Are Mormons and JWs Christians?

[TheBarrd]

It is true that this forum is run by others. Those people emailed me, inviting me to participate. The Church of Jesus Christ is Christian by definition. I have asked for and have yet to get a valid scriptural definition of Christian. Since you are unable to answer this simple query tells me a lot about the confusion of the Christian community to identify itself.

You have been told many times that the "definition of Christian" is someone who believes according to the Nicene Creed. There is no confusion. We know in Whom we have believed.

 

[mikejduk]

We believe in the Jesus who was born of Mary in Bethlehem, lived 33 years and died on the Cross. If this is not the Jesus you believe in then who is your Jesus?

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding the situation here. Having just jumped in and posted my own views on this question, reading between the lines here I'm getting the impression that RDKatz is defending the Mormon faith. In answer to this latest response, the Jesus we as Christians love and serve is nothing like the 'Jesus' referred to in Joseph Smith's writings.The greatest difference is, as Christians we acknowledge that Jesus IS the Son of God, Emmanuel, 'God with us' Matthew 1:23. 'For in Christ all the fulness of the deity lives in bodily form' Colossians 2:9. In the last book of the bible, Revelation, we read the warning: 'I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.' And that is exactly what Mormons and JWs have tried to do.

I don't generally voice my judgment on any person's character but in a serious situation where there are people reading these posts of confusion, I feel the record needs to be put straight. Three person who grew up with Joseph Smith (founder of the Latter Day saints -Mormons) from the age of 10 through to his mid twenties and beyond, all agreed he was a notorious liar. That he was notorious for his vulgar speech and unspeakable lewdness. Smith by chance bumped in to an unfrocked Baptist minister (That is one who had been dismissed from their ministry) by the name of Sidney Rigdon. It was Rigdon's original idea that there should be writings that go beyond what the Bible covered. In Smith, Rigdon found a willing collaborator and the end result was the 'Book of Mormon'.

The story goes that on September 21st 1823 Smith had an angel visit him by the name of Morini, who revealed to him that in AD 420 several golden plates had been secretly hidden in the hill of Cumorah, near Palmyra, NY. On these plates was the history of the Nephites who went to America from Jerusalem in 600 BC. Smith, who had displayed early notions of occultism went to the spot and there he found as well as the golden plates, a pair of spectacles, which he named 'Urim and Thummin'. It was with these he was able to decipher and translate in to english the mystic hieroglyphics written on the golden tablets. He claimed these were 'Reformed Egyptian'.

Concerning this claim, Professor Charles Anthon, a noted linguist, made the following comment: 'A very brief investigation is all that was needed for me to see that this was a mere hoax and a very clumsy one at that'. The entire text was a mishmash of Greek, Hebrew, and all sorts of letters more or less distorted beyond recognition, undoubtedly through unskillfulness or from actual design, intermingled with sundry delineations of half-moons, stars and other natural objects. The ending looked more like a rude representation of the Mexican Zodiac.

Do I need to go on? Are you seriously telling me that intelligent people are buying in to this fraud? Wouldn't you think that something as precious and important as the Golden plates and the glasses would be kept and preserved as evidence of this miraculous find by Smith? So, where are they?

I'll go on, as I believe it is so important that readers of this topic are warned of the lies and falsehoods that Mormonism is based upon.

The true story is as follows: A Presbyterian preacher Solomon Spaulding, wrote an imaginary history of the people who inhabited America in the early days, entitled 'The Manuscript found'. Rejected for publication he left it with Patterson the printers at Pittsburgh and died two years later. Rigdon, who I referred to earlier as teaming up with Smith, whilst visiting Patterson's shop, came across the old manuscript and using it as a basis and seeing it as a short cut to fame, published it as the 'Book of Mormon'. With the help of Parley P. Pratt and Joseph Smith, they perpetrated one of the biggest religious hoaxes of the century. Such is the incredulity of how they came about the 'Book of Mormon' perhaps we should quote 'Because they received not the love of the truth, God sent them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie' 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11.

Joseph Smith, by the way, died at the hands of an infuriated mob at Carthage in 1844. His leadership was taken over by Brigham Young who was responsible for leading their immigration to Utah in order to escape the long arm of the law. He died thirty years later leaving a fortune of £400,000 (Yes, that's pounds sterling) 17 wives and 56 children. So, why should Mormonism be classed as a heresy?

It is Antichristian - It either perverts or denies all the fundamental truths of Christianity. For example: God is a man of flesh - Adam; Christ's atonement only relates to the sins of Adam; Salvation is by works and through baptism; Christ is the son of the Adam-God and Mary, not born of a virgin; The Holy Spirit is a divine fluid. Note what I have said elsewhere my concerns for those who follow the JWs doctrine on the Holy Spirit and the danger of them committing the 'Unforgivable sin' that Jesus warned about. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit; they go on to say that sin was necessary. All of these points can be substantiated from their own writings.

Finally, on the 'Book of Mormon', of the hundreds of direct quotations from the old and new testaments, they are all from the Authorised version. Although the golden plates were supposedly written twelve hundred years before King James authorised that version!

As Christians I am sure there will be scriptures from our bible leaping out at us as we read some of the tenets of the Mormon faith. I mean the golden tablets and special glasses had me stopped in my tracks immediately. Sadly, it is often a fact that when you speak to Mormons or JWs, they were never made aware of the shady history of where they are placing their faith. Speak to those from either group of followers and ask them, do they have a testimony of how their faith has changed their life about, as christianity has for millions of people around the world. I'm not talking here of a feel good factor that people feel after a hard day's work or for obeying a list of man-made rules. The God I love, obey to the best I can because I love Him, wants a voluntary love from us. He doesn't want automatons who feel they can only earn God's love by doing good works. The bible I study tells me 'Even while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us' and else where, 'What greater love has a man than he lay down his life'.

I mean no offence. Truly. I'm watching followers of Mormonism and JWs walking towards a precipice that most certainly leads to a fatal drop in to an eternity in hell. And I won't stand idly by and say nothing. Always prepared to discuss this further. God bless and Take care.

 

[mmksparbud]

I realize that is the Mormon belief, but Christians don't believe that we are all brothers and sisters. Only those of us in Christ are brothers and sisters. Men (and women) are God's creation, not children. He has only one begotten Son - Jesus. He created Adam and Eve and the rest of us are their descendants (ergo God's creation). One joins the family of God when he or she becomes a Christian.

NO!! We have all been purchased by the blood of Christ, we are all brothers and sisters by right of all being human and descendants of Adam and Eve. We join the family of God when we believe and accept His sacrifice that He already made while were yet unbelievers. We are only His adopted children, not His begotten children, there is only one of those--Christ. And He, being part human, can be called brother, God has no human in Him, that is why we are called adopted children of God.

 

[RDKatz]

So you'd agree then that Christians are LDS by definition also, right? I'm LDS.

No. We are all Children of God but we are not all Male of Female. Many are Christian but not all are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, LDS, etc. Mathematically, Christian is a Superset with Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, LDS, etc. are subsets of the Superset.

 

[David4223]

Everyone, please make sure you are not flaming any other members. Please respond to the post itself and not the poster

 

[hedrick]

Just to be clear: CF use the Nicene Creed for *orthodox* Christian. They acknowledge that there are non-Nicene Christians. They are permitted to post in the Unorthodox Theology forum, now called Controversial Theology. They consider JWs and LDS as not Christian at all. Here is the definition: "Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF." See the following thread for discussion: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/closed-major-changes-to-posting-in-this-forum.7878007/.

Given current moderation policy I don't recommend discussion of this definition here.

 

[TheBarrd]

I have posted in this thread only. I have great interest in those who would attempt to classify the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as anything other than Christian. I have asked for a valid definition of Christian. I have yet to receive one. The rules state faith in the Nicene Creed. It does not say that the Nicene Creed is true. I do not accept the Creed because the Bible states otherwise.

I do not abuse the Christian Community but I question the exclusion of Groups of people who are obviously Christian.

You said it yourself. You do not accept the Creed. That's the end of the argument.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Am I not a creation of my Earthly Father and Mother? Thus I can trance myself back to Adam and Eve.

You are a creation of your earthly parents but you are also their child. Children are creations but creations can be many things other than children. So, yes, you are a great-[however many more greats]-grandchild of Adam and Eve.

Since they came from God, I can trace myself to God. In that manner I am a child of God. Since we all trace ourselves back to God, we are His Children. Since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian, I am a son of God by your definition.

They were created by God but not born to God as His children. They were creations only. So, none of us can trace ourselves to God in terms of being His children. This is the Christian belief. By your definition, since I am Christian, I am also LDS.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

NO!! We have all been purchased by the blood of Christ, we are all brothers and sisters by right of all being human and descendants of Adam and Eve. We join the family of God when we believe and accept His sacrifice that He already made while were yet unbelievers. We are only His adopted children, not His begotten children, there is only one of those--Christ. And He, being part human, can be called brother, God has no human in Him, that is why we are called adopted children of God.

According to God's Word it is those who have received Him that become the sons of God:
John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

 

[RDKatz]

Does that mean we are all begotten sons and daughters of God...His "spirit children"?
And what about that other brother...Satan? is Satan also your brother?

We are all Children of our Heavenly Father. Jesus is unique in that He is the Physical Son of our Heavenly Father and an Earthly Mother. How this happened has not been revealed nor is it any of our business. Thus He is the only begotten Son of the Father. We distinguish this by saying that He is the only Begotten in the Flesh of the Father.

The rest gets into the Plan of Salvation which is much too huge to discuss in this forum.

We are all Children of our Heavenly Father. Every person born upon this Earth, and who will ever be born upon this Earth as well as all those who will never be born upon Earth (Being thrust out because of Rebellion) are children of our Heavenly Father.

 

[RDKatz]

Just to be clear: CF use the Nicene Creed for *orthodox* Christian. They acknowledge that there are non-Nicene Christians. They are permitted to post in the Unorthodox Theology forum, now called Controversial Theology. They consider JWs and LDS as not Christian at all. Here is the definition: "Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF." See the following thread for discussion: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/closed-major-changes-to-posting-in-this-forum.7878007/.

Given current moderation policy I don't recommend discussion of this definition here.

<<Here is the definition: "Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF>>

Thank you. Then by your definition, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christian

 

[ArmenianJohn]

We are all Children of our Heavenly Father. Jesus is unique in that He is the Physical Son of our Heavenly Father and an Earthly Mother. How this happened has not been revealed nor is it any of our business. Thus He is the only begotten Son of the Father. We distinguish this by saying that He is the only Begotten in the Flesh of the Father.

The rest gets into the Plan of Salvation which is much too huge to discuss in this forum.

We are all Children of our Heavenly Father. Every person born upon this Earth, and who will ever be born upon this Earth as well as all those who will never be born upon Earth (Being thrust out because of Rebellion) are children of our Heavenly Father.

You're just stating Mormon belief. It is different from Christian belief. The Christian belief is that we are not God's children except if we've received Him in which case we become the children of God. At no time are any of us God's birthed children in any sense.

By simply stating your mormon belief you're really not proving anything other than that you hold the mormon religion's teachings. They are not Christian teachings. If your intent is to prove that it is a Christian belief that we are God's children then you should supply Christian (i.e. not Mormon) proof for it.

 

[Hank]

I voted no.
I grew up as Jehovah Witness, learned a bit about Presbyterian and then settled for Catholic.
When I was a JW, I thought I was a Christian. When associated with Protestants I thought I was a Christian. When I became a Catholic I thought I was a Christian. The catch? It does not matter what I think, it matters what others think about me. Because when I was a JW I thought everyone else is not a true Christian, and when I was ... and so on.

Since the forum welcomes everyone, and considering religion is a hot potatoe, it is fair to separate groups to avoid needles fights.

 

[mikejduk]

NO!! We have all been purchased by the blood of Christ, we are all brothers and sisters by right of all being human and descendants of Adam and Eve. We join the family of God when we believe and accept His sacrifice that He already made while were yet unbelievers. We are only His adopted children, not His begotten children, there is only one of those--Christ. And He, being part human, can be called brother, God has no human in Him, that is why we are called adopted children of God.

To say that God has no human in Him is to completely fail in understanding the triune Godhead. Three individual personalities inextricably linked. Like The three leafed clover. Scripture tells us that Jesus laid aside His divine attributes. he is described as the precise embodiment of God Colossians 2:9. Hang on a minute . . . go back to the Genesis account of creation where it states that God made man in HIS IMAGE. Actually, in genesis 1:26 we see a perfect example of the triune God coming together; 'Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness"'

And NO, whilst I'm here . . . RDKatz, Mormons do NOT subscribe to the Christian belief that Jesus was Fully God and Fully Man. Nor do they accept the Holy Spirit as a PERSON or BEING of the God head. That is why the LDS is NOT Christian. If you're going to ignore the facts then I'm afraid there's no solution. The scary thing is, you have been warned and when you stand before God you won't be able to say you didn't know.

 

[Architeuthus]

I do not accept the Creed because the Bible states otherwise.

Given that every phrase in our version of the Creed is backed with a verse of Scripture, that's quite obviously nonsense.

And given your attacks on the Nicene Creed, I'm grateful for the rules as they stand.

 

[Hammster]

We are all born adopted children of God--Christ died for everyone, while we were yet in our sins, believer and unbeliever alike. All anyone has to do is accept it now. If you do not believe and accept Christ, you will die, but everyone has already had their price paid. Christ did not die for believers only. He purchased us with His blood, the rest is up to us.
And NO, Satan is not my brother!! He never became part human to be so called, only Christ did. He is not in my family circle!

Um, no. Believers are adopted.

 

[mikejduk]

I would love to read your file.
Had you thought of posting to your blog? Perhaps that way, you could copy and paste a few pages at a time...

I have started a blog as you suggested. Shame I can't upload the entire file. But I'll continue at a few pages at a time.

 

[RDKatz]

Given that every phrase in our version of the Creed is backed with a verse of Scripture, that's quite obviously nonsense.

And given that you seem to be here to attack Christianity, I'm grateful for the rules as they stand.

No, it is not nonsense. The concept that the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost is the nonsense. Just look at the Baptism of Jesus to see the three separate and distinct not as the Nicene Creed would portray them. Stringing together separate verses and ignoring the rest does not make for truth. I can do that and prove that Christmas Trees are evil.

I am not here to attack Christianity. I am here to discuss the issues. I asked for a simple definition of Christian and have been attacked for my belief. I have finally been given a definition (without scriptural reference) and by using that definition, I have shown that the CHurch of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints is Christian.

 

[TheBarrd]

I voted no.
I grew up as Jehovah Witness, learned a bit about Presbyterian and then settled for Catholic.
When I was a JW, I thought I was a Christian. When associated with Protestants I thought I was a Christian. When I became a Catholic I thought I was a Christian. The catch? It does not matter what I think, it matters what others think about me. Because when I was a JW I thought everyone else is not a true Christian, and when I was ... and so on.

Since the forum welcomes everyone, and considering religion is a hot potatoe, it is fair to separate groups to avoid needles fights.

That's a good attitude, Hank.

 

[Hammster]

No, it is not nonsense. The concept that the Father is the Son is the Holy Ghost is the nonsense. Just look at the Baptism of Jesus to see the three separate and distinct not as the Nicene Creed would portray them. Stringing together separate verses and ignoring the rest does not make for truth. I can do that and prove that Christmas Trees are evil.

I am not here to attack Christianity. I am here to discuss the issues. I asked for a simple definition of Christian and have been attacked for my belief. I have finally been given a definition (without scriptural reference) and by using that definition, I have shown that the CHurch of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints is Christian.

You should take time to understand Trinitarianism before you try to say it's wrong.