After the Thousand Years (An Interpretation of Rev. 20:7-10)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟22,009.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You highlighted the wrong part of this verse:

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein"

This angel is swearing by The God of creation (ever read John 1?), PROVING he is NOT the God of creation. Go back and read Rev. 19 again. THAT is His coming. He is not coming back until after the 70th week is finished. You who love to quote Matthew 24 should know this. Remember, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"??? What are you going to do? Rearrange Revelation to fit? Move "the tribulation of those days" to before the 7th trumpet?Always remember, the vials are very much a part of "the tribulation of those days."

This Almighty Angel is the Lord, because he stands supreme over the sea meaning humanity and over the land meaning Creation/Genesis. He swears to his highest office by himself. This Almighty Angel is the Angel of Yahweh's presence. Jesus would use the same manner of speech, for example:

I go up to my Father and your Father and my God and your God.

If we used your train of thought then you would rule out that Jesus is God right? .
We know that Jesus is God and what gives it away as far as this Almighty Angel, is that he has a rainbow above his head and when he speaks the seven thunders speak. The seven thunders is the Word coming directly from the mouth of God
 
Upvote 0

Straightshot

Member
Feb 13, 2015
4,742
295
56
✟16,234.00
Faith
Christian
My comment

Jesus Christ is not an angel in the first place

And I notice that you use "Yahweh" as your naming

What sect of professing Christianity do you follow? .... just curious

Do you also tell that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

If so .... no need to answer .... I already know
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I strongly suggest you read the Bible.

Revelation 20:13: The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 2:9: then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment

There is a difference between temporary and eternal.
How many sermons have been preached on the different words meaning "hell" and why though in different locations and state are still classified as "hell"?

You said:
That was sheol, there's a difference.
To which I replied:
No, there's not. There is only one place sinners go to spend eternity, and it's the lake of fire which is also called Sheol or Hell.
What does the verses you posted have to do with there being only one place sinners go to spend eternity? The rich man was in the lake of fire, which is also called Sheol, Hell, the only place sinners go to burn and be tormented. You can't be that naive.
 
Upvote 0

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Why don't you show us a verse proving your false theory" that "hell" and the "lake of fire" are one and the same.
Are you claiming where the rich man ends up after death isn't the lake of fire? And if you are, maybe you, could provide a verse proving there's another place sinners go after death to be tormented forever and ever, other than the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
I guess it was to much temptation for the "peanut gallery", even though it was addressed to jwmealy.

It was the "forbidden fruit".

He just had to bite into it, right Lamad.
You write nonsense on a public forum - and expect to get away with it?
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
This Almighty Angel is the Lord, because he stands supreme over the sea meaning humanity and over the land meaning Creation/Genesis. He swears to his highest office by himself. This Almighty Angel is the Angel of Yahweh's presence. Jesus would use the same manner of speech, for example:

I go up to my Father and your Father and my God and your God.

If we used your train of thought then you would rule out that Jesus is God right? .
We know that Jesus is God and what gives it away as far as this Almighty Angel, is that he has a rainbow above his head and when he speaks the seven thunders speak. The seven thunders is the Word coming directly from the mouth of God
Adam Clarke Commentaries:
Verse 1. Another mighty angel
Either Christ or his representative; clothed with a cloud; a symbol of the Divine majesty.

A rainbow was upon his head
The token of God's merciful covenant with mankind.

His face was as it were the sun
So intensely glorious that it could not be looked on.

His feet as pillars of fire
To denote the rapidity and energy of his motions, and the stability of his counsels.

Verse 2. A little book open
Meaning probably some design of God long concealed, but now about to be made manifest. But who knows what it means?

His right foot upon the sea, and his left-on the earth
To show that he had the command of each, and that his power was universal, all things being under his feet.

Coffman Commentaries:
I saw another strong angel ...
Some take this being to be Christ himself; but, as Earle wrote, "It is generally agreed that another mighty angel would not refer to the Son of God." F12 Still it is true that this angel's description resembles that of the glorified Christ (Revelation 1:16). Some have identified this angel as Gabriel, F13 or Martin Luther; F14 but it is our view that the rank and importance of this celestial being is to be stressed rather than his personal identity, which is not given. "Of all the angels who inhabit the pages of John's book, only three are called mighty.

Barnes Notes:
An angel descends from heaven, and the attention of the seer is for a time turned from the contemplation of what was passing in heaven to this new vision that appeared on the earth. This angel is clothed with a cloud; he is encircled by a rainbow; his face is as the sun, am/his feet like pillars of fire:--all indicating his exalted rank, and all such accompaniments as became a heavenly messenger.

John Darby:
Christ comes down and affirms His right to all below; puts His right foot on the sea, the left on the earth, and utters the voice of His might, to which the voice of the Almighty in power answers. But its revelations were sealed up; but Christ swears by Him who lives for ever and ever that there should be no more delay.

John Gill Commentaries:
(I hope you will laugh at this one! Can you even imagine "A mighty angel" and someone thinks this is referring to a man?)
And I saw another mighty angel
Not any mere man, as Justin the emperor, as some have thought, who sent letters abroad in favour of the orthodox doctrine, against the Arians, which they suppose is meant by the little book open in his right hand; and still less the pope of Rome, whether in the sense of Papists or Protestants, which latter represent him as a tyrant, treading upon men both in the islands and in the continent, and holding forth the book of canons and decrees; rather, as Mr. Daubuz thinks, Luther, with the rest of the reformers, is intended, and especially since the prophecy of this chapter respects the Reformation, which began before the end of the sixth trumpet;

"but the uncreated Angel, the Lord Jesus Christ, seems rather designed, as appears both by comparing this with (Daniel 12:7) (10:5,6) ; and from the power lie gave to the two witnesses, (Revelation 11:3)"

David Guzik:
Another mighty angel coming down from heaven: Many have identified this mighty angel, this messenger, as Jesus because some of the imagery also applies to Him. Revelation 1:15-16 also describes Jesus with His countenance . . . like the sun shining in its strength.

i. But, angels are never clearly identified with Jesus in Revelation or in the New Testament, though He is clearly associated with the "Angel of the LORD" in the Old Testament. A better identification is with Michael, because there are also similarities to this mighty angel and to Michael as he is described in Daniel 12:1 and 12:6-7.

c. A rainbow was on his head: Not only is the rainbow a reminder of God's promise to man, but it is also a natural result when the sun shines through a cloud.

d. Whoever his exact identity, "clearly this angel has come from the very presence of God" (Barclay), and shows great might and authority.

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentaries:
1. another mighty angel--as distinguished from the mighty angel who asked as to the former and more comprehensive book (Re 5:2), "Who is worthy to open the book?"
clothed with a cloud--the emblem of God coming in judgment.
a--A, B, C, and Aleph read "the"; referring to (Re 4:3) the rainbow already mentioned.
rainbow upon his head--the emblem of covenant mercy to God's people, amidst judgments on God's foes. Resumed from Re 4:3 (see on Re 4:3).
face as . . . the sun-- (Re 1:16; 18:1).
feet as pillars of fire-- (Re 1:15; Eze 1:7). The angel, as representative of Christ, reflects His glory and bears the insignia attributed in Re 1:15, 16; 4:3, to Christ Himself. The pillar of fire by night led Israel through the wilderness, and was the symbol of God's presence.

Matthew Henry Commentaries:
I. The person who was principally concerned in communicating this discovery to John--an angel from heaven, another mighty angel, who is so set forth as would induce one to think it could be no other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! 1. He was clothed with a cloud: he veils his glory, which is too great for mortality to behold; and he throws a veil upon his dispensations. Clouds and darkness are round about him. 2. A rainbow was upon his head; he is always mindful of his covenant, and, when his conduct is most mysterious, yet it is perfectly just and faithful. 3. His face was as the sun, all bright, and full of lustre and majesty, Revelation 1:16. 4. His feet were as pillars of fire; all his ways, both of grace and providence, are pure and steady.

II. His station and posture: He set his right foot upon the sea and his left foot upon the earth, to show the absolute power and dominion he had over the world. And he held in his hand a little book opened, probably the same that was before sealed, but was now opened, and gradually fulfilled by him.

III. His awful voice: He cried aloud, as when a lion roareth (Revelation 10:3), and his awful voice was echoed by seven thunders, seven solemn and terrible ways of discovering the mind of God.

IV. The prohibition given to the apostle, that he should not publish, but conceal what he had learned from the seven thunders, Revelation 10:4. The apostle was for preserving and publishing every thing he saw and heard in these visions, but the time had not yet come.

V. The solemn oath taken by this mighty angel. 1. The manner of his swearing: He lifted up his hand to heaven, and swore by him that liveth for ever, by himself, as God often has done, or by God as God, to whom he, as Lord, Redeemer, and ruler of the world, now appeals. 2. The matter of the oath: that there shall be time no longer; either, (1.) That there shall be now no longer delay in fulfilling the predictions of this book than till the last angel should sound; then every thing should be put into speedy execution:

Robertson's Word Pictures:

After discussing how this angel appeared wrote, "still no proof that this angel is Christ."

There you have it: the "experts" don't agree: Some think it is Jesus - yet some don't.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Are you claiming where the rich man ends up after death isn't the lake of fire? And if you are, maybe you, could provide a verse proving there's another place sinners go after death to be tormented forever and ever, other than the lake of fire.

What does God tell us?
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

God does not say "lake of fire" here; He used the word "hell."

Jesus said once, "Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Therefore we know that there is fire in hell, just not the lake of fire.

Jesus said, "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Again we see that hell has fire. What we don't see when Jesus spoke of hell is a "lake of fire."

God has taken many people over the last 20 years or so to SEE hell. Their description is much like Jesus describes and much like the rich man experienced. Perhaps you should read some of these personal testimonies.
 
Upvote 0
Apr 21, 2015
1,919
1,045
✟25,183.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What does the verses you posted have to do with there being only one place sinners go to spend eternity? The rich man was in the lake of fire, which is also called Sheol, Hell, the only place sinners go to burn and be tormented. You can't be that naive.

The point of it was to show you the difference between temporary and eternal punishment. Not quite sure where naive comes into it.

I'll re-post the verse since it seems you overlooked them.

Revelation 20:13: The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hades, this being the prime word used in the Lazarus verses you are noting. Is delivering up their dead, to be judged then cast into the lake of fire, how are they the same thing?
 
Upvote 0

Straightshot

Member
Feb 13, 2015
4,742
295
56
✟16,234.00
Faith
Christian
"You didn't answer my question. If no one can lift up their head in the lake of fire, why would God say the rich man did?"

Oh yes I did answer [your debating tactics are a dime a dozen and mean nothing to me]

.... Because His message was a parable .... just as I explained

A message illustrated in their own terms for the religious crowd of the day who were against Him .... so that they could understand His point

.... That they were all on a track to their own destruction

There are no contradictions in His Word .... no heads will be raised for anything when the fire meets the recipients [Revelation 20:13-15]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You write nonsense on a public forum - and expect to get away with it?

I love you, Lamad.


Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
Upvote 0

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
What does God tell us?
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

God does not say "lake of fire" here; He used the word "hell."
Again I ask, where else do sinners go after death?

Jesus said once, "Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Therefore we know that there is fire in hell, just not the lake of fire.
So, there's fire in hell, but hell is not the lake of fire? And there are two places sinners go after death?

Jesus said, "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Again we see that hell has fire. What we don't see when Jesus spoke of hell is a "lake of fire."
You are not that naive. There's only one place sinners go after death, the lake of fire, which is hell.

God has taken many people over the last 20 years or so to SEE hell. Their description is much like Jesus describes and much like the rich man experienced. Perhaps you should read some of these personal testimonies.
You're only fooling yourself because the world and I know better. The only hell anyone has been taken to see in the last twenty yrs is the one in their dreams.

Keep believing on the world and people, and not on God's word.

They probably saw dinosaurs, Cro-Magnon, and Bigfoot there too.

Go figure!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The point of it was to show you the difference between temporary and eternal punishment. Not quite sure where naive comes into it.

I'll re-post the verse since it seems you overlooked them.

Revelation 20:13: The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hades, this being the prime word used in the Lazarus verses you are noting. Is delivering up their dead, to be judged then cast into the lake of fire, how are they the same thing?
Like I asked you before, "How many sermon have been preached on the different places and states that are defined under the word hell?"

Hades, Hell, Gehenna, etc all relate to the same thing, but can relate to different states and places.

The grave is referred to as Hades in some scripture, specifically in the verse you are quoting.

Gehenna, another word used for hell, was also Israel's garbage dump that burned continually. They are metaphors for the place of eternal abode for sinners, death, and the grave.

So, based on the text, Rev 20:13 is referring to the grave because no one comes out of a placing of burning and torment to then go to the lake of fire to be burned and tormented forever. That's redundant.

Death and the grave (Hades) go hand in hand, and we know the rich man was already dead and resurrected. So, he was in the lake of fire, Hades, Sheol, etc.

No one anywhere else but in the lake of fire can see persons in heaven, which is another proof for the fact. The lake of fire is situated in the presence of the angels and the Lamb, Rev 14:10.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
"You didn't answer my question. If no one can lift up their head in the lake of fire, why would God say the rich man did?"

Oh yes I did answer [your debating tactics are a dime a dozen and mean nothing to me]

.... Because His message was a parable .... just as I explained
So, you are saying God is lying because it's a parable?

A message illustrated in their own terms for the religious crowd of the day who were against Him .... so that they could understand His point
So, God just made up the scenario of the rich man lifting up his head contrary to the fact of no one being able to do it?

.... That they were all on a track to their own destruction

There are no contradictions in His Word .... no heads will be raised for anything when the fire meets the recipients [Revelation 20:13-15]
But yet Christ said so in a parable. Wow! LOL!
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
I love you, Lamad.


Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


I do hope we will both be "conformed to the image of His Son."

What we are both looking for, or should be looking for, is TRUTH: the real intent of the Author in these scriptures.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Again I ask, where else do sinners go after death?

So, there's fire in hell, but hell is not the lake of fire? And there are two places sinners go after death?

You are not that naive. There's only one place sinners go after death, the lake of fire, which is hell.

You're only fooling yourself because the world and I know better. The only hell anyone has been taken to see in the last twenty yrs is the one in their dreams.

Keep believing on the world and people, and not on God's word.

They probably saw dinosaurs, Cro-Magnon, and Bigfoot there too.

Go figure!

It is amazing that one has to spoon feed people who come here to teach others.

It is written, and you know it as well as I, that the rich man was taken to hell, and in hell he was in torture.
Agreed? Cain, for example, has been in hell since the days of Adam. Untold millions have followed. Hell has been expanded to hold the untold millions that are there. it matters not if you don't believe it - it is true anyway. A Pope was seen in hell. Famous singers have been seen there. Hitler has for sure been there since the 1940's. Stalin is quite likely there. But millions of unknown people are there. With this in mind, what does God say?

Rev. 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Let's take Cain for an example: He has spent nearly 6000 years in hell. When the 1000 year reign of Christ is over and the last battle is fought, and it is time for the great, white throne judgment, all those in hell will be RAISED or resurrected to stand trial before the Ancient of Days. Cain will finally be resurrected, and stand before God. When he is judged, he will be sent to the lake of fire. He suffered his FIRST death almost 6000 years ago and was sent to hades or hell. But when he is sent to the lake of fire, it is the SECOND DEATH. Surely you know enough about numbers to know that first and second are difference and can never be the same.

Therefore your theory is simply wrong. Hell is NOT the lake of fire. The Beast and False prophet will be the first humans to enter the lake of fire. Satan will follow them. And after the white throne judgment, all of hell will follow them. This is the truth of scripture. Don't waste your breath trying to refute truth. You will be wasting your time.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
So, you are saying God is lying because it's a parable?

So, God just made up the scenario of the rich man lifting up his head contrary to the fact of no one being able to do it?

But yet Christ said so in a parable. Wow! LOL!

Actually, it is a true story, NOT a parable. But even if it was a parable, the information given would be truth.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,620
744
78
Home in Tulsa
✟101,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Like I asked you before, "How many sermon have been preached on the different places and states that are defined under the word hell?"

Hades, Hell, Gehenna, etc all relate to the same thing, but can relate to different states and places.

The grave is referred to as Hades in some scripture, specifically in the verse you are quoting.

Gehenna, another word used for hell, was also Israel's garbage dump that burned continually. They are metaphors for the place of eternal abode for sinners, death, and the grave.

So, based on the text, Rev 20:13 is referring to the grave because no one comes out of a placing of burning and torment to then go to the lake of fire to be burned and tormented forever. That's redundant.

Death and the grave (Hades) go hand in hand, and we know the rich man was already dead and resurrected. So, he was in the lake of fire, Hades, Sheol, etc.

No one anywhere else but in the lake of fire can see persons in heaven, which is another proof for the fact. The lake of fire is situated in the presence of the angels and the Lamb, Rev 14:10.

You just continue to teach false doctrine. Go back and read the gospels: Jesus speaks often of hell - the place sinners go after death. And He tells us there will be FIRE and where there are worms that don't die. Yet, they are not resurrected, but are dead - meaning it is their SPIRIT with their soul that goes to hell. NO sinner will be resurrected until after Jesus' 1000 year reign, far into our future. Yet, the rich man was cast into hell after death.

Face it: you just ad libbed his resurrection. He is STILL in hell waiting resurrection. You are wrong. Hell is NOT eternal, it is only a temporary holding place. Sinners will be resurrected and brought out of hell, judged and then cast into their eternal abode: the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jwmealy

Newbie
Oct 7, 2014
194
3
✟7,944.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Are you claiming where the rich man ends up after death isn't the lake of fire? And if you are, maybe you, could provide a verse proving there's another place sinners go after death to be tormented forever and ever, other than the lake of fire.
I'll stand up and claim that where the rich man goes is not the lake of fire. Two reasons. (1) he is not yet resurrected, nor is Lazarus. His brothers are still living normal mortal lives in this age. (2) John sees hades give up the dead that are in it to be judged in Rev. 20:13, then he sees death and hades cast into the lake of fire along with those whose names are not listed in the book of life. Ergo, hades is pictured as a temporary state of imprisonment for the unrepentant between death and resurrection, a prison to which Jesus himself has the keys (Rev. 1:18). Before you answer, please consider that you could be invited to the Lord's wedding banquet and be seated right next to me. Please reply in a way that would not make you embarrassed at the way you had treated your Christian brother.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.