For instance, to me the basic salvation experience (forgiveness of sins by Christ and then the Holy Spirit residing or coming into that person's heart) would be to me the quote unquote salvation experience.
Even though this was your second question I think that it is one that should be answered first.
What you have acurately described combines both the Christological (Christ’s work on the Cross) and Pneumatological (the role of the Holy Spirit) aspects of our conversion/initiation; where the
Father decrees salvation for man and
Christ i
s the enabler and the
Holy Spirit is both
our sanctifier and empowering.
Don't answer this Bib's (I have given you nickname
) if it is going to mess up the thread, but if a manic demonic possession or a severely drug addicted person would say be saved and from that moment or moments after be freed from their demonic possession or drug addiction do you consider that part of that person's salvation experience or would you consider that to be miracle of God, followed by salvation and that person becoming indwelled by the Holy Spirit?
This is a really good question.
In an ideal situation, I would say that if anyone who was about to repent and confess Jesus as Lord, where they were in any way demonically possessed (not just possessed), then I would be inclined to say (as an opinion) that we would in all probability see a fight on our hands.
In my estimation, here’s where maybe even the best explanations from within a theological framework may have their limitations. For instance, we can all appreciate that when the Holy Spirit is about to enter upon a person as a result of their conversion/initiation into their new spiritual walk that we should probably expect to see the demon reacting to this event. From a practical viewpoint, if the person is able to give their assent to a call to salvation, then we could presume that any demonic forces that may be residing within them that they may not have full control over the individual; but what happens when someone goes forward for prayer where a number of Spirit led believers all of a suddenly lay hands on them?
Are these demonic forces able to determine that some of those praying have an affective ministry with say, the word of knowledge or even that someone may be affective within the Office of Powers (aka miracles) where they have previously demonstrated an ability (through the Power of the Holy Spirit) to deliver people from demonic possession. Would this scenario be enough to see a physical outburst or would the individual simply remain passive and unresponsive?
Now that’s how to answer a question without maybe providing a succinct answer!
Then, if a person has been given the gift of tongues, that can happy right after salvation (the person receiving the Holy Spirit) or at some time later.
Even though it can certainly happen way after our initial conversion, as it did with me and many others as well, ideally it should occur at the moment of our conversion/initiation. If the intending initiate is properly taught, where he/she is aware that they can pray in the Spirit (tongues) and ideally even prophesy, then there is no reason that this should not happen immediately.
This is probably more likely to occur when they are being prayed for by those who expect the Spirit to outwork through the individual through tongues (and prophecy); in many of our Majority World Pentecostal congregations we can be thankful if any intending initiates are even given the ‘sinners prayer’ let alone with a Full Gospel expectation of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
If a person were, for example demon possessed, I would think that that person had experienced a miraculous casting out of said demon (by Christ), then basic salvation (because the Holy Spirit could not (or I do not believe it is biblical) be given to a person and reside in said person at the same time as a demon.
Theologically speaking, as Christs work in our salvation was essentially with his role on the Cross, when it comes to any demonic interference, this would definitely be the role of the Holy Spirit to address; though he would most likely only do so when there are Believers present who are able to operate in one of the relevant Offices of 1Cor 12:28.
If a person were drug addicted, then they could be saved and have the Holy Spirit reside in them and be delivered from the addiction I guess either before or after.
As for drug addiction, now I have certainly heard of accounts where people were supposed to have been completely healed from drug addiction during their conversion/initiation experience, but in reality, as this is one of those sins of the body, as with long-term sexual perversions, alcohol and nicotine addiction, I really wonder how such a quick healing is all that possible. Though this does not discount the possibility that someone has been physically restored as a result of someone who functions within the Operation of Powers (aka miracles).
This brings up the point that we are not simply islands, where it is only "Jesus and me" but where a healthy and properly functioning church is in operation. In my opinion, if we do not have people working in all of the 8 Congregatiol Offices (1Cor 12:28), then we will most likely limit the power of the Holy Spirit within the lives of those who are new initiates.
It's confusing because before the Holy Spirit can reside in a person's heart, they must be made perfect by the full forgiveness of sin by our Savior Jesus Christ. However, I cannot see our Savior blessing one with salvation and leaving a demon inside of them for the Holy Spirit to kick out later.
Maybe I am making a big deal out of if it is Jesus Christ, during salvation who would kick a demon out of someone that was being saved over the Holy Spirit doing it, but I think the order of these things is important in people's understanding so they can break down in small steps what happens and in what order.
This goes back to an earlier point where Christ’s work is essentially with the Cross and where the Holy Spirit is the one who deals with any issues of demonic possession and physical addictions.
I hope I explained that right, but I know that it is Jesus Christ during Salvation that sends the Holy Spirit. So, in my mind I would think that it would be Jesus not the Holy Spirit casting out a demon.
Okay, it’s one thing to hope that you’ve explained yourself as you would have liked to, but it can be another thing where I hope that I’ve been able to adequately explain my views from within a Scriptural framework.
I am breaking this down because I think it is an important point because people often group so many problems/solutions together (ie.. Salvation, Tongues, Demons cast out ) and I want to understand why you think it is the Holy Spirit vs. Jesus Christ because if the person has asked for Salvation, then why could it not be Christ? Christ prepares the body to be 'perfect' spiritually before the Holy Spirit is given to the person.
If we go back to the opening paragraph, it is not in any way “Jesus vs. the Holy Spirit” but where both the Son and the Holy Spirit are working in cooperation within the life of the Believer. Without the sacrificial work of the Son on the Cross then we would all be doomed to eternal punishment, but through Jesus we have received eternal life where the Holy Spirit is our Eschatological down payment of the future Kingdom of God. It is through the Holy Spirit that we are not only grafted into the Body (as a result of the work of Christ) but where he is the one who sanctifies and regenerates us and most importantly, where he makes us each vessels where he can outwork himself (1Cor 12:7-11) through us to others. It is a uniquely Trinitarian event.
That was one very hard post to compile but where it was at least for me rather satisfying in the end!