Sex Ed: Ethics and Effect

[patricius79]

My problem back then was using National Records, State Records, and Student Surveys for all different sets instead of using them for as many commonalities as possible. That is why I contacted the state CDC and wanted stats for our region of the County as I knew it would be more accurate than so many different resources.

I'm sorry: what stats exactly did you want, and for what reason?

 

[Cute Tink]

It's been many years since I had a sex ed course, but I had one of those comprehensive style sex ed styles and abstinence was stressed as the only for sure way of avoiding diseases and not getting pregnant. Mine certainly wasn't one of those "do what you want and watch out for diseases" styles that sounds too out there to be realistic.

 

[beaverpond]

They used National Records for STDs and Abortions

They used State Records for Teen Pregnancy and Age Category Break Down on When Teens Start Having Sex

They used a Student Survey for When Teens Start Having Sex and How Often and How Many Different Partners

With so many different sources, it left the numbers a lot higher because some parts of the country are higher. It also left me wondering because something just did not feel right. I would really like to have had full access to their survey, but they would not turn it over as they say it took months to produce the information in a new report. I told them I was not asking them to do it over again, I wanted to see the research and it got me nowhere. However, the state showed a total different set of numbers for our area of the county compared to that of the National and State numbers. These are numbers that are more important as they are more accurate and in some cases more recent. The National Numbers were three years old and the state numbers were only a year old.

 

[patricius79]

It's been many years since I had a sex ed course, but I had one of those comprehensive style sex ed styles and abstinence was stressed as the only for sure way of avoiding diseases and not getting pregnant. Mine certainly wasn't one of those "do what you want and watch out for diseases" styles that sounds too out there to be realistic.

So your "Comprehensive Sex Ed" spent a lot of time on abstinence? What did they say about it besides it being the only sure way of avoiding STDs and pregnancy?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

as well as the psychological stunting of one's sexuality (getting stuck in sexual adolescence)



I think that's accurate. From what I can tell, the abstinence part is not emphasized at all in comprehensive sex ed.

But of course part of their standard response is: "hey, look at the states that teach abstinence only: they have the highest rates of teen STDs and teen pregnancies. And the studies show that abstinence only just doesn't work to reduce sexual activity either".

I need to have a better response to that argument. What would you say?

The problem that I have is that sex ed being a direct link to lower pregnancies and std's is that regardless of what the trend seems to be, the cause is something else and everyone knows it. There's no way that sex education, especially with how bland and frankly a waste of time they are. I gained not a single thing when I went through it, it's something that that most young people can attest to. I was an 80's baby, grew up in the 90's right when all this was a big thing.

I take a look at a lot of these states who teach abstinence or otherwise don't require sex ed and I mean, come on.. Texas.. Mississippi.. Oklahoma.. Alaska, Michigan , New Mexico- do people really think that sex ed is going to change something in these states?

 

[quatona]

I'm not expecting to win an argument here.
[...]
Personally, my current position is that kids (in high school, not earlier) should be delicately taught about things like contraceptives and abortion (just so they hear about these things in schools first rather than their peers first)--as well as why they are wrong--and oral sex (and other popular degradations); along with more time spent on a positive spiritual teaching about the meaning and goodness of sexual feelings, the goodness of sexual integration, purity and freedom (maturity),;and the goodness of sex within marriage, the importance of good character (as to sexuality) for having true friendships; and the moral wrongness of sexual immorality, like fornication, inappropriate contentography, masturbation, anal sex etc. The program should explain the social, emotional, psychological, and economic consequences, of having sex before marriage.

I don´t think sex ed (or any other school subject) should be taught based on religious convictions.

I would like to know more about how sex ed has been taught in schools, and what are the good and bad effects and ethical issue involved.

If anyone has been taught abstinence-only sex ed in schools I would like to know their experience and what it entailed.

Was anyone taught using the Sex Respect or other of the more reputable abstinence programs, like Sex Can Wait, Friends First, Pure Love Club, PEERS, Choosing the Best, Heritage Keepers, Best Friends, Worth the Wait, For Keeps, or other?

Also, what does "comprehensive sex ed" entail exactly in school, in your experience?

Some of the other related issues for me are:

--what was the rate of teen pregnancy and teen STD before comprehensive sex ed?--say, in 1900, 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950.

--what is the rate of pre-marital sex and teen pregnancy, and abortion, and STDs today in states where comprehensive sex ed is taught?

--in states where abstinence-only is taught.

--how exactly is the efficacy of comprehensive (or abstinence only) measured? how do we know we are dealing with causation rather than correlations?

(btw, my hypothesis as to why abstinence only is reported not to work is that perhaps it is based on a Puritanical model involving too much fear and a failure to affirm the goodness of sexual feelings, and because--perhaps?...--it is being taught in a culture where even family values people have accepted contraception, and are thus not fully integrated or happy themselves)

--how can we control for all the variables?

--even if comprehensive sex ed is more effective at preventing STDs and teen pregnancies--which it may well be, usually--why would that prove that it is a good thing, or that it has more good effects than bad (which may not be getting measured, for cultural reasons)?

--if you are someone who believes in comprehensive sex ed, how do you know that it correlates (or causes) with more good effects than bad effects?

--how do we know that the those who are doing the studies on abstinence only (or comprehensive sex ed) are unbiased?

patricius, in order to make sure we aren´t wasting our time here, would you be willing to answer this question:
Hypothetically, if it could comprehensively be shown that premarital sex, contraception and those sex practices you disapprove of have an overall positive effect on mental and physical health, society, happiness etc. - would that prompt you to postulate that they are presented as an argument for early and adventurous sex in school?

 

[beaverpond]

when a school superintendent takes it upon herself to hand out condoms to high school students without notice to parents...this is not an education issue, this is a personal agenda item. She did the exact same thing with a twist at the last school system she was at, difference is she included hiring a doctor for the students and staff to write scipts for birth control. Parents were outraged in her former school system and I added language to be sure that no position could be created that could add an employee who could write scripts in our school system as it has no education benefit.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's a legal thing. Has nothing to do with the overall plenitude of human erotica and all the enormous fetishes humans have. A lot of human sexuality is not as "vanilla" as presented in any sex ed class. Or does sex education classes for kids in the USA cover BDSM?

Of course a lot of girls mean "yes" when they say "no." A lot of them mean "no" when they say "no" too. Most are able to decipher what's being communicated. Some better than others of course. Just like "flirting" isn't always explicit statements of "Hey! I want you to take me in the back room and...."

Rather "flirting" deals with a lot of less explicit statements. A lot of it can be eye communication. Body language. References with double meaning. And women and girls expect males to be code breakers.

However, for sake of legal matters and staying out of trouble, it is better to just understand the word "no" coming from a girl can be used against you in a court of law and send you to prison. Even if she's grabbing you by the collars of your shirt towards you, spreading her legs, and humping you.

Well...that's sort of the point I was getting at Super. I wouldn't want sex ed to turn into a pre law class, I just think that the laws regarding rape, topics like date rape, and sexual harassment should be introduced/discussed to the point where teens learn what is legally acceptable regarding sexuality and what isn't.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Okay. Thanks. How or why are they so easy to spread?



I was thinking more of depression which comes after the fornication. But you bring up an interesting issue, which may just be ignorance on my part: assuming that states with comprehensive sex ed really do have lower rates of STDs and teen pregnancy than states with abstinence only (which I think they do), how do we know that this is a causation rather than a correlation?



I don't know. But thanks.

In the examples I gave, the people infected don't always know they're infected. It's a great reason to wear a condom even if your partner says they're clean.

Stats are tricky that way...which is something I intend to point out in the debate I've got going at the moment . I would guess that the attention/affection seeking behavior that's sometimes exhibited by those suffering from depression to be the cause of early sexual behavior. I'll freely admit though, that assessment is based on anecdotal evidence....I've never met anyone who was depressed because they were having sex. I'm not saying those people don't exist, I'm sure someone out there is depressed because they had sex...I've just never met them.

 

[Hank77]

They really just need to teach the real life consequences of early sex, from the pressure of pregnancy to social adversity.
But they don't. They teach doing whatever one wants, just watch out for diseases.

One of things they did in the 1990's in our high school to teach about real life consequences was interesting, they many still do it, I don't know. They are required to carry with them an egg, not a hard boiled egg either, for a couple of months. They are to keep that egg safe 24/7. The egg represents a helpless baby. There were a lot of details that went with it such as feeding schedules, diapers, baths, even babysitters, budgeting money for the expenses of a baby, you name it. Both boys and girls were required to participate.
It sounds silly but I know my kids got something out of it. It made them aware of just how having a baby changes ones life 24/7 and that they were not ready or interested in becoming parents until they were much older. It made them think twice about sex when it could involve becoming a parent.

 

[patricius79]

In the examples I gave, the people infected don't always know they're infected. It's a great reason to wear a condom even if your partner says they're clean.

Ah. I get it. Thanks.

Stats are tricky that way...which is something I intend to point out in the debate I've got going at the moment .

I saw the debate. Thanks for being civil.

I would guess that the attention/affection seeking behavior that's sometimes exhibited by those suffering from depression to be the cause of early sexual behavior.

I have heard that also. I also think that premature sexual activity would tend to lead to depression.

I'll freely admit though, that assessment is based on anecdotal evidence....I've never met anyone who was depressed because they were having sex. I'm not saying those people don't exist, I'm sure someone out there is depressed because they had sex...I've just never met them.

Fair enough. Have you met teens who were having sex because they were depressed?

 

[patricius79]

I don´t think sex ed (or any other school subject) should be taught based on religious convictions.


patricius, in order to make sure we aren´t wasting our time here, would you be willing to answer this question:
Hypothetically, if it could comprehensively be shown that premarital sex, contraception and those sex practices you disapprove of have an overall positive effect on mental and physical health, society, happiness etc. - would that prompt you to postulate that they are presented as an argument for early and adventurous sex in school?

To me that is like saying: if it could be proven that wrong is right, would you accept that wrong is right?

Now it's not exactly like that, because I think some things can have good physical effects which are bad in other ways.

But if there's some evidence as to comprehensive sex ed that you'd like me and others to try to process, feel free to post it.

As far as I can tell, in the context of the post-sexual-revolution culture--where eroticism is so prevalent--comprehensive sex ed does correlate with reduction in teen pregnancy and teen stds.

Some would say that proves that it is morally acceptable to teach comprehensive sex ed, which teaches about sexual options--such as contracepted fornication-- and does not condemn sexual immorality as such.

I don't see this.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ah. I get it. Thanks.



I saw the debate. Thanks for being civil.




I have heard that also. I also think that premature sexual activity would tend to lead to depression.



Fair enough. Have you met teens who were having sex because they were depressed?

When I was a teenager...yea, I did. Girls pretending to be happy, confident, loving creatures who in reality were desperate for my attention (or any male attention) because of their broken relationships with men in (or out of) their lives.

They crave male attention, male affection, physical and mental intimacy. More often than not, I think they don't actually realize that repairing a broken father relationship...or brother relationship...would do so much more for them than hopping into a sexual relationship with someone (anyone). You couple this with the ordinary desire that nearly everyone has for just being loved...and you end up with a girl who can't seem to figure out why her relationships fall apart. She misunderstands her own sadness...so she seeks relief from it, a moment of happiness.

Anyway...that's just my opinion, I've studied psychology a bit, but I'm certainly not a psychologist.

 

[beaverpond]

One of things they did in the 1990's in our high school to teach about real life consequences was interesting, they many still do it, I don't know. They are required to carry with them an egg, not a hard boiled egg either, for a couple of months. They are to keep that egg safe 24/7. The egg represents a helpless baby. There were a lot of details that went with it such as feeding schedules, diapers, baths, even babysitters, budgeting money for the expenses of a baby, you name it. Both boys and girls were required to participate.

In our school system we do this in grade 7, but we use anatomically correct dolls that cry, wet, and so on. They give all sorts of feedback about their care that was received during their course of a week. However, many parents don't feel their son or daughter is mature enough to handle this type of responsibility. So they opt out of this type of class because they know what their son or daughter is capable of. Thing is this includes not only what goes on at home, but also the care at school which could effect the grade of the student in the other classes and their studies for that whole week. For some this could be very stressful and for some this could be too much to handle at such a young age as we are talking about kids 11-13 years old physically and developmentally they could be younger or older than this and this causing parents a great deal of concern.

 

[patricius79]

When I was a teenager...yea, I did. Girls pretending to be happy, confident, loving creatures who in reality were desperate for my attention (or any male attention) because of their broken relationships with men in (or out of) their lives.

They crave male attention, male affection, physical and mental intimacy. More often than not, I think they don't actually realize that repairing a broken father relationship...or brother relationship...would do so much more for them than hopping into a sexual relationship with someone (anyone). You couple this with the ordinary desire that nearly everyone has for just being loved...and you end up with a girl who can't seem to figure out why her relationships fall apart. She misunderstands her own sadness...so she seeks relief from it, a moment of happiness.

Anyway...that's just my opinion, I've studied psychology a bit, but I'm certainly not a psychologist.

No, I think that's very plausible. Is this sort of scenario being taught in sex ed classes?

One of my favorite authors, Mary Rosera Joyce, talks about how girls will give sex in order to get love. And that boys will give words of love (not actual love) in order to get sex.

To me, this basic dynamic should be made clear to young people, who need to find better ways--as you suggest--of finding the affirming love they are seeking.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, I think that's very plausible. Is this sort of scenario being taught in sex ed classes?

One of my favorite authors, Mary Rosera Joyce, talks about how girls will give sex in order to get love. And that boys will give words of love (not actual love) in order to get sex.

To me, this basic dynamic should be made clear to young people, who need to find better ways--as you suggest--of finding the affirming love they are seeking.

It certainly wasn't taught in my high school. It wasn't a conclusion that was easy for me to reach either...being young and in what I thought was love...I didn't want to question the motives of a girl who seemed to need me so much. It felt good to be needed, even if I didn't think I needed her.

I don't know how easy it would be to teach such things. It's difficult to accept advice about a situation which seems entirely unique to yourself and your feelings. It's difficult to accept that someone else has had the same experience...or one so similar that they're practically the same. Teens tend to think that no one understands, that no one "gets it", and that they're alone to face their situation.

 

[SuperCloud]

No, I think that's very plausible. Is this sort of scenario being taught in sex ed classes?

One of my favorite authors, Mary Rosera Joyce, talks about how girls will give sex in order to get love. And that boys will give words of love (not actual love) in order to get sex.

I believe that is true. However, boys seek love, affection too, from the opposite sex, unless they're gay. And hetero males realize that if a girl or girls are screwing other boys and not him, that said girl(s) neither respect nor love him. Pretty simple.

No, I don't care if it is normal for girls to cry over rock stars and run to their aid if they their big toes. No more than I'm sure most women care that it's normal for men to fall over each other to lay their coat over a puddle for beautiful alpha females like Halle Berry.

In the end the American assault rifle, semi-auto pistols, and male serial killers bring justice and reconciliation to the prevailing American delusion. It never ceases to amaze me how many American women think a little puppy needs more love and affection than a little boy.

Contrary to all this schizo nonsense where Americans can't decide if American girls are Hillary Clinton's, tough CEO's, or Army Rangers, or instead weak, fragile damsels in distress looking for a peck on the cheek from any and all males. The reality is few American females are that desperate. They are backed by the cult of welfare, abortion, and new views on female promiscuity being pretty darn cool. More than a few of them have the nature of a girl that will join alpha males in hacking some vulnerable boy to death, burying him in a shallow grave, and having sex besides that grave as he breathes his last breaths.

 

[Hank77]

In our school system we do this in grade 7, but we use anatomically correct dolls that cry, wet, and so on. They give all sorts of feedback about their care that was received during their course of a week. However, many parents don't feel their son or daughter is mature enough to handle this type of responsibility. So they opt out of this type of class because they know what their son or daughter is capable of. Thing is this includes not only what goes on at home, but also the care at school which could effect the grade of the student in the other classes and their studies for that whole week. For some this could be very stressful and for some this could be too much to handle at such a young age as we are talking about kids 11-13 years old physically and developmentally they could be younger or older than this and this causing parents a great deal of concern.

I agree with the parents, most 13 yrs old kids are not ready for that much responsibility and probably would not take it seriously anyway. At 13 most aren't thinking about marriage and raising families. As far as being effective in sex education it wouldn't really register with them either. They know they are not old enough to raise a child.

 

[beaverpond]

Recently some kids have been asking me what God expects of them in a relationship. They come to me as the Commander of their Youth Program. Nobody has been upset as is yet, some have even told me that their kids have come to them and they are not always sure what to tell them or how to answer their questions or even to know where in the Bible to find them. They know ethically what to tell them, but what God wants for their kids and some of them get lost.

I am not sure if the parents are sending them to me or if the kids are coming to me on their own. I do suggest to the kids that they talk to their parents and I get either that they don't understand or that they don't listen to them or something similar to that. That is why I answer their questions, but I also fill in the parents and the kids know I fill them in this way it hopefully opens up some form of a line of communication. I am starting to put together a brochure of sorts for our kids of what God expects of our kids while dating leading up to eventual marriage. It includes some scripture.

 

[patricius79]

It certainly wasn't taught in my high school. It wasn't a conclusion that was easy for me to reach either...being young and in what I thought was love...I didn't want to question the motives of a girl who seemed to need me so much. It felt good to be needed, even if I didn't think I needed her.

I don't know how easy it would be to teach such things. It's difficult to accept advice about a situation which seems entirely unique to yourself and your feelings. It's difficult to accept that someone else has had the same experience...or one so similar that they're practically the same. Teens tend to think that no one understands, that no one "gets it", and that they're alone to face their situation.

True. But I think we have to try. Just like some teens are always going to choose to have sex before marriage--sometimes repeatedly-- but I think we have to try to tell teens about the consequences of this.