Can I be Christian and Not Believe the Bible?
- Thread starter Givemeareason
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kcmonseysr
Christian Zionist
- Jan 27, 2014
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Mike - can't be absolutely sure since I don't have access to his heart thoughts, but I am suspecting that you may be correct. I just see wheels spinning in the mud at this point - and he is not seeming to be really interested at all. Just saying...
I think that you have done that ("thinking positively of...") very well - even though I, personally, am too much of a "fundie" to buy into most of your ("high church"??) arguments
.So, "givemeareason" - I think that you have been well answered by many, and I leave you to discuss this, if you should choose, with the God whom you seem to try to deny. There's really no such thing as a true atheist, you know. Best wishes (i.e. a Calvinistic "Good Luck") with that discussion...
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No, you can not be a Christian and not believe the Bible. And you don't become a Christian by simply deciding to be one. It's not like joining a club, a religion or cult. Jesus said in John 3:3-7, unless you are born again, you can not enter the Kingdom of God. You must be born again by the Spirit of God. That is how a person becomes a Christian. It is not a human work, it is the work of God alone. This is called conversion and regeneration and it starts with repentance of your sins, and trusting in Jesus Christ alone for the salvation of your soul.
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Hi Givemereason,
Jesus was an observant Jew, attending synagogues, observing festivals & going up on pilgrimage to the Temple in Jerusalem.
But he is always trying to put the Horse back in front of the cart (where the "really religious" people had reversed things)..... See Mark 7:1-13 for example.
So he is upbraided for breaking petty, washing-rules, consorting with sinners, working (by healing) on the Sabbath. He shrugs off all the rules and laws men always make to prevent God's will really being observed........i.e. Love of God and our (needy) neighbour. He sums up the OT ("The Law & the Prophets") As "Love of God & neighbour"....."On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."(Matt 25:40)
When asked "what neighbour" he tells us "The one in need" with the good Samaritan parable; and he says judgement is solely on this basis (Matt 25:32 following).
Christ, like all the prophets, calls people back to the truth......there in their religion..... that they prefer to ignore.
This "religious" tendency is always there. Many prefer a nice egoic battle, to "convert others to my way of thinking", to relieving inequality & suffering (perhaps in the Evangelical tradition). In the Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican tradition they may be content with the "spiritual relaxtion" aspect of liturgical observance instead.
Christ fulfils & completes the OT in so many ways, and in so many layers of significance, that Judaism is now frozen tragically awaiting the bus that has gone. The torch of hope (for salvation for all nations) carried by the Jews (& their scriptures) has arrived. So the OT is His witness, a treasure to mine (with good scholarship). With Pentecost His Church was born with the Spirit he sent.
And as Paul said, (2Cor)....... "(He) made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life".
So I am uneasy with fundamentalist dead-letter, black-and-white, bible-thumping. It is one of those "reversions" that "religious" people can fall prey to.....instead of feeding the hungry etc.
Jesus was an observant Jew, attending synagogues, observing festivals & going up on pilgrimage to the Temple in Jerusalem.
But he is always trying to put the Horse back in front of the cart (where the "really religious" people had reversed things)..... See Mark 7:1-13 for example.
So he is upbraided for breaking petty, washing-rules, consorting with sinners, working (by healing) on the Sabbath. He shrugs off all the rules and laws men always make to prevent God's will really being observed........i.e. Love of God and our (needy) neighbour. He sums up the OT ("The Law & the Prophets") As "Love of God & neighbour"....."On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."(Matt 25:40)
When asked "what neighbour" he tells us "The one in need" with the good Samaritan parable; and he says judgement is solely on this basis (Matt 25:32 following).
Christ, like all the prophets, calls people back to the truth......there in their religion..... that they prefer to ignore.
This "religious" tendency is always there. Many prefer a nice egoic battle, to "convert others to my way of thinking", to relieving inequality & suffering (perhaps in the Evangelical tradition). In the Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican tradition they may be content with the "spiritual relaxtion" aspect of liturgical observance instead.
Christ fulfils & completes the OT in so many ways, and in so many layers of significance, that Judaism is now frozen tragically awaiting the bus that has gone. The torch of hope (for salvation for all nations) carried by the Jews (& their scriptures) has arrived. So the OT is His witness, a treasure to mine (with good scholarship). With Pentecost His Church was born with the Spirit he sent.
And as Paul said, (2Cor)....... "(He) made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life".
So I am uneasy with fundamentalist dead-letter, black-and-white, bible-thumping. It is one of those "reversions" that "religious" people can fall prey to.....instead of feeding the hungry etc.
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I have long heard Christians use the word "Grace" but I have never really bothered to try to understand it. But I have also long been moved by the song, "Amazing Grace" yet I have thought the person who wrote it had become delusional. However I have come to realize and now recognize that something I have long said may be very similar. I don't know if I heard this somewhere but I have long observed it to be true.
"Sometimes it is necessary to be wrong before we can become right."
Is that Grace?
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I like the born again point, but one doesn't have to believe all the Bible, Jesus knew some of the OT books were not accurate but he didn't want to destroy faith, reform Judaism or cause problems for future seekers of truth.
I was born again in 1985 and have had a relationship with God for years yet I don't believe about 90% of the Bible books.
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Saved because my heavenly Father loves me, not because I deserve anything. To me that's grace.
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I would probably say "grace" is something more akin to: "Wrongs are not held against you. You are free to be. It's not about becoming right, it's about being."
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Hi,
I hear the word grace and glory and life and salvation. Each of these words, I say God teaches you, what they actually mean.
Your, being here is grace. It feels like the reason you are here. Or, the reason you are here, in this Forum, is because Grace was given to you, to cause you to do something. You are doing that something. Grace caused it.
Within that set of stimulus, ('almost' unfelt), and response. Grace is the stimulus. You are here, you have been graced.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
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Sorry, but the entire bible is from God, God-breathed or inspired by Him (2 Timothy 3:16). You either believe the whole Bible or you believe not of it. You don't pick and choose what to believe or not believe. When did Jesus say that some of the OT were not accurate?
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But I do not believe. I cannot believe unless I know it to be truth. I have no faith. So when I became baptized at 16 I did so without faith. I entered into Baptism with expectation instead and only encountered disappointment.
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Hi,
If you are truly graced by God, meaning if you have a calling to look at Christianity and you are or were an atheist, then you should be entirely objective and fair. (Usually that is the characteristics of a true atheist. They just don't know, but they refuse to lie or take sides on an issue they have no facts on. Meaning no facts that they have checked out as true or false, on thier own, and by themselves.)
If you are that kind of an atheist, I was that kind by the technical definiton of atheism. Today I am an Gnostic Theist. Then I was a Agnostic Atheist. Notice how the words complicate things, unless you are into that.
All people who know God, know Him by this pattern.
1.) He calls. (That is possibly the point you are at now.)
2.) He gives you faith as a gift. (The calling in 1. and the gift in two are graces.)
3.) You then actually believe in Jesus Christ. (That is also a grace. You are given that ability)
This is what you experience in that process. "I did all the work" I searched for God"I found God"I, I, I"
Slowly as you are given more grace, called learning by you probably, that I will change.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
If you are truly graced by God, meaning if you have a calling to look at Christianity and you are or were an atheist, then you should be entirely objective and fair. (Usually that is the characteristics of a true atheist. They just don't know, but they refuse to lie or take sides on an issue they have no facts on. Meaning no facts that they have checked out as true or false, on thier own, and by themselves.)
If you are that kind of an atheist, I was that kind by the technical definiton of atheism. Today I am an Gnostic Theist. Then I was a Agnostic Atheist. Notice how the words complicate things, unless you are into that.
All people who know God, know Him by this pattern.
1.) He calls. (That is possibly the point you are at now.)
2.) He gives you faith as a gift. (The calling in 1. and the gift in two are graces.)
3.) You then actually believe in Jesus Christ. (That is also a grace. You are given that ability)
This is what you experience in that process. "I did all the work" I searched for God"I found God"I, I, I"
Slowly as you are given more grace, called learning by you probably, that I will change.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
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"Back to the topic"?
The question was "Can you be a Christian and not "Believe" the Bible?
Not "Can I not have a relationship with God apart from religious institutions" or "writings about God"?
The Bible is a writing about God but more importantly it is written BY God.
We can be a Christian and not have a Bible as this is true in many places that are forbidden to have one.
However, to be a "christian" and not BELIEVE the Bible.... IMO is not possible. Simply due to the fact that instructions on how to be a Christian are originally found in the Bible. This is akin to playing a sport professionally but not believing the rule book for that sport.
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Hi,
One day this happened to me. This might be your future. It may not be. I went from Agnostic Atheist to Gnostic Theist, practically instantly. Normally without the normal path that is called stupefication in the old days.
I in seventh grade essentially used your words. I was asked if I believed. "No, not without proof." That was both for God and for the religion I was born into. Your words of 'But I do not believe. I cannot unless I know it to be truth.' and 'I have no faith' seem identical in thoughts and thought to mine.
Being Baptized without faith, is probably perfect to God, but I would say most humans would be frightened by that. I say, you were baptized, and although you will worry about that, because you have no proofs, personal proofs to you, it is still quite valid.
For other Christians here, I will remind them of the unbaptized thief on the cross, and then they can feel better about you and what they know about God, in their world. They will worry about you attitude. I think you attitude was fine, as for them again, who is to say, that The Holy Spirit did not cause him to do this? Who of you can say that?
If you are looking into having a more profound God experience, then read the Bible. Then read it some more. Then read it some more.
I am a gnostic theist. I have knowledge of God. That is what that means. It is also provable, but that helps you not. I am just going to say some things, that are very gnostic.
"Since no valid proof of the Bible has ever been done. Have a go at proving the Bible wrong, on your own, and then present that proof to everyone. Wait, and when you are done, you will have done the world a great service. You will be famous. The Pope will love and thank you. So will everyone in Religion thank you, as no longer do they have to follow what is not right, merely because it might be right. You have removed Superstion from the world. You have let the world progress a little further."
You won't succeed though. You won't. However, the exerise will teach you much.
There are other ways to read that book, but for Atheists, I would say you need proof. The method shown will give you that proof.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
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