Near perfect existence

[essentialsaltes]

If some thing exists then it will always exist in some form because it would be objectively true that it exists.

This is getting worse and worse.

Does the Colossus of Rhodes still exist "in some form"?

But, because I'm slow on the uptake, I now see that this is all a play on the ontological argument. With good reason, it doesn't seem to be going so well.

 

[Chriliman]

Ah, because ceasing to exist is part of perfect existence. See, no contradiction here.


I'd say that it only seems contradictory to you because you apply your own definition of "perfection"... not mine.

It seems that your version includes "exists eternally" in its definition. Mine is limited to "exists" only.

So according to you, perfect existence involves things that perfectly exist that could go out of perfect existence at any time? So there's no real laws that would govern what comes into perfect existence and what goes out of perfect existence, it's all just random?

So the laws of nature that we observe really shouldn't exist according to your view of perfect existence? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Peacefulways]

It's really hard to say. Lots of people will have different ideals. And when we get toward the extremes, it's no longer realistic or possible or free from contradiction."

I'd like to be able to shapechange into a housecat and run around for a bit and catch a bird. I probably wouldn't want to be the bird, though.

I'd like to be able to eat as I liked without affecting my perfect (for me) figure. And I'd only poop once a month, but it would always be one of those really satisfying poops.

There would be no want or disease. These things are practically impossible.

People would live, hearty and hale, as long as they liked. And when they got tired of it all, they could stop living.

All children would be wanted. And if longer lifespans caused a population explosion, the earth would expand so there was more room for everyone.

Everyone would have an excellent baloney-detector.

Robots would perform any menial tasks that nobody else wanted to do. And the robots would find it very satisfying (to the extent that they can experience satisfaction).

Adam Sandler would be prevented from making films.

People would not care about what other people did in their bedrooms.

Space travel would be cheap and simple and fast, so there would always be new places to go, new worlds to explore.

"I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, freedom of choice. I'm the kind if guy who would sit in the greasy spoon and think "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the big rack of Barbecued spare ribs with the side order of gravy fries?" I *want* high cholesterol. I want to eat bacon, butter and buckets of cheese alright? I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinatti in a non-smoking section. I wanna run around naked with green jell-o all over my body reading a Playboy magazine. Why? Because maybe I feel the need to okay pal?"

I could continue the laundry list, but I don't see the point. Most of it is a fantasy.

I am just going to say this, this is the example what the guy starting this tread is looking for. What is your perfect world will look like fantasy or real. I want to hear more insight. This is what we call use your imagination.

 

[Chriliman]

This is getting worse and worse.

Does the Colossus of Rhodes still exist "in some form"?

But, because I'm slow on the uptake, I now see that this is all a play on the ontological argument. With good reason, it doesn't seem to be going so well.

It does in the form of your post that you just made, so yes. In other words, it exists in the form of a memory or idea or knowlege.

 

[Chriliman]

I am just going to say this, this is the example what the guy starting this tread is looking for. What is your perfect world will look like fantasy or real. I want to hear more insight. This is what we call use your imagination.

Yes, but I want them to balance imagination with what's reasonably possible.

 

[Peacefulways]

Sorry I am christian and I am not suppose to write however I give you another example of my Perfect Existence.


All things is good, no air pollution, no cancer, no disease, no children being kidnap, nobody is being murder. The children can go wherever they choose, they can stay out late at night running around like it is day time for no harm will come to them. All type of food that you want to eat, nobody is sleeping outside and if somebody is sleeping outside we all are for it is a camping trip.

Maybe once or twice day we all just sing in harmony to whatever song that somebody in mexico started. No more robbers. We all live in harmony and peace rings throughout the world. As we govern ourselves to do what is right we also help each other to grow, learn, and be in love with the fellow man. Heck if all things go well, I might want to add that we can walk around nude for we all be match up with our perfect mate who only love you and nobody what you see or what you think she knows that you guys are together.

No wars unless it is in a form of a games, as for work, who needs it, we work for our own fruits and if we have extra we share the wealth. That's a little bit of my perfect world or existence.

 

[Chriliman]

Sorry I am christian and I am not suppose to write however I give you another example of my Perfect Existence.


All things is good, no air pollution, no cancer, no disease, no children being kidnap, nobody is being murder. The children can go wherever they choose, they can stay out late at night running around like it is day time for no harm will come to them. All type of food that you want to eat, nobody is sleeping outside and if somebody is sleeping outside we all are for it is a camping trip.

Maybe once or twice day we all just sing in harmony to whatever song that somebody in mexico started. No more robbers. We all live in harmony and peace rings throughout the world. As we govern ourselves to do what is right we also help each other to grow, learn, and be in love with the fellow man. Heck if all things go well, I might want to add that we can walk around nude for we all be match up with our perfect mate who only love you and nobody what you see or what you think she knows that you guys are together.

No wars unless it is in a form of a games, as for work, who needs it, we work for our own fruits and if we have extra we share the wealth. That's a little bit of my perfect world or existence.

Sounds good! I'll ask the atheists what they think is preventing humanity from being able to achieve such a society that you've described?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes to all.

"What would your best possible life be like (living in the world we live in now)?"

"What would the best possible society look like?"

"What would the best possible human organism be like?"

This is a lot to ask a person to answer ...I'm sure we could all come up with hundreds of things that would make this world better, the human body better, or society better.

Isn't it sufficient enough to point out that it could all be better?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I am just going to say this, this is the example what the guy starting this tread is looking for. What is your perfect world will look like fantasy or real. I want to hear more insight. This is what we call use your imagination.

Are you the guy who's supposed to show up and announce this "truth"?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Sounds good! I'll ask the atheists what they think is preventing humanity from being able to achieve such a society that you've described?

Physics? Chemistry?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sounds good! I'll ask the atheists what they think is preventing humanity from being able to achieve such a society that you've described?

That's a different answer for each of the things she described.

 

[Chriliman]

That's a different answer for each of the things she described.

Well, I really only want to hear what honest atheists think a perfect society should be like. I used the word existence, but maybe thats not the right word, maybe society is better.

So far I liked where Eudaimonist was going here.

 

[Chriliman]

Physics? Chemistry?

How would these things prevent humanity from achieving a society that Peacefulways described? It seems a good understanding of these things would actually help.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, I really only want to hear what honest atheists think a perfect society should be like. I used the word existence, but maybe thats not the right word, maybe society is better.

So far I liked where Eudaimonist was going here.

Lol you would...but you're asking the wrong question

The question to ask them is, "If you were all powerful, could you make the world better than it is now?"

Once they tell you the things that they would improve, ask them, "Assuming god exists for a moment...does the fact that there are so many ways the world could be better show that god isn't perfect?"

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

How would these things prevent humanity from achieving a society that Peacefulways described? It seems a good understanding of these things would actually help.

Well, Peaceful said no pollution, but I assume there would be power, transportation, etc. There was also a mention of walking around naked, and no cancer...unless we manufacture the perfect sunscreen some of us can't have it both ways. That's just a few things that come to mind.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How about this...no earthquakes, no tsunamis, no malaria, no cancer, no diabetes, no AIDS...

How about people who are less greedy and more inclined to help each other, more abundant natural resources, an inexhaustible efficient clean energy resource, more arable land?

All these things would make the world a far far better place than it is now....don't you think Chriliman?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

A perfect existence? Or the best possible society given the natural conditions of the world we live in.
The difference is that a 'perfect existence' is an exercise in fantasy. ..wouldn't it be cool if we got our nutrients from water, air and sunlight; we could teleport where we want to go, no one ever gets sick, etc.
A better society given what we have to work at, e.g. could we feed people more efficiently, develop better drugs to treat disease, better mitigate climate change...now that's the direction I'd like to focus on.

 

[Chriliman]

Lol you would...but you're asking the wrong question

The question to ask them is, "If you were all powerful, could you make the world better than it is now?"

Once they tell you the things that they would improve, ask them, "Assuming god exists for a moment...does the fact that there are so many ways the world could be better show that god isn't perfect?"

Actually you've just demonstrated the truth that I hoped would be demonstrated.

In any objective discussion about perfection, where both sides are trying to be as objective as possible the side that does not believe in God, will always bring God into the discussion first. What this means is that the side that does not believe in God, cannot discuss the topic of perfection objectively because they falsely assume that God cannot be perfect.

So I would challenge any theist and even atheists to start discussions about perfect societies and try to remain objective and see who brings God into the conversation first. The demonstration I've done here has shown that an atheist will bring God into the discussion first, but only because they falsely assume God is not perfect.

A theist will rightly assume God is perfect.

 

[timewerx]

Yes to all.

"What would your best possible life be like (living in the world we live in now)?"

"What would the best possible society look like?"

"What would the best possible human organism be like?"

1. Self sufficiency through technology or through the land and lots of wide-open spaces (we need to reduce world population through birth control to make it possible)

2. Decentralized society with competition arising from sports, achievement, arts, and science, NOT for survival. Access to basic needs will be unconditionally provided to all (everyone will either gather their own resources traditionally or through advanced technology via a replicator/3D printer/transmutator like gadget). Again, this is only plausible with much reduced world population.

3. Self-sufficient quasi-social species. We know that acting in a social manner doesn't work for humanity. It has directly resulted to wars, discriminating class/work order systems. It has also made us quite vulnerable to fluctuations. Current social structures did not result to higher quality of life ON AVERAGE if the whole world is evaluated. Advances in technology resulted to higher quality of life but due to our social order, technology has not been fully disseminated to everyone and rather restricted to only small % of the world population - those with the more money.

Humanity have so far not been threatened by anything other than itself.... And most wars in recent times has been waged in the name of "discrimination" whether it's racial or religion. Sweeping changes to our society should be in order soon.


Social order as social species can still be made to work however, if we put the whole world under just one governing body and "One Earth" nation established with borders which divided us previously removed. Again, this calls for depopulation through birth control.

If possible, delegate administration to computers/automation to eliminate corruption. Economic system will have to be changed as well as our current economic system could not cope with a much reduced population.

 

[SkyWriting]

This is a lot to ask a person to answer ...I'm sure we could all come up with hundreds of things that would make this world better, the human body better, or society better.

Isn't it sufficient enough to point out that it could all be better?