What does Catholicism have to do with Messianic Judaism????

ContraMundum

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outsidethecamp

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I'll have a look when I'm ready for yet another theory on Revelation. Thanks for pointing it out to the forum, as people here do tend to investigate things.

Good deal. Glad you will do that.

No doubt you have heard of these interpretations of Revelation:

(1) Preterist interpretation. This label is derived from the Latin word praeter, meaning "past." This interpretation views the pictures of Revelation as referring to what was happening in the past, in the first century. They see the images as representing governmental persecution during the reign of either Nero or Domitian. Most understand Revelation chapters 21 and 22 as referring to the future, but there are some who "spiritualize" and put all 22 chapters of Revelation back in the past of the first century.

(2) Historicist interpretation. This interpretation stretches out the images of Revelation to refer to the history of the Western church. For example, the "fifth trumpet" has been interpreted as the Mohammedans in the 7th century; the "sixth trumpet" has been viewed as the invasion of the Turks. Chapter 10 allegedly refers to the "strong angel" who announces the Reformation when the "little book" was found, i.e. the Bible. The "seven thunders" are against the Pope. Revelation 11 and the measuring of the temple is interpreted as the Reformation determination of the true church, and the two witnesses have been interpreted as Luther and Calvin against Rome. The ultimate victory is the overthrow of the Roman papacy.

(3) Futurist interpretation. Revelation 1-3 is recognized to be in the past, but 4-22 are regarded as the record of future events in the seven-year tribulation, leading to the second coming and the millennium. Ryrie, for example, takes 1:19 as the structural "key" for Revelation: (1) "things seen" - 1:9-20 (2) "things which are" - 2:1-3:22 (3) "things which shall take place" (4:1-19:21 in the tribulation; 20:1-15 in the millennium, etc.)

This one is the Triumphalist interpretation.
 
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visionary

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The old view is still ok, actually. Not all things in Revelation have come to pass. A newer view says that nothing in Revelation has come to pass.
Not according to Revelation...
Rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 
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visionary

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According to a report in the Tablet, Cardinal Koch, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Commission for Religious Relations with Jews, on a recent visit to Jerusalem, stressed “no conversion for the Jews,” saying:

“We Christians must not bear witness in relation to the Jews to a path of salvation which is completely foreign to them, as we do with other religions. This is because the New Testament is built up totally on the basis of the Old Testament. The Catholic Church therefore does not have an organized Jewish mission, as certain Evangelical groups do.”
https://harvestingthefruit.com/koch/
 
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Open Heart

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There are legitimate issues of contention between MJ and RC. on how people should follow Yeshua. Look in the CCC:

2175 "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death
"
This is true, because the Church is for the most part made up of gentiles. The Sabbath was given to Israel and not to the Nations. In the council of Jerusalem, Gentile believers were not given Sabbath keeping as a requirement. As far as meeting on Sunday goes, we know that this began in Acts 20:7 for the breaking of break, just as in the Catholic Church today.

Now just as the Catholic church does not require the keeping of Sabbath, neither does it prohibit it. I and many other Hebrew Catholics keep Sabbath. If you want to keep Sabbath, more power to you.
 
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Open Heart

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According to a report in the Tablet, Cardinal Koch, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Commission for Religious Relations with Jews, on a recent visit to Jerusalem, stressed “no conversion for the Jews,” saying:

“We Christians must not bear witness in relation to the Jews to a path of salvation which is completely foreign to them, as we do with other religions. This is because the New Testament is built up totally on the basis of the Old Testament. The Catholic Church therefore does not have an organized Jewish mission, as certain Evangelical groups do.”
https://harvestingthefruit.com/koch/
What does this have to do with the OP?
 
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ContraMundum

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Good deal. Glad you will do that.

No doubt you have heard of these interpretations of Revelation:

Yep.

This one is the Triumphalist interpretation.

It looks a lot like one of the Post-Mil positions, actually. At least so far.
 
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Norbert L

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This is true, because the Church is for the most part made up of gentiles. The Sabbath was given to Israel and not to the Nations. In the council of Jerusalem, Gentile believers were not given Sabbath keeping as a requirement. As far as meeting on Sunday goes, we know that this began in Acts 20:7 for the breaking of break, just as in the Catholic Church today.

Now just as the Catholic church does not require the keeping of Sabbath, neither does it prohibit it. I and many other Hebrew Catholics keep Sabbath. If you want to keep Sabbath, more power to you.
I've read of cases that involve believers not buying into every word that is involved with the official stance their church. Do you think it's possible for a difference in messages to exist between the immediate companions of Yeshua which he prayed for and for those who would later believe on Him through their message? "I pray not only for these, but also for those who believe in Me through their message.." (John 17:20)
 
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Open Heart

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I've read of cases that involve believers not buying into every word that is involved with the official stance their church.
I'm not sure which of two meanings you mean. If you mean that the church is not sincere in what it says, I would have to disagree. If there is one thing you can say about the Catholic church, it's that it is very authoritarian. If you mean there are Catholics that don't follow every teaching, this is certainly true. For example, there are plenty of Catholics who use birth control. There are nominal believers in every church.
 
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visionary

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I'm not sure which of two meanings you mean. If you mean that the church is not sincere in what it says, I would have to disagree. If there is one thing you can say about the Catholic church, it's that it is very authoritarian. If you mean there are Catholics that don't follow every teaching, this is certainly true. For example, there are plenty of Catholics who use birth control. There are nominal believers in every church.
I agree... very authoritarian.... Leading in gathering the religious leaders of the world under the umbrella he created. Ultimately, it will be the world that looks to the papacy for reglious guidance. When that is secure, we will again see the dark ages for those who are not a part of this alamalgamation. http://www.news.va/en/news/religious-leaders-gathered-in-the-Vatican-for-the
 
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Open Heart

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I agree... very authoritarian.... Leading in gathering the religious leaders of the world under the umbrella he created. Ultimately, it will be the world that looks to the papacy for reglious guidance. When that is secure, we will again see the dark ages for those who are not a part of this alamalgamation. http://www.news.va/en/news/religious-leaders-gathered-in-the-Vatican-for-the
The only religion the Pope is pushing is the gospel of Christianity, and the Church that Jesus Christ founded. Any other ideas about blending with other religions to found some new world religions are just unfounded. Finding a shared cause with other religions, such as the eradication of modern slavery, is NOT the same as forming a one world religion.
 
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Open Heart

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You amaze me... knowing the Jewish faith, which Yeshua lived breathed and died for, and the Catholic Church which has none of that.
You'll have to be more specific. I don't know what you are referring to, or what is so amazing. (Besides me in general :D )
 
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Norbert L

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I'm not sure which of two meanings you mean. If you mean that the church is not sincere in what it says, I would have to disagree. If there is one thing you can say about the Catholic church, it's that it is very authoritarian. If you mean there are Catholics that don't follow every teaching, this is certainly true. For example, there are plenty of Catholics who use birth control. There are nominal believers in every church.
The way I would explain this is, sincerity does not determine truth. There are a number of people within Christianity who are sincere in their belief that their church has the authority to interpret that original ancient message into meaning that gay marriage is also a Christian practice.
 
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Ken Rank

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Oh gosh, where to start?

I don't think "The Lord's Day" has any singular definition in scripture. I think squeezing the NT usage into one single prophetic usage seems a little out of context.

"The day of the LORD" was used in the Tanach as a reference to end time events. "The Lord's Day".... the same phrase written in reverse order but that doesn't alter any meaning here... appears on time in the NT and that in a book discussing prophesy, mostly end time. The man who wrote it was having a vision ("I was in the spirit on the Lord's day...") and thus I think it is out of context and squeezing the meaning to assume it means a "day of the week" when the use of "Lord's Day" doesn't appear in external writings until ABOUT the middle of the 2nd century.

Furthermore, the testimony of the early Christians is in tandem with the traditional understanding, and the idea that it is purely a reference to the prophetic end-times I have yet to see taught by the ancients. Please understand that I put ancient consensus way above modern speculations and assertions. They decided on and gave us the canon after all.

The NT wasn't compiled and canonized until 200AD (ish) and by then "Lord's Day" was well in use and meaning SUNDAY, actually... that word didn't even exist then... but it meant the 1st day of the week. However, that isn't how it was used in Scripture, that use came about when after Yeshua resurrected on the first day of the week, a SMALL amount of Jewish believers saw that as a sign and set that day apart ALSO. However, the "also" got lost when, after the bar Khokba revolt and the Greeks began to be the majority face of the faith, they gravitated toward the first day and the perceived sign it represented and within 20 years of the bar Khokba revolt, more "Christians" were keeping Sunday over Saturday. But, there is no Scriptural mandate to move the Sabbath, there is no Scriptural mandate calling a day of the week by the already known phrase, "The Lord's day." It had a prophetic meaning and it also had a religious CULTURAL meaning and the church has been following the cultural meaning since then. I don't... and while I respect your views I won't change. Yeshua kept the 7th and he is the model I believe we are to follow.

Secondly, the Council of Laodicea is not an ecumenical council. It was only a local council.

Agreed, I should not have used this as my example. What I should have used was the Constantine decree of making Sunday the legal day of worship. That said, while you are correct that the Council of Laodicea was a local Council... it's decrees are exalted by the church to this day and you know that. It is counted among the early Christian writings and carry as much weight as any early Council.

In other words, when a part of the church starts to create a new doctrine around what is clearly adiaphora (eg. Rom. 14 type things) then the ancients would often make a halachic ruling that strengthened the opposite position. In this case, clearly some people had begun to teach that the only legal time to worship God was on the Sabbath, thus violating the authority of Christ and the scriptures. The response was rather an example of Newton's law- the action created an equal but opposite reaction- Sabbath keeping was ruled out in protection of the principles outlined in the scriptures eg Rom 14. Both positions equally wrong. However, the canons of Laodicea were never regarded as either universally binding or infallible dogma. Nor can it be proven that they bring in a new theological innovation. Only half-witted modern "scholars" make such absurd and baseless assertions. Those modern spirits have a lot of influence in the Messianic movement, sadly.

We don't see Romans 14 the same at all. I see Paul understanding that within the ranks there were many other fasts and days set apart, in addition to his understanding where others came from and what foods they used and did not use... and he is saying that if you want to keep the The Fast of Gedaliah or desire to set the day of Purim aside, you can but what you can't do is make that a decree over all. That is what Romans 14:1 is saying.... you can receive into the faith those who do these things but NOT until a doubtful disputation or as Strong's defines the last word, "judicial estimation." So it is NOT a verse to use to validate church decree, it is specifically saying the opposite.

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Open Heart

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The way I would explain this is, sincerity does not determine truth. There are a number of people within Christianity who are sincere in their belief that their church has the authority to interpret that original ancient message into meaning that gay marriage is also a Christian practice.
Quite true.
 
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beyerz

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I post all over CF. I post in the theology section, the ethics section, etc. If I want to talk about Catholic stuff, I don't post about it here. I don't see what it has to do with Messianic Judaism. I will post in OBOB, or in one of the other appropriate forums such as Mariology.

Yet when I come in here, there is always a thread or two going about the Catholic church or the pope (and not usually a nice one). Why? Why HERE?

I don't think it's appropriate to the forum. It's not in the rules, and there's nothing I do about it. But I can have my say, and my say is this: I wish you'd take it to the proper forum and leave it out of MJ.


In my personal experiences this is a result of bitterness. While that may not be true of those posting here, I agree with your position on the matter here.
 
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ContraMundum

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. it's decrees are exalted by the church to this day and you know that.

No, I've never seen them exalted at all.

It is counted among the early Christian writings and carry as much weight as any early Council.

Absolutely not. The Seven Ecumenical Councils are held in dogmatic regard only on certain matters. Not every canon is considered de fide and the disciplinary canons are pretty much ignored.

We don't see Romans 14 the same at all.

OK.
 
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Ken Rank

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Absolutely not. The Seven Ecumenical Councils are held in dogmatic regard only on certain matters. Not every canon is considered de fide and the disciplinary canons are pretty much ignored.

Well, I have seen this particular council quoted to support church dogma. No matter, and no hard feelings I hope? We simply don't see eye to eye here, not a big deal. :)
 
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