actions did, and you observe how you spent your life.
This makes much more sense than the typical, "burn in hell or go to Heaven".

This is to say that we're all souls trying to advance ourselves and finding the truth of Jesus Christ on planet earth is one of our objectives, for example.

I realize this is different than modern Christianity, however, the very early Christian church embraced the idea of ALL getting to a oneness with God.
The quote of Jesus "Tax collectors will enter the kingdom of God before you"(Me paraphrasing).
Surely, you can't enter Heaven "before" someone if you're both in the same generation, age, etc. Maybe if you die 10 days BEFORE someone else does, but I don't see how this would make sense for Jesus to say.
To me, Jesus points to some sort of evolution where we all must get with God, not "you failed, now burn"

Also, I've heard this is a similiar idea for MANY people had a NDE. One was a Christian man also.
I don't base my beliefs completely on these accounts, however, they make logical sense and is why I'm argueinf against hell. Eternal hell serves no higher purpose.

Your examples are great and certainly make sense. It only adds to why I think there's more than just a hell, and if so, we don't know why one end up there when there are better ways to do things.

 

[LaSorcia]

Grace, love, compassion and mercy seem to be unpopular topics, Dardan. I think sometimes people fear that someone might try to take advantage of God if God is that good?

Also, some folks have a deep psychological need to be part of the 'in crowd' and having an 'out crowd' makes their status feel more valid.

I do think hell is real. I don't think God sends us there. I think it is horribly unfair to say that people choose to go there, for reasons you listed. In some rare cases, people might actually choose that, but even that is probably because they are deceived or misinformed.

I think that if people sin, it separates them from God, in a natural law kind of way, not a God rejects them kind of way. If they die in this separated state, they stay separated. I think God hates this and that's why he sent Jesus, so that none of His children would have to suffer this separation any longer than necessary.

When God says in Deuteronomy "I set before you life and death today; choose life", I don't think he is threatening people with what he will do to them (yes, I know the blessings and curses), rather he is telling them the natural consequences of their choices. So, no it is not fair that those ignorant of these natural consequences might end up in hell; that's why God has been trying to save us from it, not gleefully sending us there.

Paul wrote that those who never heard the gospel had the sun and stars to witness to them, and that those who did the law without knowing the law were doing something Godly, so I think there is a chance of reconciliation for non-believers.

According to Revelation, it sure seems like God has plans to do away with hell and death forever, but doesn't want anyone to spend any time there, because He love us soooo much.

The Eastern Orthodox view of hell also makes sense, that people find God's presence intolerable and think it is hell. That could very well be what hell is. But God will even overcome this.

 

[Dardan]

Grace, love, compassion and mercy seem to be unpopular topics, Dardan. I think sometimes people fear that someone might try to take advantage of God if God is that good?

Also, some folks have a deep psychological need to be part of the 'in crowd' and having an 'out crowd' makes their status feel more valid.

I do think hell is real. I don't think God sends us there. I think it is horribly unfair to say that people choose to go there, for reasons you listed. In some rare cases, people might actually choose that, but even that is probably because they are deceived or misinformed.

I think that if people sin, it separates them from God, in a natural law kind of way, not a God rejects them kind of way. If they die in this separated state, they stay separated. I think God hates this and that's why he sent Jesus, so that none of His children would have to suffer this separation any longer than necessary.

When God says in Deuteronomy "I set before you life and death today; choose life", I don't think he is threatening people with what he will do to them (yes, I know the blessings and curses), rather he is telling them the natural consequences of their choices. So, no it is not fair that those ignorant of these natural consequences might end up in hell; that's why God has been trying to save us from it, not gleefully sending us there.

Paul wrote that those who never heard the gospel had the sun and stars to witness to them, and that those who did the law without knowing the law were doing something Godly, so I think there is a chance of reconciliation for non-believers.

According to Revelation, it sure seems like God has plans to do away with hell and death forever, but doesn't want anyone to spend any time there, because He love us soooo much.

The Eastern Orthodox view of hell also makes sense, that people find God's presence intolerable and think it is hell. That could very well be what hell is. But God will even overcome this.

Well said. I agree with you.
I don't understand the Bible.
One minute it says God loves us.
The next minute it says if you call someone a "fool", you're subject to hell.

One minute it says God loves you, the next minute you read you might go to hell fire.

The Jewish religion didn't believe in a general afterlife, but this was personal belief.
So; how does Jesus, a Jew, talk about the afterlife and everyone seems to just get it. No questions to what hell is.
No wondering what hell is.
They act as if it's something they already knew.

That's very fishy.

Also, hell is mistranslated by the 3 other locations.

Yet, Hades is a Greek word and it ended up being in the Bible?
The original Bible was not in Greek! In fact, it was probably mistranslated when put in Greek! All Bible scholars agree that there are hundreds of errors, mistranslations, missing pieces, and added pieces to our Bible. We don't even have the original Bible, or the copy of it, or the copy of the copy, or the...You get it.

Early Christianity embraced the idea of everyone getting to a Oneness with God.
Then their church was destroyed.
And the belief of hell came in.

Seems fishy.

 

[SnowyMacie]

The Eastern Orthodox view of hell also makes sense, that people find God's presence intolerable and think it is hell. That could very well be what hell is. But God will even overcome this.

I'm not Eastern Orthodox but this has become my understanding of Hell. Hell is not some literal place that God sends us to be tortured forever, it is simply the result of living your life in such a way that being in the Almighty and loving presence of God will be intolerable for you.

 

[razzelflabben]

Razzelflaben, this is my response to you and everyone else. This is directly responding to your comment(s) on my original post.
Question 1: If your child was misbehaving would you
a) throw the child in a 1400 degree log fire
b) Teach the child what he/she did was wrong

If you chose option a, I really should report you to the police.
If you chose option b, then you seem pretty logical.

God spends a lot of time teaching us what we did wrong. That isn't the point. I know you want to make it the point but it isn't. The better analogy would be...you have a child who is showing signs of becoming a murderer. You try and try and try to get through to that child but in the end, they murder. Do you
A) ignore their crime and hope they don't repeat it or
B) call the police allow them to face the consequences of their actions

Which do you choose?

Now, if you don't throw your child into a fire for misbehaving, why would God do it to His children(us)?

this question takes a bit more time to discuss, seriously I'm afraid things are going to get too cumbersome too fast with some many misconceptions to start us off with...none the less, we can try to unravel some of this.

First, God doesn't send people to hell for misbehaving. That is simply an inflated argument for the purpose of stirring emotions meant to show hell and/or God is evil. People go to hell because that is the consequence of sin...death. See, hell is spiritual death, or iow's separation from God. What are they separated from God? Because of your misconception 2. God is so holy that He (any verses upon request) cannot look upon sin. Thus if we have sins that He can't look upon, we can't be in fellowship with Him, end of story. Thus hell is separation from God because we allowed our sins to keep us separated from God. Notice it is our decision whether we go to hell or not, that is why Jesus came. Now, misconception 3. Hell...hell was created for the devil and his demons according to scripture. As such, it is a place of eternal torment, or iow's like a jail for satan and his demons. It will be used for those that insist on allowing their sins to separate them from God, but it is a jail of sorts for satan and his demons.

If you with your limited love couldn't throw your kid into a fire, how could God The Creator with unlimited love throw you into a fire?

see, this is why I previously said that your posts show you to be purposed to something other than discussion, because you assume to have all the answers even though those answers are not consistent with what scripture tells us to start off with. According to scripture, hell is a kind of prison, not a punishment for doing wrong. Until or unless you grasp this concept, our conversation cannot progress. Just for the record, I believe scripture in the matter and thus what scripture tells us is the premise I am working from not some man made argument that removes scripture to start out with.

In order for the threat of Hell to work as a deterrent people need to actually believe in the concepts of Heaven and Hell in the first place. If God's goal is to make Hell a logical and FAIR deterrent He would first need to irrefutably establish His presence on earth for everyone to know so that no one could argue they "didn't know."

Okay, again, lots of things to unravel, but let's just tackle two for the moment.
1. Scripture does not view hell as a deterrent that is a man made concept. That does NOT mean that hell isn't a deterrent or can't be used by God as a deterrent but if you read and study scripture, there is very little teaching on heaven or hell and a lot on Christ, life, freedom from sin and death, etc. There is a reason for that. The reason is because the gospel of Christ is NOT heaven and hell, it's life and freedom in Christ.
2. He did make His presence irrefutable on earth, but like many in the world even today, they are either willfully blind and or painfully deceived and content to stay that way. Now, we can go down a bunny path into evidence of His presence on earth, His teaching or even deception and blindness, but all that would take us off topic of this thread. What is on topic is that He did make His presence and teaching on this earth irrefutable and that is what you claim you want Him to do. So...done and done.

Jesus made Himself known before(Not now, He hasn't step foot on Earth today for everyone to see), and a small set of people still didn't believe, you may think.
You're right, however, God can can make you believe something without burning you. When you die, wouldn't it be better for God to give you His complete love and convince you through that, rather than give you complete fire and torment?

It is sometimes so difficult to address your posts because you simply put too many misconceptions into one idea. 1. Colossians 1:24 tells us that Jesus death and resurrection still allowed something to be missing, iow's it was not a finished work. Do you know what was missing according to the context? Two things A. believers...iow's without people to believe, Jesus work was not finished. It was an act of love without a recipient of that Love, which is why believers are a big deal to God. But second and more important to our current discussion B. He needed people to show the world that He is alive and well and dwelling with man. Unfortunately there are many that proclaim Christ but have never met Him and even more importantly, He doesn't know them. These are the people that get your attention as far as your comments here. Then, there are those that live Christ and they are pushed aside and shoved down. They are persecuted and go quietly before the accusers, all the while, just like Christ, allowing the innocent to be mocked, beaten, ridiculed, insulted, slandered, taunted, betrayed, and some even killed for living Christ in a world that is afraid of Christ and the light He shines in the darkness.
2. God's Love is complete and convincing to anyone willing to listen. The problem is we as a people are so scared of having our sins brought into the light that we hide from the light (truth). That is why we die and go to hell, because we love darkness and our sins more than we love the idea of freedom and truth. In fact, we are seeing that very truth lived out in our world today. It happens when we are talking about God as well. Scripture talks about it as light and dark which is why I choose those words too, but the bottom line is that people would rather live in their sins and protect their pride than to allow God to remove that sin from their lives and give them life.

Another logical problem of eternal hell is that it serves no practical purpose.
Torturing souls for eternity means that no one is ever "reformed" through this torture. No one is redeemed and eventually allowed into Heaven after getting a server beating....so Hell ultimately becomes just revenge-driven abuse that serves no higher spiritual purpose.

well first, hell is more like jail than a beating or torture, but we already talked about that. Second, what purpose is there to allowing someone who willfully chose death over life to change their mind? It is the heart that needs to change. In fact, I believe in the first post I made I talked about how salvation is belief of the heart, not the mind. Hearts don't change without a supernatural help, and every person born has a lifetime to allow that supernatural help to change their heart. What makes you think that being in hell will change a heart when the man already chose to remain evil? IOW's a better analogy. Our guy that committed murder is told, don't do that or I will put you in jail. They do it anyway, get thrown in jail. You want us to then come along and say, well dude, are you ready to change your mind and commit to not killing people. He says sure and so we let him out of jail because he said he made a bad choice? That is insane from anyones perspective except for people like you who think that God should have a different perspective and allow all His enemies, all those that tried to destroy Him and His children to be let out of jail because they say, I didn't know hell would be this bad....non sense.

So Hell doesn't work as a "deterrent" to sin and Hell serves no purpose to "reform" people to make them better people.

This is my response to everyone and Razzelflaben.

I realize I was a bit mean earlier, and I am sorry for that. Me being sorry does not mean I agree and I still completely disagree with the idea of hell. I wrote down why I do in this post.

I really respect your words here and confession. I will try to respond accordingly. As to the rest, you have some seriously messed up concepts about hell that would have to be straightened up before you would be able to understand God's perspective of hell. As this discussion continues, please keep in mind that understanding another perspective does NOT mean you have to agree with it. If you wish to continue to talk to me about the topic, my goal will be to get you to understand another perspective, not to change your mind about anything. Whether or not you change your mind is between you and God alone.

 

[razzelflabben]

Going to hell when you never knew you were going to end up in hell is not free will at all, it's slavery. It can only be free will if you willingly choose the options that would end you up in hell WHILE believing that hell is real. Basically, then, you're stupid to do that.

The alternative to Heaven is NOT hell. I already explained what I think the real alternative before.

You never chose an option of a or b. Clearly you know burning people is bad, yet, when it comes to the Bible, you support it? Did it ever occour to you that maybe the Bible has primitive concepts? Or maybe there's multiple MISTRANSLALTIONS?
Or perhaps satan altered the Bible in small ways that contradict it and ruin the faith?
(This is my opinion so far, just a thought)

You still don't understand! Why is the wage of sin, death? Why does it have to be that?

I just told myself to only respond to those posts that are directed at me, then I read this question....so much for that.

So, I could talk about the above questions but since they aren't directed at me, I will leave them. This one I want to address though. The wage of sin is death because God cannot look upon sin because HE is so holy. Habakkuk 1:13. Death being separation from God, it all makes logical sense.

I keep getting cop out answers, friend. Please tell me, please. Why would God want to burn his own children alive in a fire for all eternity? Not even you can do that to your own family! How could God do it?

see my previous post.

I explained it before and i'm tired of doing it again. I'm not getting any answers.

It seems like people just don't want to think and question things.

personally I love questions and answers. In fact, the harder the question and more difficult to find the answer the better. But in order for questions and answers to be satisfying, one needs to consider the answers given and learn to see through different eyes, and not just the ones we want to see through or are taught to see through or that satan tells us to see through.

As you know, Jesus questioned everybody, even the high Jewish people (and the law?). He told the people this when the lady was caught in adultey "whoever has no sin cast the first stone"(me paraphrasing)

Jesus didn't stone the lady!
The Jewish people believed in stoning! They tried to trap Jesus but He got out of it!
But wasn't the law to stone people?

So, you see, even Jesus questioned things...From what I can see at least.

bring the questions, you will make me a very happy person.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well said. I agree with you.
I don't understand the Bible.
One minute it says God loves us.
The next minute it says if you call someone a "fool", you're subject to hell.

One minute it says God loves you, the next minute you read you might go to hell fire.

The Jewish religion didn't believe in a general afterlife, but this was personal belief.
So; how does Jesus, a Jew, talk about the afterlife and everyone seems to just get it. No questions to what hell is.
No wondering what hell is.
They act as if it's something they already knew.

That's very fishy.

Also, hell is mistranslated by the 3 other locations.

Yet, Hades is a Greek word and it ended up being in the Bible?
The original Bible was not in Greek! In fact, it was probably mistranslated when put in Greek! All Bible scholars agree that there are hundreds of errors, mistranslations, missing pieces, and added pieces to our Bible. We don't even have the original Bible, or the copy of it, or the copy of the copy, or the...You get it.

Early Christianity embraced the idea of everyone getting to a Oneness with God.
Then their church was destroyed.
And the belief of hell came in.

Seems fishy.

Again, I get involved when it isn't directed at me...I will never learn

As to what hell is, that is a whole discussion on it's own and all I can offer you there is exactly what scripture says about it which has some missing information, just like heaven does. The best we can do is study it and understand what God wants us to know about it and trust Him with the rest.

That being said, I want to address this idea of scripture says "God is Love" then "you might go to hell".

about 8 or so years ago, God called me to study Biblical Love. Since then I have been in deep study of Biblical Love to the tune of about 8-10 hour days 6-7 days a week. If I am not studying it, I am teaching or counseling it. To that end, I can say without hesitation that if you see a contradiction between Love and justice, you are not understanding one or the other or both. The whole idea of Biblical Love (yes it is different than the worlds idea of love) involves not only a way out of our own problems and sins, but justice so that everyone gets a righteous and just some would say fair though fair is relative and justice is not, approach to life in Christ or death.

If you present some specifics I can address them but since I am not sure what you think is not Love I'm not sure how to address them at this point. Iow's I need to know if it is Love you don't understand, hell, or something else or both or what exactly.

 

[razzelflabben]

OP, I enjoyed reading your five scenarios, but I felt there were a couple more that you could have included:

6) You're born in the US and inculcated into Christianity. But the Muslims were right all along. Allah punishes you for rejecting Islam with eternal suffering.

7) You're raised in Japan, in Shintoism. At your death, Buddha is furious. He resurrects you as a bacterium which feeds on excrement, rather than as a tiger or something.

8) You realise that everyone's claims are mutually exclusive, and instead of trying to guess which one is right, you realise they're all wrong. You accept your own mortality, and you accept that there is no eternity, either on fluffy clouds or in burning pits. You don't face judgement at the end of it all, you just cease to be.

how about 9) you grow up in the US in a christian home thinking all along that being a christian is about saying a specific prayer or going to church and never once have an encounter with the Living God that saves you from both sin and death.

Like in reality TV shows when someone gets kicked off the show, and they review their 'best bits'? Why does God set up this game show? Who is watching? Does the concept of an all knowing God creating some lifeforms, giving them a degree of freedom, watching to see if if they're good or bad and then rewarding or punishing them accordingly, really make a shred of sense?

lots of misconceptions from scripture here, I think I already covered most of them

 

[Strathos]

I am an annihilationist and I find the doctrine of Hell as a place of eternal suffering to not be sufficiently supported by scripture.

Just my view.

 

[Xalith]

As you know, Jesus questioned everybody, even the high Jewish people (and the law?). He told the people this when the lady was caught in adultey "whoever has no sin cast the first stone"(me paraphrasing)

Jesus didn't stone the lady!
The Jewish people believed in stoning! They tried to trap Jesus but He got out of it!
But wasn't the law to stone people?

So, you see, even Jesus questioned things...From what I can see at least.

You are grossly misinterpreting that scene in the Bible.

Go back to Leviticus and read the Leviticus Laws and you will find that

1). You need two witnesses (which they did not have)
2). The entire proceedings were done incorrectly (they grabbed the lady and drug her to Jesus)

That's why He said "The one among you who has no sin in the matter may cast the first stone", because every single one of those people in that courtyard that day were guilty of breaking Law as defined in Leviticus when it came to that matter.

We would call that a "mistrial" in today's court system. What happens in a mistrial? The person gets off scott-free usually, especially if all of the evidence has to be thrown out because it was mis-handled.

In this "trial", nobody brought forth any witnesses, or anything like that and they all "ran" away and that's why Jesus asked the woman "Is there any left to condemn you?" and she goes "no" and then He goes "Then I won't either. Go and sin no more."

He knows whether or not she was guilty, but yet He also knows that the Law had been broken on the part of the Pharisees and He chose to forgive her to make a point that He is all about forgiveness to those who repent and turn away from their sin.

 

[Mister_Al]

The truth is that God can forgive every sin that a person has committed and he will still go to hell if he isn't born again. A person can be born into this world and lead a sinless life and then die and go to hell if he hasn't been born again. The sins you have committed are not what sends you to hell, it's the sin that Adam committed that has condemned everyone on this Earth to hell and as long as you are in Adam's family line you are carrying his sin debt and will go to hell.

The only way to escape the condemnation of Adam's sin is to die to Adam's family and be joined to Christ. When you are joined to Christ the two of you become one flesh and now you are in His family line. Because you are one flesh with Jesus--a flesh that has died--you have died and are freed from Adam's family line and his sin. You are now in Christ and a son of God through Christ because of the new family line you are in and your sins will not send you to hell because you can't be condemned in Christ.

I think God did a very good thing for us by making this provision. If hell wasn't real then none of this would have been needed doing.

Alan

 

[Sketcher]

Poor example.
Going to hell without ever knowing you would is not free will at all.
That's like saying you're going to fail all of high school unless you do this grade 12 math test that you didn't know about, yet you're in grade 9 and just came to high school and are confused to what's even happening.
This is similiar to the idea of going to hell.

My parents both teach. Semester after semester it seems, they give their students information on what is due and what is expected of them, and yet there are several students who claimed they didn't know, and end up failing the class. That's not a lack of free will in any reasonable sense.

If you knew hell existed for sure, you would act in a way that avoids it. This is free will.
If you don't know if hell truly exists, then you can't act in free will because free will requires you to BE FREE by making your OWN choices.

If your choices are impacted by not being told IMPORTANT information, it's not free will. Simple as that.

You are free to take the opportunity to evaluate the information that warns of it. And you are free to heed it or reject it after doing so. This is what God gives out.

The alternative to hell is God forgiving you and loving you unconditionally. I believe many might come back to earth and "try again", or perhaps something else God will have us do to improve as souls. All of us.

That's not Christianity. If that could be done, or is done, then the cross is a total waste of time and suffering.

Are you saying God's love is limited only to those who obey Him?

No - in love he has given many people who were not obeying him ample time and chances to repent.

Isn't this what Hitler did?

No. He might have loved his mother. He might have loved Eva Braun. He was reluctant to execute Ernst Rohm. Beyond that, I don't know of any modicums of love he showed for anyone else, even those who obeyed him. In fact, he guaranteed the death of many who obeyed him many times on the Eastern Front. So I'm not seeing what this Godwin really does for you.

You don't burn your children if they do bad things, you teach them. Maybe even a "time out" or spanking, possibly. But to burn them? That would be insane! Simple as that, you can't debate this.
Now, apply this to God.

God does discipline and teach people in hopes that they will come to him and experience Heaven. How many times will you ignore my repeating this?

NO MATTER how one twists and turns it, hell(in the way it's most believed) will never ever be a logical belief in my eyes. I'll only change my view if God or some sort of divine being or servant of God brings me an answer.

I did, as have others in the thread. You're not listening.

If you see a crazy Islamic bomber, they usually feel justified by their scriptures to commit suicide to get their virgins. NO MATTER how much you persuade them to think otherwise, presenting complete evidence and logic, they will still deny it (and probably kill you for even doubting them).
The Bible's view on hell is the same, people will support it no matter what...

Sounds like your denying of what we have been telling you. We've explained that it's not. You're not listening. Your feelings on the matter do not define what is and what is not.

If you believe in an eternal hell, how many people have you warned today?

None yet, but I can start with you. If you deny a central teaching of the New Testament so vociferously, this is evidence to me that you do not know Jesus. For a gospel other than the Gospel that Jesus preached and the Apostles preached is not a gospel at all, and thus it cannot save anyone from Hell. A message without sin and Hell takes away the need for Jesus Christ. It is salvation by works rather than grace given by Christ's death and resurrection. Where there is no Hell, there is no need for Christ's atonement. Hell is an inconvenient truth, and that's bad news - but the greatest news is that you can be saved from it if you repent and believe on Jesus Christ, even though you do not and cannot deserve it. That is more love than any human can properly express.

"what evidence do you have that he altered it, and why would God allow Satan to pollute his word"
What evidence do I have?
Me?
Or should I ask you what evidence you have that the bible is not altered and has NO MISTRANSLATIONS?

I don't believe it as a fact, but rather, an idea. satan probably has corrupted the bible to make us believe things that we shouldn't. Such as the unforgivavle sin, for example.
Or if you say the word "fool" to someone, you'll be subject to hell fire? But murdering millions, and then saying sorry and repenting doesn't put you in hell fire?

You levied the accusation, burden of proof is on you to prove it. Do you have textual evidence to back up your claim that these are Satanic corruptions? This is a heavy accusation, if you're going to claim that, it would behoove you to have real evidence rather than leaning completely on your own thoughts and feelings. There are people who, leaning completely on their own thoughts and feelings, who believe the sun revolves around the Earth, not the Earth revolving around the sun. Their sincerity does not make them right. Neither does your sincerity make you right. Now, I could tell you that the number of New Testament documents and fragments across the ages (which come in multiple languages) have been cross-checked and the doctrines have been found to be 99.5% consistent in spite of copyist errors according to Geisler and Nix. But since you levied the accusation, you are the one who needs to justify it with facts beyond your opinions and ideas. So let's hear your evidence. Is it more thorough and rigorously examined that Geisler and Nix's study?

Hell fire is a mistranslation. So if the Bible really is God's word, it wouldn't have mistranslations. Simple as that, nom debatable.

Where is your evidence that this is a mistranslation? Which verses were mistranslated? Which lexicon shows they are mistranslated?

Create a kid. Out of the 100 books that's on the shelf, if the child with it's limited intelligence chooses the wrong religious book, you burn the child for all eternity? This is the common Christian belief, yet, very little people question it BECAUSE THEYRE ALL SCARED TO. THATS IT.

No, it might be that they reject strawman arguments like this one. It might also be that the weight of Biblical evidence is in favor of a Hell. It might be both. A Christian's acceptance and making peace with the doctrine of Hell can happen for these reasons, it depends on what said Christian has learned and been exposed to.

Tell a pure innocent child that loves being happy that hell exists, and they'll start crying in agony and fear.
Tell an adult who is not pure, not innocent, and sinful that hell exists, and they'll be happy and think burning in hell is logical.

It doesn't work like that in my experience.

 

[Oscuro]

I'm going to give you only 5 cases of people that would be TRAPPED if hell was really a place for many people to go. God does not TRAP people.
Please read these 5 very very small cases.(5 cases are simply a 2-3 minute read).

Case 1) You make mistakes, sinned, did drugs, and did many bad things, but you never understood, you made these mistakes and was not wise, but very misguided in life. Does making mistakes and not comprehending the deeper meaning of life and sin, send you to hell for all eternity? Hell for eternity? Just because you didn't understand?
Case 2) You were born in India, never knew or heard about Jesus. You might have heard of Him once, but you quickly wrote it off, as you were already in an "Indian" religion. OR you were born in an ATHEIST society where God was thought to be not real, you adapted this belief too. Is your eternal future dependent on where you're born and at what time? Do you go to hell because you were born at the wrong place, in the wrong time?
Case 3) You were born in Saudia Arabia and was FORCED to be a Muslim against your will, and if you change religions, you're killed. This is BRAINWASHING, and it starts just when you're a little kid. You're told Muslim is the true religion and you must kill non-believers, all this at the age of 5 years old.
Do you go to hell because you were brainwashed and deceived to be in a religion against your will? You came into the world, got brainwashed, now you go to hell?
Case 4) You're a regular person. Have a family, a job, and want to be happy in life. You never believed in God or was in a religion because you never really thought this type of stuff was real.
Do you go to hell because you made a mistake?
Do you go to hell because you weren't wise enough to understand what's truth?
Do you go to hell for not really knowing what to believe?
Case 5) MY PERSONAL CASE. I used to be very unhealthy, and an atheist. I started eating very healthy, taking nutritional supplements, and more. As I started getting healthy, I noticed I started becoming more spiritual. As I got more spiritual, I noticed that GOD IS REAL. I saw the truth because I started to be healthy and my brain worked better.
Now, if all it took for me to see the truth of God was to eat healthy, take supplements, and fix my brain and body, would I have gone to hell to burn forever if I never made these changes?

In other words, do you go to hell based on how healthy or unhealthy you are in the brain and body?


NOW.
As you see, these are 5 EXTREMELY common cases that have happened to most likely billions of people. Hell would not make sense for them to go, and Heaven might not make sense for them to go.
-To burn in hell for making a mistake makes no logical sense.
-To burn in hell for not understanding makes no logical sense.
-To burn in hell for being brainwashed makes no logical sense.
-To burn in hell for not being healthy in the brain makes no logical sense.
ETC...

So now what?
Could it be possible that there is Heaven, a type of hell we don't understand, and much, much more in our vast universe?

Perhaps God's judgement when we die is actually a "life review" where He Forgives us for not understanding, making mistakes, and all that, and he reviews our life and shows us what we did wrong and what we did right. KARMA IS NOT REAL, but perhaps some people come back to Earth to "try again" and find Christ, and become a better person, while others go to Heaven, and other various options.

WHAT MAKES MORE SENSE?
-To burn in hell forever?
Or for God to forgive you for everything you did and show you where you went wrong and how you can improve as a better soul?

AND, If hell is real, perhaps it's like a washing machine that cleans our sin and failures away, just as we put clothes in a washing machine to clean it up. Temporary we feel "hell", but we're soon out of it. I don't know, it's a theory.
Is hell real at all? Who knows.

creation testifies of god and leads all to seek truth .. so you are without excuse ..all are without excuse . he knows those who seek him truthfully ..
your words are empty your words encourage unbelief and rebellion,your word call the lord Jesus a liar .you will be held accountable to God for your words .you must repent quickly and he will forgive you .

 

[Timothew]

Interesting Dardan, but it seems that you haven't considered another possibility.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but will have eternal life." John 3:16
This doesn't say that anyone who is in one of your examples will go to hell forever. The Bible says "whosover believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life". God rescues us from death and gives us eternal life. We are all aware that we will die one day, but the Bible says that we can have eternal life.

 

[razzelflabben]

Pride...pride is what is keeping people from coming to Christ and pride is what causes them to sin. Pride is what clouds the mind from seeing the truth of heaven, hell, and Christ. Pride...when we set aside our pride and seek humility, our eyes start to open and we begin to see.

 

[Dave-W]

pride is what causes them to sin.

Not necessarily.

The church I grew up in taught that any consumption (including inhalation) of alcohol (even if done so unknowingly) was the sin of drunkenness and lost you your salvation.

How can accidentally smelling alcohol (which was deemed to be sinful) be caused by pride?