Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[BABerean2]

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.

It sounds like you may be promoting the doctrine of soul sleep.


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus clearly says here we have both a body and a soul.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
How can souls cry out if they are not aware?


Jesus said there would be a simultaneous bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust.



John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


.

 

[Ronald]

There must be a Temple rebuilt, for sacrifices and offerings to commence.

The Prince who is to come, will confirm a covenant with many for one 7 year period...

In the midst of the week, he will put an end to sacrifice and offering...


These prophecies must be fulfilled before Jesus comes again.


JLB

That is the Pre-Trib view, the 70th week of Daniel, Revived Roman Empire and a Temple ... I'm not an adherent to the Temple needed. God destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D. Jesus made the Temple obsolete. Why would God require this (and He's sovereign) before He initiates His wrath? Jesus was the once and for all sacrifice. To build a Temple and start sacrificing animals again would be an abomination to God. Btw, Daniel 9:24-27 is all about Jesus first coming. The 70 weeks of Daniel was a prophecy concerning His first coming. There is no gap, nor would God be specific with a number of weeks leading to the day Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey and then put a 1983 year gap and say oh, it's not really 70 weeks, it's actually 353 weeks of years with a gap, my bad!

 

[Straightshot]

"It sounds like you may be promoting the doctrine of soul sleep."


No promoting of any private doctrine, but truth

And the spirits of the coming tribulation martyrs are under the alter and waiting .... these believers are killed in the coming tribulation and have a different experience than that of the dead before

No other humans are ever described as being under the alter after their death

 

[Ronald]

We are all excited and determined to understand the signs of the times. Jesus is about to return ... a Prominent Rabbi just said so! Well, not in those words, He said, "the Messiah is coming by the end of the Sabbatical Year ... call all the Jews back home to Israel", he's pleading. The end of the Sabbatical Year is Sept. 12, 2015. Why should we even listen to a Rabbi? Well, for thousands of years, God spoke to us through the prophets and disciples and they were all Jewish. In Romans 11, it is clear that a remnant of Israel, prior to and during the Great Tribulation will come to know Jesus. Their veils will be lifted and blindness removed. So, who better than a Rabbi to initiate this process is there? We've been saying the Messiah is coming again and they've been blinded. It's not their fault, God blinded them to this day. And if God didn't want them to discern this until a certain time, they won't. Besides, much of what happens in Revelation pertains to refining the Jews with fire. (not literally, but there will be fire around them).
Why else should we take notice of what this Rabbi said? On the evening of Sept 13, 2015 (which technically begins @ 6PM Sept. 12), Rosh HaSannah begins and btw, a partial solar eclipse occurs in the daytime followed two weeks later by a Super Blood Moon (the only one visible to Israel in the Tetrad). Rosh HaShanna is a time of repentance and judgment. The Feast of Trumpets accompanies this time as well. Gee ... trumpets ... aren't there trumpets in Revelation? If this Rabbi is right, it is no coincidence that his prediction is backed up by a solar eclipse and a blood moon (see Rev. 12:6). If this scenario is true, then on Sept. 28, 2015 (Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement), the 144k would be sealed prior to the beginning of destruction on earth.
"Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." And I heard a number of those who were sealed, One hundred and forty-four thousand o f all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed." Rev.7:2-4
When the Messiah comes, every eye will see Him. And those who did not receive Him will mourn. Christians are already sealed; so I would suggest that these 144k will be evangelists to the rest of Israel during the time of their trial. This 1/3 remnant will be protected. There's approximately 15 million Jews on earth, 6M in Israel and 6M of so in the U.S. and the remainder scattered throughout the world. This Rabbi is calling them home now ... just drop everything and go ... ya got 6 weeks. That's not gonna work for many but some will maybe take him seriously.
It's also no coincidence that on Sept. 20, the end of the Congressional review of the Iranian deal comes to an end. If they vote no, then we will see some fireworks. I believe they already have nukes and have been stalling, lying and deceiving many to think they will abide with such a deal, just to get $150 billion.
I would really be surprised if nothing happens before the end of this year.

 

[BABerean2]

"It sounds like you may be promoting the doctrine of soul sleep."[/COLOR][/U]


No promoting of any private doctrine, but truth[/B]

Your doctrine of "Soul Sleep" is a doctrine of ignorance.

You ignore the words of Jesus Christ and you ignore the souls John saw crying out in the Book of Revelation.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus clearly says here we have both a body and a soul.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
They cannot be crying out if they are unaware.

Any doctrine that only works by ignoring some verses, is false.
This fact is the truth.

"Soul Sleep" is a false doctrine held by the followers of Charles Russell, better known as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Straightshot, why don't you tell us how a Dispensational Futurist, from Dallas Theological, adopted the "Soul Sleep" doctrine.

.

 

[Chicken Little]

We are all excited and determined to understand the signs of the times. Jesus is about to return ... a Prominent Rabbi just said so! Well, not in those words, He said, "the Messiah is coming by the end of the Sabbatical Year ... call all the Jews back home to Israel", he's pleading. The end of the Sabbatical Year is Sept. 12, 2015. Why should we even listen to a Rabbi? Well, for thousands of years, God spoke to us through the prophets and disciples and they were all Jewish. In Romans 11, it is clear that a remnant of Israel, prior to and during the Great Tribulation will come to know Jesus. Their veils will be lifted and blindness removed. So, who better than a Rabbi to initiate this process is there? We've been saying the Messiah is coming again and they've been blinded. It's not their fault, God blinded them to this day. And if God didn't want them to discern this until a certain time, they won't. Besides, much of what happens in Revelation pertains to refining the Jews with fire. (not literally, but there will be fire around them).
Why else should we take notice of what this Rabbi said? On the evening of Sept 13, 2015 (which technically begins @ 6PM Sept. 12), Rosh HaSannah begins and btw, a partial solar eclipse occurs in the daytime followed two weeks later by a Super Blood Moon (the only one visible to Israel in the Tetrad). Rosh HaShanna is a time of repentance and judgment. The Feast of Trumpets accompanies this time as well. Gee ... trumpets ... aren't there trumpets in Revelation? If this Rabbi is right, it is no coincidence that his prediction is backed up by a solar eclipse and a blood moon (see Rev. 12:6). If this scenario is true, then on Sept. 28, 2015 (Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement), the 144k would be sealed prior to the beginning of destruction on earth.
"Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." And I heard a number of those who were sealed, One hundred and forty-four thousand o f all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed." Rev.7:2-4
When the Messiah comes, every eye will see Him. And those who did not receive Him will mourn. Christians are already sealed; so I would suggest that these 144k will be evangelists to the rest of Israel during the time of their trial. This 1/3 remnant will be protected. There's approximately 15 million Jews on earth, 6M in Israel and 6M of so in the U.S. and the remainder scattered throughout the world. This Rabbi is calling them home now ... just drop everything and go ... ya got 6 weeks. That's not gonna work for many but some will maybe take him seriously.
It's also no coincidence that on Sept. 20, the end of the Congressional review of the Iranian deal comes to an end. If they vote no, then we will see some fireworks. I believe they already have nukes and have been stalling, lying and deceiving many to think they will abide with such a deal, just to get $150 billion.
I would really be surprised if nothing happens before the end of this year.

nice concepts but just way too tiny..
but the Rabbi is only calling Judah and some levi (not all Israel , see Jacobs 's blessings) and it is Judah's right to be the last to be "Saved" but also in that the last to be purified too ...and to those who overcome will have the right to turnout the lights on this age. maybe read Jacobs blessings to his sons again..

 

[Marvin Knox]

Anyone who believes the Bible believes in the rapture.

If you object to the word rapture because it can't be found in scripture you could substitute the words "catch up" since they are easy to find in many translations.

The question is not whether there is a rapture.

The question goes to when will the rapture takes place.

Since the doctrine, as presented by Paul, is supposed to be one of comfort - the most comforting view is that it comes before the Great Tribulation or the Wrath of God period of history.

The more literally one takes things like the Tribulation and the Millennium the more likely one is to hold the pre-trib position.

The reasons given are quite logical IMO.

That is the position that I tend to believe.

Because I take these things literally - I find the pre-trib position not only the most logical. I find it the most comforting by far.

In fact I find the other positions not only not comforting (as Paul intended the doctrine to be). I find most of them particularly disturbing considering my relationship with God through Christ.

 

[Riberra]

Anyone who believes the Bible believes in the rapture.

The Bible say that the caught up (rapture)will happen upon Jesus' returns.

In fact I find the other positions not only not comforting (as Paul intended the doctrine to be). I find most of them particularly disturbing considering my relationship with God through Christ.

The pre-trib position is by far the most comforting but is it scriptural ?
If you believe that there is 2 coming of Jesus yet to come...then show us where in the New testament it is mentioned ?

 

[Straightshot]

"Because I take these things literally - I find the pre-trib position not only the most logical. I find it the most comforting by far."


And you should Marvin ... all of the prophetical writings of the Bible prophets must be taken literally in order to render the meanings correctly

And the symbolism of the same can be identified literally either within the context of the passage given, or identified in other related passages with 100% accuracy

The Lord has not left His prophetic word to conjecture and confusion

The Lord will break in only once, as a thief [no prior warning] .... to first immortalize His true ecclesia [called out ones] as promised [Revelation 3:10; 18:4], in the twinkling of an eye [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1]

.... He will then immediately turn on an unbelieving world of something upward to 8 billion people which will include a large apostate portion of professing Christianity [Psalms 2; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17]

And He will personally met out His unprecedented, unmitigated, punishment on an unregenerate lost world of earth dwellers for 2550 days [Revelation 8 thru 19]

.... and it is at the end of those days that He will appear to residue of those mortals who will survive [billions will be killed in the judgment] .... and He will gather them

First of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... 1/3 of these believers will survive the tribulation [Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36]

And then of the Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46]

.... and those found believing and supporting of His nation of Israel [His brethren [His kin]] during the tribulation will enter and populate [reproduce in] His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth

Those found against Him and His nation of Israel in unbelief during the tribulation in unbelief will be rejected

So He only intervenes once to begin His intervention and does all of these things in sequence .... one after the other

There are those of professing Christianity who are refuting this truth today .... in fact the majority

And they are the scoffers who are at risk .... and the same will pay a heavy price for their meddling with the Lord's stated intents

He has already identified them [Matthew 25:1-13 .... those with no oil] [Revelation 3:15-19 .... those spewed out into the tribulation]

 

[Riberra]

The Lord has not left His prophetic word to conjecture and confusion

Show us where in His prophetic word it is mentioned that there is 2 Second Coming of Jesus yet to come ?

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Bible say that the caught up (rapture)will happen upon Jesus' returns.


The pre-trib position is by far the most comforting but is it scriptural ?
If you believe that there is 2 coming of Jesus yet to come...then show us where in the New testament it is mentioned ?

Yes - it is scriptural.

I assume that since we all believe the Word of God we all believe in at least two comings.

Clearly those 2 comings are said to be in the air and on the earth.

I don't have to show you where they are found. You know where they are.

You may believe that they happen in the span of milliseconds or a minute or two.

I may believe that they happen in the span of 7 years or even more.

But we both subscribe to at least 2 comings of Christ - if we believe the scriptures.

 

[BABerean2]

That is the position that I tend to believe.

Because I take these things literally - I find the pre-trib position not only the most logical. I find it the most comforting by far.

In fact I find the other positions not only not comforting (as Paul intended the doctrine to be). I find most of them particularly disturbing considering my relationship with God through Christ.

Your doctrine fails the "Flesh Test" right away. If your flesh likes the idea, it is probably a false doctrine.

Jesus did not save your flesh. He saved your soul.

Do you really take things "literally"?


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in God's Word. There is no 8th.



1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jesus took our wrath at the cross. God pours out His wrath on the ungodly, after we are gathered at the 7th trump.
See Rev. 11:18.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
This verse connects chapter 5 to the famous rapture passage of chapter 4 and rules out any 7 year stay in heaven before the Day of the Lord, found in chapter 5.
We are gathered at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.



1Ti_6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:



2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;



Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1Pe_1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

The "Secret Rapture" is a fairy-tale.





Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. )



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


The pretrib doctrine only works if you ignore the scripture listed above.

.

 

[Straightshot]

"Show us where in His prophetic word it is mentioned that there is 2 Second Coming of Jesus yet to come ?"


Read post 229 RB ... the Lord is only going to intervene in the fairs of humanity .... once

Your "twice" trickery is moot

 

[Straightshot]

"Your doctrine fails the "Flesh Test" right away. If your flesh likes the idea, it is probably a false doctrine."


What an outlandish statement to make

What doctrine does your flesh like?

I think you are out to destroy the hope of the believer .... and to intentionally refute the Lord's promise

You can say it .... but you cannot do it

 

[BABerean2]

"Your doctrine fails the "Flesh Test" right away. If your flesh likes the idea, it is probably a false doctrine."


What an outlandish statement to make

What doctrine does your flesh like?

I think you are out to destroy the hope of the believer .... and to intentionally refute the Lord's promise

You can say it .... but you cannot do it

Paul did not think it was an outlandish idea...

Rom_6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Rom_7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom_7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom_8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom_8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
They cannot be crying out if they are unaware.

How can souls cry out if they are not aware?

Any doctrine that only works by ignoring some verses, is false.
This fact is the truth.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:​

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?​

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

Bab, those souls can't really cry out because they're not alive. They're not really even in Heaven's Temple under the alter. Those souls are still dead like everyone else who ever died and waiting for Jesus to raise them up on the last day. Jesus is not really even speaking to the souls under the alter, He's speaking to the last generation of Christians that will be alive during the tribulation. It's a similar situation to this verse from Genesis:

"And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground"
​

How can Abel's blood cry out from the ground? Blood can't cry out from the ground. It can't. This is just a literary device called the personification of an inanimate object. Blood can't talk and neither do the dead.

Under the alter of burnt offering there was a container that held the blood from the sacrifices. That's why the souls were said to be crying out from that location "under" the alter. It's their blood crying out from the location where blood was stored after the sacrifice, like Abel's blood crying out from the ground. This is a figure of speech like "I could eat a horse" or "your tongue will dig your grave". My tongue can't really dig a grave but if I shoot my mouth off too much...I bet that you're smarter than me and will figure it out for yourself.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Your doctrine fails the "Flesh Test" right away. If your flesh likes the idea, it is probably a false doctrine.

Jesus did not save your flesh. He saved your soul.

Do you really take things "literally"?


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in God's Word. There is no 8th.



1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jesus took our wrath at the cross. God pours out His wrath on the ungodly, after we are gathered at the 7th trump.
See Rev. 11:18.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
This verse connects chapter 5 to the famous rapture passage of chapter 4 and rules out any 7 year stay in heaven before the Day of the Lord, found in chapter 5.
We are gathered at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.



1Ti_6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:



2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;



Tit_2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1Pe_1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

The "Secret Rapture" is a fairy-tale.





Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. )



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


The pretrib doctrine only works if you ignore the scripture listed above.

.

"My" doctrine passes the Spirit test. The flesh has nothing to do with.

We discern the meaning of scripture by the Spirit - not the flesh.

We are comforted by scripture in the spirit and soul, not the flesh.

You put a lot of work into that post considering that it proves nothing you subscribe to and it refutes nothing I subscribe to.

Probably better theologians than you and I have been through this and come to different conclusions.

I agree with the ones who see a pre-trib rapture.

The doctrine also comforts my soul and spirit via the Spirit of Christ (the comforter) - the one who also wrote it.

 

[BABerean2]

You put a lot of work into that post considering that it proves nothing you subscribe to and it refutes nothing I subscribe to.

Probably better theologians than you and I have been through this and come to different conclusions.

I agree with the ones who see a pre-trib rapture.

The doctrine also comforts by soul and spirit via the Spirit of Christ (the comforter) - the one who also wrote it.

If you can read the scripture I posted above and come up with a pretrib rapture, nothing I could ever say can get you to change your mind.

However, I will leave you with several truths that can be proven with mathematical certainty.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at the time of the American Revolution. Anyone who says otherwise is twisting the truth.

Grant Jeffrey was trying so hard to prove a pretrib rapture that he was willing to cut out the posttrib writings of many of the early Church Fathers to prove his point.
Saying that he was not honest would be an understatement.

John Nelson Darby brought the pretrib doctrine to America around the time of the Civil War.
Since that time it has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church.

Pastors that I know personally have been persecuted for not believing the pretrib doctrine.

The links below will confirm what is stated above.



Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

The History of Dispensationalism in America
http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/

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[BABerean2]

Under the alter of burnt offering there was a container that held the blood from the sacrifices. That's why the souls were said to be crying out from that location "under" the alter. It's their blood crying out from the location where blood was stored after the sacrifice, like Abel's blood crying out from the ground. This is a figure of speech like "I could eat a horse" or "your tongue will dig your grave". My tongue can't really dig a grave but if I shoot my mouth off too much...I bet that you're smarter than me and will figure it out for yourself.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus clearly says above we have both a body and a soul.

Do you accept the words of Christ written above?

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[Dave Watchman]

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus clearly says above we have both a body and a soul.

Do you accept the words of Christ written above?

For sure, but they still don't address the souls under the alter issue from Revelation 6.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"- Ezekiel 18:20

Strong's 5315.
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

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