Germany's Catholic Church Just Took An Amazing Step For LGBT And Remarried Catholics

[pdudgeon]

No.

The issue isn't that anyone doesn't need to improve. We all do.

The issue is the focus on one particular area for improvement, largely one that affect other people and is particular problematic for the people to improve in, while ignoring the main areas focused on by Jesus and Francis.

ok, hold on a second.
There are people out there right now who honestly believe that Jesus loves them just as they are.
I'm not kidding, they really are out there, and they really do believe that they don't have to change at all, that they're just fine as they are, that all roads lead to heaven, etc, etc.

those are the people who aren't focused on any area of improvement, and they wonder why the rest of the Christians are so focused on change.
It's nothing new, this kind of thing also happened in the very early church when they went overboard on loving everyone.

As for the main areas that are focused on by Jesus, they run the gamut of human responses mainly because the people of His time were walking around in utter spiritual darkness doing their own thing, and they had been for over 300 years. It didn't get them where God wanted them to go either.

 

[ebia]

ok, hold on a second.
There are people out there right now who honestly believe that Jesus loves them just as they are.

I dare say. But they aren't participants in this conversation.

As for the main areas that are focused on by Jesus, they run the gamut of human responses...

There's a huge focus on greed and selfishness verses self giving and giving of ones wealth, and comparatively little on sex. If that weren't clear enough I pointed to Evangelli Gaudium.

 

[stray bullet]

That's a different aspect to how you started the train of thought.

No ebia, I have been consistent. I have no idea what you are trying to say anymore.

Yes, gluttony, self-focus and consumerism are more incideous - that makes them more important, not less important, to address.
Nobody's talking about one-off mistakes

No ebia, ignoring people whose actions are PUBLIC, ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE EVIL, in DEFIANCE of the Church and PERSISTENT, WILLING, and KNOWINGLY done is the issue.

Saying we can employ homosexuals and adulterers because greed and consumerism is more important is not an argument. In many cases the Church does attempt to address such excesses. These two sins are black and white. You cannot say you can hire people that engage in absolute evil publicly in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because someone else might be greedy.

 

[pdudgeon]

I dare say. But they aren't participants in this conversation.

There's a huge focus on greed and selfishness verses self giving and giving of ones wealth, and comparatively little on sex. If that weren't clear enough I pointed to Evangelli Gaudium.

but in the NT there is also a focus on the family, on obedience and honoring God and what that means, on obeying the rabbis and priests (but not doing what they did or following their examples), in honest work, etc, etc. Every day things, but also spiritual things, and enemies, and what was coming down the road.
Basically if they got all that stuff right, then the sexual relations would fall into place by themselves.

So it's not that sexual relations weren't important, but that they hinged on the relationships and respect people had for God and for each other. Get the relationships and respect right and everything else falls into place.

 

[ebia]

Saying we can employ homosexuals and adulterers because greed and consumerism is more important is not an argument. In many cases the Church does attempt to address such excesses. These two sins are black and white. You cannot say you can hire people that engage in absolute evil publicly in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because someone else might be greedy.

Everybody does something that is in defiance of the church persistently, willingly and knowingly.

 

[stray bullet]

Everybody does something that is in defiance of the church persistently, willingly and knowingly.

No ebia, not really.

 

[ebia]

but in the NT there is also a focus on the family,

Very little, despite what many christians make out.

on obedience and honoring God and what that means, on obeying the rabbis and priests (but not doing what they did or following their examples), in honest work, etc, etc. Every day things, but also spiritual things, and enemies, and what was coming down the road.

Absolutely. So why not focus on the ones the Pope says to focus on?

Basically if they got all that stuff right, then the sexual relations would fall into place by themselves.

So it's not that sexual relations weren't important, but that they hinged on the relationships and respect people had for God and for each other. Get the relationships and respect right and everything else falls into place.

you're making my case for me.

 

[ebia]

No ebia, not really.

Yes, really.

Many, of course, deny it, often by denying it is a sin.

 

[stray bullet]

Yes, really.

Many, of course, deny it, often by denying it is a sin.

You aren't making a point ebia. You are playing the GT game of attrition - keep posting instead of making a point.

You cannot say you can hire people that engage in absolute evil publicly in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because someone else might be whatever.

 

[pdudgeon]

Everybody does something that is in defiance of the church persistently, willingly and knowingly.

and there are 3 responses;
1. they don't care.
2. they think the church should change to accommodate them because change is too hard, and Jesus loves everybody anyway.
3. they know that it is possible to change, they want to change, and they work on it daily and sometimes hourly.

 

[ebia]

You aren't making a point ebia. You are playing the GT game of attrition - keep posting instead of making a point.

You cannot say you can hire people that engage in absolute evil publicly in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because someone else might be whatever.

There is a point, even if it's either going over your head and/or denying it.

Everyone the church employs engages in some evil, publically,...

The church does employ such people. Therefore it can.

 

[ebia]

and there are 3 responses;
1. they don't care.
2. they think the church should change to accommodate them because change is too hard, and Jesus loves everybody anyway.
3. they know that it is possible to change, they want to change, and they work on it daily and sometimes hourly.

0. They convince themselves it isn't a sin.

And everyone falls into each of those categories over something, and a different category over something else.

 

[pdudgeon]

Very little, despite what many christians make out.


Absolutely. So why not focus on the ones the Pope says to focus on?


you're making my case for me.

lol no i'm not. i'm not ignoring the importance of anything. what i'm saying is that rather than focusing on the individual problem behaviors we need to start correcting wrong attitudes and actions by getting down to the root causes. it does no good to complain about the greenery of a weed and lop off it's top if you don't deal with the root of the problem.

 

[stray bullet]

There is a point, even if it's either going over your head and/or denying it.

Everyone the church employs engages in some evil, publically,...

The church does employ such people. Therefore it can.

That is not even remotely the point.

Your point is that it is okay to hire people that engage in absolute evil publicly in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because someone else might sin.

We are all sinners, but those are obvious, absolutely, without question sins that are always evil and in their instances open and public.

 

[ebia]

That is not even remotely the point.

Your point is that it is okay to hire people that engage in absolute evil publicly in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because someone else might sin.

No

My point is that it's possible to hire people that engage in sin in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because it already does, in the form of every employee.

 

[ebia]

lol no i'm not. i'm not ignoring the importance of anything. what i'm saying is that rather than focusing on the individual problem behaviors we need to start correcting wrong attitudes and actions by getting down to the root causes. it does no good to complain about the greenery of a weed and lop off it's top if you don't deal with the root of the problem.

As you've just said, as Romans 1 says, as Evangelli Gaudium says, as the Gospels say, these sins are NOT the root of the problem but symptoms m

 

[pdudgeon]

No

My point is that it's possible to hire people that engage in sin in defiance of the church persistently, willing, and knowingly because it already does, in the form of every employee.

so are you saying that the church should be taking the broad, easy road that leads to destruction when they consider whom to hire?

 

[pdudgeon]

As you've just said, as Romans 1 says, as Evangelli Gaudium says, as the Gospels say, these sins are NOT the root of the problem but symptoms m

well it's nice to know that i'm in such elevated company, but unless we do something about it and stop hiring those who couldn't care a fig, nothing will change.

 

[SolomonVII]

Germany is not even contradicting the spirit of the faith in these acts. The open door policy is still very much a part of the spirit of the Church.


"Germany can make this decision on their own. They aren't contradicting the faith so much as the spirit of the faith."

 

[ebia]

so are you saying that the church should be taking the broad, easy road that leads to destruction when they consider whom to hire?

What's the purpose behind the decision? I'd say to provide the best possible teaching through the best possible teachers. To that end, given that there are no perfect teachers you want the best overall strength of character (balanced against the best possible quality of teaching skill as well, of course).

There are no perfectly virtuous people. You want the most virtuous you can get. Putting the focus on a couple of sexual issues doesnt do that.