Macho Married Men

[Lollerskates]

Try it again. Let's see if we can do better this time.

I don't remember the thread in question. I'm quite sure I didn't report it, though.

Im scared lol...

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm really curious now to know what your previous thread was all about. It must've been a doozy.

After thinking some more, I guess what really bothers me is the casual implications that I share whatever attitude towards my wife that the person making the comment/joke is displaying. When single coworkers talk this way, it really doesn't bother me at all. I don't even mind if the married one's speak frankly about when they were single... or if they feel the need to speak plainly about some marriage issue they're having. I understand that when guys try to relate to one another joking is often the way they go about it. Speaking openly about one's feelings isn't "manly" in of itself...so the joke gets told in hopes that the teller isn't "alone" in his situation.

Perhaps I take it too personally. It's not like I have to point out to the other posters here that I'm an atheist, but that word means almost nothing in defining who I am. What I'm getting at is I only hold one thing in my life that I would consider using the word "sacred" to describe...and that's the marriage vow I gave to my wife. No other words I've spoken could ever mean more to me. I don't want to draw a poor comparison, but if the christians here could imagine a workplace attitude that made light of everyone's faith in Jesus...you would probably be at odds with it. That's how I feel if anyone makes light of my marriage vow to my wife.

Maybe I just need to loosen up though.

I appreciate all the responses so far. Very insightful. Thank you.

First off, your committment to your wife and marriage is very commendable.

Secondly, if you keep hanging out with your friends and continue to say and do the right things (saying "no" to questions about hitting on other women, for example) and speaking positive about your wife and marriage, that may have some sub-conscious positive effects on your friends. Sometimes, one never knows what effect their words or actions will or can have on others.

You are in a tough position. Even though you are not a Christian, my prayers go out for you to continue to be strong and faithful in your marriage.

 

[Avniel]

I don't know I mostly work in a professional environment and I don't communicate with the people I work with more then business. However I am a first generation American and most of my friends and family are too or Jamaican immigrants. Jamaican men are very typical macho and if one is not they automatically are assumed to be homosexual. This is due to slave masters sodomizing male slaves so it has been implanted into our society that in order to be a man you have to be a "manly" man. My friends will talk about friends with benefits, girlfriends that they don't plan to be with but the woman they love they refer to her as empress. A common nickname for women is beautiful. They typically don't have those types of conversations with friends let alone people they work with, other then being stressed and looking for advice. So I can't particularly say that is what I've experienced. I mean these guys brag about their wives and women they love, not on looks but more so on personality.

 

[Inkachu]

I echo the sentiment that your wife is very blessed, Ana, and more men would do well to learn from your example!

 

[Tropical Wilds]

My husband works in a place where there are like 4 basic types of men:

1. The Chauvinist - Women exist for sex, babies, dinner, and a clean house. The relationship is more like an exchange of services (from his point of view). As in, he brings in the money, by doing so it "buys" him the above. Jokes about crappy marriages, affairs, and just general insulting of women (ogling, off-color terminology) is the rule, not the exception. Women are called either b-words, c-words, sl--s, who----, or simply "women," but said in a way like one would say a swear. Adjectives like "stupid" and "ugly" or "dumb" are routinely added. Ironically, also the group most likely to profanely hit on anything with body parts that are opposite their own. Their wives? We know they exist, but we've never seen them.

2. The Put-Upon - The wife exists to torment, but unlike The Chauvinist, he responds by martyring himself... Frequently. And loudly. His wife/girlfriend is the biggest b-word in the world, as he relates constantly in an utterly passive-aggressive manner. Off color jokes happen, but aren't the norm. More often it's the passive aggressive slam on his own wife or the marriage/wife of the person listening ("it must be so nice to have a woman that listens" or "I'd be in a good mood all the time too if my wife was practically perfect like yours is" or "of course he can go out because his wife doesn't care what he's doing. I can't breathe without my wife asking why"). Most conversations are how woeful he is or how wonderful it must be to get away from the wife and family, even if it's to do nothing but simply say they're away. Their wives are fairly regularly spotted at work, but again, not for any reason other than to purposely make life miserable for their poor husbands.

3. The Hostile Single - This dude is The Chauvinist, only with no wife or steady girlfriend. And he doesn't get why. But he's pretty sure because all women are all b-words. This is where a lot of the teens at work end up, just kind of by default.

4. The Devoted Husband/Boyfriend - This is everybody else. By default. I bet you thought I meant "devoted husband" in a good way... Maybe in real world, not my husband's work world, it would be... But since the ruling male majority is number 1, 3, and 2 (in that order), it's not so much "devoted husband" as it is "devoted husband." Dripping in sarcasm. And the men who fall into this category (guys who don't have outlooks of groups 1-3) are that way because either "too young to know better," "p-whipped," or a closeted homosexual. Because those are the only people who wouldn't make jokes at the expense of their wives or women in general. In the general rabble, these guys are like the bottom of the social food chain. If the Devoted Husband in question is a manager and has the time in so that his tenure is longer than that of most others, he's not the bottom of the food chain, just mercilessly teased about it. Not always in a nice way.

My husband is relegated to number 4 because he doesn't act like the guys in group 1-3, though in his first marriage he readily admits he was in group 2. However, now he's a Devoted Husband because "he's too young to know better," because he's "p-whipped," and because we're "newly married." We've been together for the better part of a decade.

Anyway, he's committed several cardinal sins, including referring to himself as a "we," taking time off work/leaving work early/changing his schedule to accommodate me or the kids, called out sick because I was sick and needed help at home, taken vacations with me, and he has pictures of me on his desk that he put there of his own free will (as opposed to people in group 2 who have pictures of their wives on their desks, but only because their wives put them there or had the nerve to give them a gift of a family picture with the specific instruction that it was "for work").

He gets picked on because he doesn't act like a jerk pretty regularly. The snarky "he can't go out because he has to hurry home" or, if he does go out (which is admittedly rarely), it's "oh, you don't have to call your woman first?" or "look who's pulling on his leash today!" He doesn't joke about women in the way they do, he doesn't whine about being married, he's actually really private about the absolute details of our life. The superficial he shares, funny stories, conversations, etc., but if we were to have a knock-down, drag out fight, I seriously don't think for a second he'd ever, ever let on at work. People prod him for details (little stuff, like if he's happy or if we fight, to big stuff, like trying to get him to make a statement about the frequency/quality of sex) so they can rib him more or have a "oh, Mr. Perfect doesn't have the perfect home, does he?" tidbit.

For awhile, and I think to a degree even now, a lot of the teasing stopped after I got so sick with Lyme and he was shoved into the exception pile with the other guys who had sick wives they loved. But he still gets ribbed.

9 out of 10 times, if it's appropriate to do so and somebody takes a swipe at either our marriage, me, or married life, he'll say something. Teasing about rushing home to see me, he'll admit it. Rib him for going out when he normally doesn't, he'll fire back with a "my wife wants me to go out and do stuff with friends, I just don't like leaving her home with the kids all day when I can help." So-and-so have a wife that's "acting up" and gives him a poke to commiserate? "You're on your own man, that's not what my marriage is like." The time he lets it go is for a good reason. Like when he had a business trip and his superior said "boy, I bet you'll be glad to be away from the wife and kids for a few days." He said "I'll still Skype chat with them at the hotel," and that was it... He's pushing for a job with travel (big move up in his career), and he didn't want to make it sound like he didn't like being away from me (and didn't want to travel/get the job), and he didn't want to defy the boss.

Also, I was at home packing because he asked me to come with even though very technically speaking I wasn't supposed to.

The only time he really lets stuff go and doesn't confirm, deny, correct, etc a swipe is when it comes from a woman. Most of the women he works with are happily married so they don't take swipes. The ones who do take swipes are either unhappily married, single and on the prowl, catty and looking for gossip, or a combination of the above. In those situations, anything he says in response becomes gossip fuel. He'll occasionally say something sensational to send the girls into a gossip tizzy, but that's about it.

 

[Inkachu]

Wow... CF is absolutely rife with #3's...

 

[mkgal1]

I've posted this article before, but it really does go along with your topic well, Ana.

Joe Erhmann calls this "false masculinity" and it does seem to permeate (and negatively affect) a lot of our lives (including the ones that have bought into the lie).

For years, men have been told that what makes them better people is the size of their house, the expensive car in the driveway, and the hot wife who cooks and cleans all while being a perfect mother. Thanks to Madison Ave’s slickly packaged profile of the American male, we act more like sheep and less like men — wandering around bragging about our serial sexual conquests, career accomplishments, and foretold financial success, while the best and brightest marketing minds shepherd our next identity theft from BMW to Bentley, from Cavali to Calvin Klein.

This is all part of "The Big Lie" that has plagued generations of men and established a culturally accepted definition of what Joe Ehrmann calls "false masculinity". Simply stated, it means men define their worth by the following three components: athletic achievement, sexual conquest and economic success. False masculinity has its roots in the father and son dysfunction - in which sons seek the love and approval of their fathers through some measure of performance - be it athletic or otherwise.

"Masculinity, first and foremost ought to be defined in terms of relationships," Ehrmann said. " It ought to be taught in terms of the capacity to love and to be loved. Success in life cant be measured by what you've acquired or achieved or what you own."

Joe's second criterium for building better men and establishing "authentic masculinity" is service. Men ought to be engaged in some kind of cause, some selfless, driving purpose, bigger and more meaningful than themselves.~Not Your Average Joe | Rebel Magazine

Oh! Another guy I just thought of......Lt Col Dave Grossman. Have you heard of him? Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman's Biography

If the guys you work with have a *need* to be "macho" ......maybe they ought to conform to this variety of "manliness" (the sheepdog). Grossman uses that term based on this:

The role of human “sheepdogs” is almost exactly that of their canine counterparts. Like actual sheepdogs, they live among the flock – one of them, and yet different and set apart. They protect the perimeter and vigilantly watch for evil “wolves.” Their mere presence can keep bad men turning on each other instead of on law-abiding citizens, but if they do attack, human sheepdogs are alert and ready to be aggressive. They are prepared to make a stand against those who would do others harm, but outside of times of crisis, they are gentle and trustworthy. Grossman describes human sheepdogs as individuals who have a capacity for violence but also a moral compass and a “deep love for [their] fellow citizens.” Their hardihood and bravery gives them the ability to “walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.”

Sheep find sheepdogs annoying when things are fine. For example, most people grumble about the police when they get a ticket for a minor traffic violation. But when a wolf shows up, and the police catch him, the complaining stops and people turn out to line the streets, cheer them on, and shower them with gratitude.~
Are You a Sheep or Sheepdog? Part I | The Art of Manliness

 

[mkgal1]

With TW's list of categories of the men her hubby works with........wouldn't the term that was often used here be "White Knight" (as an insult) apply to #4? The other thing that was often posted is if a guy (probably like Ana) posted something that doesn't fall into categories #1; #2; #3.....then he's "pandering to the women" in order to "get them to praise him".

 

[Lollerskates]

A man that is powerful, honorable, courageous, strong, just and righteous is good, but having these qualities only tends to make one incomplete IMO. If you have these qualities, plus compassion, patience, mercy, temperance, faithfulness, and kindness/meekness really upgrades a man into a Man. Christ, to me, was that Man: how many men today would treat a prostitute like a woman, with respect and mercy?

Since I am in mixed spiritual company, if anyone watches DBZ, Goku would be that Man, and Vegeta would be a brutish man. I think an evenly-yoked complimentary is most always needed to complete the others. *Shrug*

 

[Inkachu]

Preach, Loller!

 

[mkgal1]

A man that is powerful, honorable, courageous, strong, just and righteous is good, but having these qualities only tends to make one incomplete IMO. If you have these qualities, plus compassion, patience, mercy, temperance, faithfulness, and kindness/meekness really upgrades a man into a Man. Christ, to me, was that Man: how many men today would treat a prostitute like a woman, with respect and mercy?

I agree (that there needs to be wisdom as to *when* and *how* power and strength ought to be used. Isn't that what "meekness" actually means? Most definitely compassion; patience; mercy; temperance; faithfulness; kindness need to be included in order to be complete. I doubt that anyone would argue with that.

This was in the article about Sheepdogs (basically what you're saying)--both the canine and human versions have these traits:

Yet despite their fierceness, LGDs make loyal, gentle companions, and are especially protective of children.

According to Wikipedia, “The three qualities most sought after in LGDs [livestock guardian dogs] are trustworthiness, attentiveness, and protectiveness—trustworthy in that they do not roam off and are not aggressive with the livestock, attentive in that they are situationally aware of threats by predators, and protective in that they will attempt to drive off predators.” What’s really interesting is the different roles these social creatures can play according to their differing personalities:

I know it's possible for men to treat prostitutes as humans.....with respect and mercy (even though, like you're pointing out.....it is rare). I think that particular issue does take men with that attitude (respect/mercy/compassion) in order for there to be any change.

 

[Lollerskates]

I agree (that there needs to be wisdom as to *when* and *how* power and strength ought to be used. Isn't that what "meekness" actually means?

Yes. Actually, probably all 12 I listed and many others generally encompass/mean meekness. A lot of people think meek = weak, but usually you should be eeary of keek people, since they are usually incredibly powerful but have the wisdom to use their attributes at appropriate times. For example, a meek guy walking away from a "tough guy" who thinks he is leaving because he is weak. What the tough guy doesn't know is the meek guy is a 5th dan Shotokan expert, and could have wiped the floor with the "tough guy." He just has patience, mercy, etc. - that makes him even more powerful. I have had to save plenty of my "friends" from beatdowns they didn't know they were about to get similar to that situation.

This was in the article about Sheepdogs (basically what you're saying)--both the canine and human versions have these traits:



I know it's possible for men to treat prostitutes as humans.....with respect and mercy (even though, like you're pointing out.....it is rare). I think that particular issue does take men with that attitude (respect/mercy/compassion) in order for there to be any change.

Sheep dogs have always fascinated me in that respect. Very interesting. I like the way they firmly round up sheep in open pasture without being overly aggressive. What is really cool is that the sheep respect them, and aren't fearful of them. There is almost a mutual trust thing between the two.

I dont doubt guys can treat prostitutes like women either. Though, it is so much easier not to, especially around a bunch of macho men who could make Mother Teresa feel embarrassed for not wearing enough clothes. Machismo is contagious.

 

[mkgal1]

Yes. Actually, probably all 12 I listed and many others generally encompass/mean meekness. A lot of people think meek = weak, but usually you should be eeary of keek people, since they are usually incredibly powerful but have the wisdom to use their attributes at appropriate times. For example, a meek guy walking away from a "tough guy" who thinks he is leaving because he is weak. What the tough guy doesn't know is the meek guy is a 5th dan Shotokan expert, and could have wiped the floor with the "tough guy." He just has patience, mercy, etc. - that makes him even more powerful. I have had to save plenty of my "friends" from beatdowns they didn't know they were about to get similar to that situation.

I know. That really seems to be the common misnomer (that meek = weak). Not true at all (and you gave a good example of true "meekness").

Sheep dogs have always fascinated me in that respect. Very interesting. I like the way they firmly round up sheep in open pasture without being overly aggressive. What is really cool is that the sheep respect them, and aren't fearful of them. There is almost a mutual trust thing between the two.

Animals in general fascinate me.....but, yes, there is a lot that's really interesting about sheep/sheepdogs/wolves. Definitely it's about the dog's respect for the sheep.

I found a better article:

A sheep is someone who does what is expected of them. They just want to get by, to enjoy their lives, eat good food, have good times. Perhaps they aspire to other things, but for now, they lack the determination or means to buck the status quo. When they are threatened, they rely on the system to take care of them. They work hard, follow instructions, and produce a lot, but ultimately, their fate is in someone else's hands.

A wolf is someone who has taken their fate into their own hands. They don't play by the rules because the rules are meant to control and limit people. The wolf takes advantage of those who blindly follow directions, who live with the illusion that they will be okay if they just do what they are told. The wolf sees sheep all around and laughs because he can take whatever, whenever. Might makes right.

A sheepdog is like a wolf, except that the dog is driven by duty. Instead of limiting him, duty empowers him: duty to family, country, friends, religion, or some system of values. This duty gives the dog the strength and presence to stand its ground in the face of dangers greater that it. These people follow the rules, but they don't rely on them. They have learned to love and accept the sheep instead of seeing them as patsy's to be taken advantage of. For the most part, they let others live their lives, but when someone must step forward to lead or protect, the sheepdog has decided that it will shoulder that burden. These people ask nothing and give all they can afford to give, knowing that their example will inspire other sheep to become sheepdogs, too.Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs — Warrior Spirit

I dont doubt guys can treat prostitutes like women either. Though, it is so much easier not to, especially around a bunch of macho men who could make Mother Teresa feel embarrassed for not wearing enough clothes. Machismo is contagious.

.....and the million dollar question is........can integrity be JUST as contagious?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

With TW's list of categories of the men her hubby works with........wouldn't the term that was often used here be "White Knight" (as an insult) apply to #4? The other thing that was often posted is if a guy (probably like Ana) posted something that doesn't fall into categories #1; #2; #3.....then he's "pandering to the women" in order to "get them to praise him".

The list really just represents the type of men that he has at his work, not really all men in general. Though I've always heard of men as "white knights" in the idea that they're looking for people to save, or they have saved somebody. Nobody there is really looking to save anybody. I think the work culture is really a "fractured view of women/marriage/relationship" men, then everybody else. Lol!

 

[akmom]

Not to redirect the thread too much, but as for the wives on here, what exactly do you prefer your husbands to say in the OP's situation?

I was thinking about it, and personally, I wouldn't want him to gush about our marriage. To be perfectly honest, we have a really great marriage and have for a long time. But I kind of consider that personal, you know? It's one thing to talk about marriage on an anonymous forum. That's a fitting place to discuss marriage, brag or complain about a spouse. But in terms of what my husband shares with colleagues... honestly I'd prefer the humor. Obviously not the degrading level of humor the OP's coworkers share, but something light-hearted.

My husband once shared a conversation he had at work, in which he was sort of "gushing" about how I'd taken care of him during a recent illness. I know it was a compliment to me and came from a place of gratitude. But I feel weird having people know that. It's personal. And especially knowing that some people there are struggling with their marriages, how would it feel to hear that? I guess I just don't know that anything is gained. Now if he complained about something I did - even exaggerated - and there was a degree of real humor in it, that to me seems more appropriate to share. Maybe I'm just backwards.

 

[akmom]

I'm still a little curious about the reason for an atheist posting in a Christian marriage forum in general. I belong to other forums besides this one. I've been on forums for parents, working moms, college students, creationists, and etiquette. Each of them reflected a lot of different backgrounds and opinions. But usually everyone posting had some tie to the forum. Forums for parents were frequented by parents or prospective parents, or occasionally someone with a question involving children in their lives. That's why they sought that forum. If that forum contained a thread about bikes, we'd never see posts from a childless bike enthusiast, because he wouldn't have been in the audience to begin with.

You're married, you seem to have a good marriage, and you can probably offer a lot of input on marriage. But... you didn't arrive here seeking a marriage forum, right? You had to have signed up for Christian forums specifically before you even found the Married Couples subforum. And I know there are lots of atheists who seek Christian forums, to understand or debate some social or scientific issue with a major demographic. But marriage isn't really one of those topics. So I'm a little confused why you specifically chose a Christian marriage forum to share on. Any marriage forum is bound to have a diversity of posters, both Christian, secular and many other faiths and creeds. I see this diversity on other forums. So you wouldn't need to come here for diversity.

I'm not criticizing. I'm just really curious what prompted you here. I guess it would be like me going to a Muslim marriage forum to exchange advice. I mean, I could. I think I have a great marriage and I'm sure some of them do too, so maybe we'd benefit. But I wouldn't be getting diversity really, just a very random audience. So... it seems more like I'd do that if I was an agnostic exploring Muslim beliefs and lifestyle specifically, or if I had an agenda there. Plus, to be honest, they probably went there specifically to get advice from other Muslims, and would have joined a more general marriage forum if they wanted to read diverse opinions.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I'm still a little curious about the reason for an atheist posting in a Christian marriage forum in general. I belong to other forums besides this one. I've been on forums for parents, working moms, college students, creationists, and etiquette. Each of them reflected a lot of different backgrounds and opinions. But usually everyone posting had some tie to the forum. Forums for parents were frequented by parents or prospective parents, or occasionally someone with a question involving children in their lives. That's why they sought that forum. If that forum contained a thread about bikes, we'd never see posts from a childless bike enthusiast, because he wouldn't have been in the audience to begin with.

You're married, you seem to have a good marriage, and you can probably offer a lot of input on marriage. But... you didn't arrive here seeking a marriage forum, right? You had to have signed up for Christian forums specifically before you even found the Married Couples subforum. And I know there are lots of atheists who seek Christian forums, to understand or debate some social or scientific issue with a major demographic. But marriage isn't really one of those topics. So I'm a little confused why you specifically chose a Christian marriage forum to share on. Any marriage forum is bound to have a diversity of posters, both Christian, secular and many other faiths and creeds. I see this diversity on other forums. So you wouldn't need to come here for diversity.

I'm not criticizing. I'm just really curious what prompted you here. I guess it would be like me going to a Muslim marriage forum to exchange advice. I mean, I could. I think I have a great marriage and I'm sure some of them do too, so maybe we'd benefit. But I wouldn't be getting diversity really, just a very random audience. So... it seems more like I'd do that if I was an agnostic exploring Muslim beliefs and lifestyle specifically, or if I had an agenda there. Plus, to be honest, they probably went there specifically to get advice from other Muslims, and would have joined a more general marriage forum if they wanted to read diverse opinions.

I've always thought this was kind of a rude question which not-so-subtly implies said person doesn't belong here. This may be a Christian forum, but it is open to and encourages people of all faiths to join and participate so any non-Christians participation is not inappropriate or unexpected. Besides which, concern of marriage and faith isn't limited to just Christians and despite a difference in faith, there is a lot of commonality in values.

Having a good marriage, wanting to share about your marriage, offer advice, or brag on your spouse is not an exclusively Christian desire or mindset.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Not to redirect the thread too much, but as for the wives on here, what exactly do you prefer your husbands to say in the OP's situation?

I was thinking about it, and personally, I wouldn't want him to gush about our marriage. To be perfectly honest, we have a really great marriage and have for a long time. But I kind of consider that personal, you know? It's one thing to talk about marriage on an anonymous forum. That's a fitting place to discuss marriage, brag or complain about a spouse. But in terms of what my husband shares with colleagues... honestly I'd prefer the humor. Obviously not the degrading level of humor the OP's coworkers share, but something light-hearted.

My husband once shared a conversation he had at work, in which he was sort of "gushing" about how I'd taken care of him during a recent illness. I know it was a compliment to me and came from a place of gratitude. But I feel weird having people know that. It's personal. And especially knowing that some people there are struggling with their marriages, how would it feel to hear that? I guess I just don't know that anything is gained. Now if he complained about something I did - even exaggerated - and there was a degree of real humor in it, that to me seems more appropriate to share. Maybe I'm just backwards.

I don't mind my husband sharing that sort of stuff. Especially if it's superficial sharing like "I was really sick and my wife took good care of me" as opposed to "I was really sick and my wife sent me to bed, gave me a leg massage, cooked me my favorite soup, and let me have control of the TV all day." But even that doesn't particularly bother me.

That said, when one of his co-workers does the "my wife, the b-word" routine, I'm just as happy with "Well my wife's not a b-word." Is he "required" to say anything? No. But the fact that somebody will slam their marriage and our marriage indirectly and knowing my husband won't put up with it is really nice.

 

[Inkachu]

I didn't find the OP's responses "gushing" at all. They were honest, firm, and honorable IMHO. I can imagine my husband giving similar responses and I'd be fine with that. I'd give the same sort of responses if someone presented me with an absurd "joke" about cheating on him or hating being married or something.

 

[Hetta]

I for one am glad that Ana posts here. We have no shortage of Christian input in the married couples forum, and it's good to have a fresh voice. I also think it is good that people are getting a marital perspective from a non-Christian, because it seems that many of us don't get much of that IRL. It's also not against the rules for him to post here. So.