Are you prejudice towards a certain Christian group?

[mrhappy3]

treasures in heaven ??????

I get all I need from Jesus !

 

[Frogster]

I agree, that like Paul, even if someone is preaching the true gospel even with a wrong motive, why worry about it? I am learning that truth. Just proclaim Jesus as Lord and obedience to the truth.

Well..I mean, Paul also spoke against gospel peddlers, 2 Cor 1:17, and in 1 Tim 6:5. Besides, those in Phil, were not trying to get money, maybe they had been jealous of Paul or something like that, 2 different things.

In 2 Cor 6:3, Paul said he put no stumbling block before his ministry, he cared about how he presented things, unlike soom foolish people today out there in ministry life..

 

[Andrea411]

errrrr...calvinists that are so angry make me crazy... fundies and KJVO... LOL. I wouldn't call it prejudice except that I have a bit of a stereotyping of these groups...

I'm not real hard line about it ... LOL but its there.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well..I mean, Paul also spoke against gospel peddlers, 2 Cor 1:17, and in 1 Tim 6:5. Besides, those in Phil, were not trying to get money, maybe they had been jealous of Paul or something like that, 2 different things.

In 2 Cor 6:3, Paul said he put no stumbling block before his ministry, he cared about how he presented things, unlike soom foolish people today out there in ministry life..

Yet he also said as long as Christ is preached it didn't matter to him. If people waver from the message of free grace, then thats when the issue should arise, not lets have a rich guy hunt because he makes money. As long as the message is salvation through faith by grace without works, it shouldnt bother you if they make money.

Some people get offended at anything, so should we walk around on egg shells to avoid not upsetting the few? There are people who dont believe in salvation by grace. There are others thst think a person must wear a suit and tie/formal dress. Others dont believe a christian should have tattoos. Etc the list is never ending.

Just preach the true gospel and let God sort out the tares from the wheat.

 

[geetrue]

Son of Dr Stanely I presume?

 

[jiminpa]

My issue is that people around the world do not have clean water or healthcare, food and the ability to sustain themselves and their families. Aids is rampant in Africa and the child mortality rate is high.

How can we/they say that they are following Christ when Christ Himself said the two most important commandments are love your God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Not having money problems and the ability to live comfortably is one thing, but how many cars, houses, planes, clothes can someone have?

Why should one person have access and one person loose their children to disease? Excess. I don't believe that Jesus wants it this way. He loves ALL His children equally.

/rant :o

How many starving children could you have fed with the money you wasted on your computer, and how many could you feed on an ongoing basis with the money you spend on an ISP? If we are going to judge someone else's excess, we have to look in the mirror first.

 

[Andrea411]

I just can't take the excess of it all. A preacher worth 40 million with private planes. Just is too much for me.

I have to agree... bugs me too. I know the Lord gives to many and its no sin to be rich but sometimes it seems obscene... especially when they are pastors and made their money through church related activities.

 

[gideons300]

Well..I mean, Paul also spoke against gospel peddlers, 2 Cor 1:17, and in 1 Tim 6:5. Besides, those in Phil, were not trying to get money, maybe they had been jealous of Paul or something like that, 2 different things.

In 2 Cor 6:3, Paul said he put no stumbling block before his ministry, he cared about how he presented things, unlike soom foolish people today out there in ministry life..

Frog, I know you and I often see things differently, but on this subject, you are spot on. There are those trying to make it ok to own Lear jets, five houses...extravagant ones, make millions off the gospel, and think they are fine...even godly in doing so. But the word tells us that they are making merchandise of the sheep, shearing and fleecing them. They will be getting their reward now, while the poor will get theirs in the resurrection.

How do we try to justify a man of God living like that when they mind earthly things? Can we even imagine Paul or Peter doing so, living high on the hog while their converts struggle to put food on the table? I certainly cannot. Jesus himself had no place to lay His head, yet he had true riches.

Are not ministers supposed to lead by example as to what is important and what is not? These have tried to teach in so many words that gain is godliness and we are warned to run far from these who teach...and live sumptuously.

Paul exhorted us to follow him just as he followed Christ. He worked by day to preach by night so that he could offer people truth free of charge. May God give us real men of God that live what they preach. It is tough to believe the words of a "man of God" whose life testifies that his treasure is here, and that the world really does satisfy.

People will say "Yes, but look at all the good that they are doing." Really? What results from such converts except that they learn a twisted gospel with just enough truth to seem like Christianity, and then they become just like those they hold in admiration,

The bottom line is it is not real Christianity at all. Is Jesus really preached? Not the Jesus I know. The scriptures are clear on materialism and covetousness, but some simply do not want to hear it. Is it any wonder many have fallen into a ditch?

But the true church is arising and we will walk in truth in word AND deep, for the two are inseparable. Thank you for being firm on this subject. Many need to hear it.

Blessings, to you.

Gids

 

[mrhappy3]

Amen x

 

[gideons300]

Yet he also said as long as Christ is preached it didn't matter to him. If people waver from the message of free grace, then thats when the issue should arise, not lets have a rich guy hunt because he makes money. As long as the message is salvation through faith by grace without works, it shouldnt bother you if they make money.

Some people get offended at anything, so should we walk around on egg shells to avoid not upsetting the few? There are people who dont believe in salvation by grace. There are others thst think a person must wear a suit and tie/formal dress. Others dont believe a christian should have tattoos. Etc the list is never ending.

Just preach the true gospel and let God sort out the tares from the wheat.

And is not the true gospel to love not the world, neither the things in the world? Is not the love of money the root of all evil? Will there not be those in the last days supposing that gain is godliness? And what are we counselled to do in such a case? Run.

The gospel is not just forgiveness. It is repentance from self gratification, living lives of simplicity and humility. We brought nothing into this world asnd can take nothing out. We are therefore told to be content with food and clothing.... not lear jets and millions in offshgore accounts.

Is it any wonder the world sees us as hypocritres? These who represent Christ live lives that testify to their avarice, and it is not the gospel at all.

I urge all to simply open up your Bibles and list all the scriptures that have to do with the dangers of excess in materialism. It is not difficult to understand what is being said. Those who would try to make it ok by one salutation whereby he prays for another to prosper and be in health are reaching for straws, but their lives reveal where their treasure really is.

The world will pay attention to us when our lives match the gospel we preach. When there is a gap....and a huge one, they simply shake their heads and marvel at the hypocrisy of these preachers, and the gullability of those who follow them. Not exactly a formula for winning souls. What you end up with is people wanting what the preacher has, and they end up two times the sons of hell these men are.

If Jesus were here on earth, He would be fashioning a whip. Far too much of Christianity has made it a den of thieves. Are we not told that they who would be rich fall into a snare...a trap for the soul and that to teach others it is not only ok, but admirable to believe God for "stuff" is highly commendable.

Oh, that we would see that these men are preaching by their lives far more than their words, and they what their lives preach is self gratification. It is NOT the gospel by any stretch of the imagination.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well..I mean, Paul also spoke against gospel peddlers, 2 Cor 1:17, and in 1 Tim 6:5. Besides, those in Phil, were not trying to get money, maybe they had been jealous of Paul or something like that, 2 different things.

In 2 Cor 6:3, Paul said he put no stumbling block before his ministry, he cared about how he presented things, unlike soom foolish people today out there in ministry life..

Frog, I know you and I often see things differently, but on this subject, you are spot on. There are those trying to make it ok to own Lear jets, five houses...extravagant ones, make millions off the gospel, and think they are fine...even godly in doing so. But the word tells us that they are making merchandise of the sheep, shearing and fleecing them. They will be getting their reward now, while the poor will get theirs in the resurrection.

How do we try to justify a man of God living like that when they mind earthly things? Can we even imagine Paul or Peter doing so, living high on the hog while their converts struggle to put food on the table? I certainly cannot. Jesus himself had no place to lay His head, yet he had true riches.

Are not ministers supposed to lead by example as to what is important and what is not? These have tried to teach in so many words that gain is godliness and we are warned to run far from these who teach...and live sumptuously.

Paul exhorted us to follow him just as he followed Christ. He worked by day to preach by night so that he could offer people truth free of charge. May God give us real men of God that live what they preach. It is tough to believe the words of a "man of God" whose life testifies that his treasure is here, and that the world really does satisfy.

People will say "Yes, but look at all the good that they are doing." Really? What results from such converts except that they learn a twisted gospel with just enough truth to seem like Christianity, and then they become just like those they hold in admiration,

The bottom line is it is not real Christianity at all. Is Jesus really preached? Not the Jesus I know. The scriptures are clear on materialism and covetousness, but some simply do not want to hear it. Is it any wonder many have fallen into a ditch?

But the true church is arising and we will walk in truth in word AND deep, for the two are inseparable. Thank you for being firm on this subject. Many need to hear it.

Blessings, to you.

Gids

I am not excusing the extravagance of those who make truckloads of money and spend it on fancy rides, jets, mansions, etc. What I am saying is this.

Paul excused those who preached with evil desires. Why? Because they were preaching the true gospel! It didn't matter to him that they had evil in their hearts when they did it. Why? Because God's word, whether from an evil intentioned man or a stupid donkey, is God's word and it will accomplish it's purpose.

But then Paul vehemently rejected and denounced the Galatian preachers. Why? Because they preached a false gospel. It's the message that is important, more so than the lifestyle of those who preach it. Sure they both have significance, but if the Apostle Paul, the only man in the New Testament writings to call down a curse on false teachers, could overlook the evil intentions of Philippian preachers, then surely we can do the same today. As long as they teach and preach the true gospel we should amen that, just as Paul did.

So sure, maybe they shouldn't live such extravagant lifestyles. Sure, we should throw stumbling blocks in front of other believers, but someone is going to be offended by almost any message you preach, especially the true one. If you are unwilling to offend someone (put a stumbling block in front of them), then preaching the gospel is not for you.

 

[Andrea411]

I am not excusing the extravagance of those who make truckloads of money and spend it on fancy rides, jets, mansions, etc. What I am saying is this.

Paul excused those who preached with evil desires. Why? Because they were preaching the true gospel! It didn't matter to him that they had evil in their hearts when they did it. Why? Because God's word, whether from an evil intentioned man or a stupid donkey, is God's word and it will accomplish it's purpose.

But then Paul vehemently rejected and denounced the Galatian preachers. Why? Because they preached a false gospel. It's the message that is important, more so than the lifestyle of those who preach it. Sure they both have significance, but if the Apostle Paul, the only man in the New Testament writings to call down a curse on false teachers, could overlook the evil intentions of Philippian preachers, then surely we can do the same today. As long as they teach and preach the true gospel we should amen that, just as Paul did.

So sure, maybe they shouldn't live such extravagant lifestyles. Sure, we should throw stumbling blocks in front of other believers, but someone is going to be offended by almost any message you preach, especially the true one. If you are unwilling to offend someone (put a stumbling block in front of them), then preaching the gospel is not for you.

Yes, where I am divided on the issue is - ministries actually take truck loads of money to run. Air time is expensive, if the preachers are poor, what does that say about our gospel. Does God indeed provide? The proof is that most Christian countries become more wealthy, as a whole. Even though the gospel has always gone out and was first excepted by the poorest and most neglected people in every society.

Christianity bc it helps the poor, offers a way out of poverty, sickness, disease, addiction and brings out the best in man. Whole societies change. Historically Christianity has been the best thing to happen to the poor. We then watch as Christianity is purged from some countries and they return to the dark ages....

I still have a problem with 15,000$ per night hotels and 5-6 jets but I don't like to make an issue of it bc the infighting brings discord. We have no choice but to allow those to bear their own conscience before the Lord.

It still bugs me...

God bless, andrea

 

[hislegacy]

I'm pointing this out for two reasons:

1. There are more than enough people here that are more than Happy to point out a preachers wealth. (Only certain ones) How much they make, how much they charge for a conference, the clothes they wear. Etc, Etc.

Even like the case of Joel Osteen, who takes no salary from their church, they are quick to attempt to discredit and nullify their ministry because of wealth. Most will say out of the other side of their mouth that money means nothing to them, but that is negated by the shear volume of posts they do on money.

couple that with:

2. They are selective in who is called out for their wealth. If the person is 'Prosperity" then they are spoke of as taking from the poor (trying to scrape their pennies together), even though they are not taking a salary.

BUT - preachers doing the EXACT same thing, making millions, not only are they not spoken of, they are not even known.

Why is that.

EXAMPLE

Billy Graham (love him to pieces)

The first multimillionare televangelist. Owns and entire mountain side estate, has made more money that most can even conceive. Yet no one speaks of his wealth - why? He is making millions off of the Gospel.

Top 11 churches in the US:

#1 Lakewood Church Houston, TX Joel Osteen 43,500
#2 North Point Ministries Alpharetta, GA Andy Stanley 30,629
#3 Willow Creek South Barrington, Bill Hybels 25,743
#4 NewSpring Church Anderson, SC Perry Noble 23,055
#5 Church of the Highlands Birmingham, AL Chris Hodges 22,184
#6 Saddleback Church Lake Forest, CA Rick Warren 22,055
#7 Southeast Christian Louisville, KY Dave Stone 21,764
#8 Gateway Church Southlake, TX Robert Morris 21,403
#9 Central Christian Las Vegas, NV Jud Wilhite 21,055
#10 Phoenix First AoG Phoenix, AZ Luke Barnett 21,000
#11 Second Baptist Church Houston, TX Ed Young Sr. 20,656

Each one of these are mega churches with the pastors worth tens of millions of dollars, yet only two are ever spoken of. and I had to ask - why?

Now I don't follow any of these people and know little to nothing about them, so I can't say yeah or nay about them. In fact if it were not for several posters her, who have no interest in money, always bringing them up, I'd still not know a whole lot about them.

The posters who kept bringing them up piqued my curiosity and that is what provoked the thread.

Looks like prejudice to me, but I could be wrong.




If I had no interest in a matter - like how good Manchester United FC is and said so, but talked about how bad Manchester United was, and continuously brought them up in thread after thread - you really couldn't say that I had no interest in the subject.

just saying

 

[mrhappy3]

Manchester United are most despised club in England- they flaunt there wealth-the product is normally very good-but nobody likes a show off.

We don't know these guys or ministries.

Who are we to judge?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

How many starving children could you have fed with the money you wasted on your computer, and how many could you feed on an ongoing basis with the money you spend on an ISP? If we are going to judge someone else's excess, we have to look in the mirror first.

I'll ponder it all night.........

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm not entirely sure comparing someone buying a computer with another buying a JET is the right thing to do. Most people need computers for work or school etc, no one needs a private jet. That is a bit overboard to make such a comparison.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

How many starving children could you have fed with the money you wasted on your computer, and how many could you feed on an ongoing basis with the money you spend on an ISP? If we are going to judge someone else's excess, we have to look in the mirror first.

Yeah, I see your point. Not.

 

[gideons300]

I am not excusing the extravagance of those who make truckloads of money and spend it on fancy rides, jets, mansions, etc. What I am saying is this.

Paul excused those who preached with evil desires. Why? Because they were preaching the true gospel! It didn't matter to him that they had evil in their hearts when they did it. Why? Because God's word, whether from an evil intentioned man or a stupid donkey, is God's word and it will accomplish it's purpose.

But then Paul vehemently rejected and denounced the Galatian preachers. Why? Because they preached a false gospel. It's the message that is important, more so than the lifestyle of those who preach it. Sure they both have significance, but if the Apostle Paul, the only man in the New Testament writings to call down a curse on false teachers, could overlook the evil intentions of Philippian preachers, then surely we can do the same today. As long as they teach and preach the true gospel we should amen that, just as Paul did.

So sure, maybe they shouldn't live such extravagant lifestyles. Sure, we should throw stumbling blocks in front of other believers, but someone is going to be offended by almost any message you preach, especially the true one. If you are unwilling to offend someone (put a stumbling block in front of them), then preaching the gospel is not for you.

There is a huge difference between preaching with evil desires (i.e. for Paul to be discredited) and preaching and living a non-Christian lifestyle while being an example to the flock.

If we are able to know them by their fruits, then the conclusion we must come to is that they are not rooted in Christ, but self gratification in the name of the Lord. BIG difference.

Granted, some do not preach the prosperity gospel, but if they live it, is there really a great difference? Our lives display what we believe. A man whose treasure is truly in heaven will live that way. The man whose treasure is here on earth will also display it by how he lives and where he places his values, amen? You would think that if Christ is preached none the less, it is still good, but think about it. How many in the world avoid the church like a plague because of the excesses these men wallow in. Those saved have to eventually wade through the stumbling block of false assumptions and those who hear and see the gap between the message and the lifestyle think Christianity is hypocrisy central. Either way harm is done.

What are we told about those who draw near Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him? What does the Bible say about those who would be rich? They piece themselves through with many sorrows.... and lead others to do the same. That is not love. That is selfish ambition. Oh, they may use catch words like grace and faith ad love, but the bottom line is still the bottom line.

I was reading the other day in the prophets about those who preach or prophesy for pay. God is not amused, and sadly, lest they find repentance, they will find that out very clearly.

Will the world be offended by a minister who lays down his life for his flock? Tough to call such a one a hypocrite. We must live what we say we believe. If not, it is nothng but lip service. Are bishops not to be pue in lifestyle or stay out of the ministr? That is how far we have strayed from simple biblical Christianity, and to offer excuses as to why it is no big deal will not profit any. it will however hurt many, and love does not do that, does it.

We are told that if a brother or sister comes to you in eed and we say "God bless you be warmed and filled, and yet do nothing for them, then how dwells the love of God in them? The answer is...it does not.


Blessings,

Gids

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What you say is true gideon. I agree. What Im saying is God used a dumb donkey to speak the truth. He used evil intentioned Philippians. He can use a money hungry celebrity too. Their outcome is between them and God, but their message if centered on Christ can STILL get souls saved... So lets not condemn their message if it is the truth. Really we shouldnt even condemn them either, but a warning is allowed I believe.

 

[gideons300]

Manchester United are most despised club in England- they flaunt there wealth-the product is normally very good-but nobody likes a show off.

We don't know these guys or ministries.

Who are we to judge?

Who are we? We are men and women of God filled with wisdom and truth from our God... that is who we are. Much has been misunderstood about "judging". Are we not told to not judge those that are outside the family of God, but what about those inside? We are to examine them and their fruits and react accordingly.

That is scripture, not just my opinion. If we are to have no fellowship with blatant sinners inside the church, how exactly do we do that without judging? By judging, I do not mean pronouncing sentence. I mean examining men's words, men's fruits and if there is error, we are to expose, confront in humility and love and if there is no repentance, we are to avoid them, so that shame will bring them back into the fold, amen? That protects the integrity of the church and as well, gives men caught in the snare of the devil a wake up call to force a choice, for you cannot remain a Christian wile walking in overt rebellion and darkness.

The problem we face in the modern church is that when the scriptures were written, holiness unto the Lord was the norm and there were simply a few in gross error. They believed a man could walk as a living sacrifice and that God thought it quite reasonable.

Unfortunately, it is not so today, is it. We, as a whole, do not even believe walking in purity is truly even possible, so naturally we shy away from judging, for we know our own heart and actions will not stand up to the same scrutiny. Thank God, that is all about to change. We are about to re-discover the truth of what being without spot or wrinkle really means. It will be glorious.

Love ya Hap

Gids