The saved are eternally secure

bornofGod888

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Yes, but if you give up Christ...if you reject Him, He cannot and will not force Himself on you. If He did force then He is not love and therefore He is not God because "God is love".

As long as your faith is in Christ, He will never leave you are forsaken you. If this isn't true then why does Paul plead with believers not to give up their faith????

According to their twisted theology, "god" is guilty of "forcible rape". Yes, he (their "god") allegedly "predestines" people to be his wife, against their will, and then puts his "seed" within the same, apart from their willful cooperation.

Do you know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see just one of the proponents of such heresy "test" their theology out on the streets. Yes, I'd like to see (not really...perish the thought...I'm just attempting to make a point) just one of them go out today and grab hold of a woman and "seed" (you know what I mean) her, against her will, and then claim her for his wife, without her prior consent. Should any be up to such a "test", then I'll be the first person to go and visit them in jail after they're arrested for forcible rape and preach the actual gospel message to them that they might hopefully embrace the same.
 
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SavedByGraceThruFaith

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According to their twisted theology, "god" is guilty of "forcible rape". Yes, he (their "god") allegedly "predestines" people to be his wife, against their will, and then puts his "seed" within the same, apart from their willful cooperation.

Do you know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see just one of the proponents of such heresy "test" their theology out on the streets. Yes, I'd like to see (not really...perish the thought...I'm just attempting to make a point) just one of them go out today and grab hold of a woman and "seed" (you know what I mean) her, against her will, and then claim her for his wife, without her prior consent. Should any be up to such a "test", then I'll be the first person to go and visit them in jail after they're arrested for forcible rape and preach the actual gospel message to them that they might hopefully embrace the same.

You are trying to create a straw man argument so you can argue "the other side". By simple debate 101 rules, that proves that you have no basis for your own argument.

Please use scripture and not flawed humans reasoning and analogies.
 
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bornofGod888

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You are trying to create a straw man argument so you can argue "the other side". By simple debate 101 rules, that proves that you have no basis for your own argument.

Please use scripture and not flawed humans reasoning and analogies.

I've used plenty of scripture already and you've continually ignored the same. Also, my analogy is not the least bit flawed as that is exactly what people like you preach and believe. I'd spit in the face of your rapist "god" if he stood before me right now. Fortunately, no such "god" exists, so my saliva shall remain intact.
 
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SavedByGraceThruFaith

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I've used plenty of scripture already and you've continually ignored the same. Also, my analogy is not the least bit flawed as that is exactly what people like you preach and believe. I'd spit in the face of your rapist "god" if he stood before me right now. Fortunately, no such "god" exists, so my saliva shall remain intact.

You have not even addresses the scripture in this topic's root post. And what you gave has not be shown to disprove OSAS.

You are using a straw man to argue against.

So, by simple debate 101 rules, I have defeated your theory hands down.
 
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bornofGod888

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You have not even addresses the scripture in this topic's root post. And what you gave has not be shown to disprove OSAS.

You are using a straw man to argue against.

So, by simple debate 101 rules, I have defeated your theory hands down.

You do realize that bearing false witness is a sin, don't you? As such, please refrain from doing the same in relation to me. Contrary to your false witness, I have addressed your Romans citations by showing how you've regularly dismissed other passages in Romans which clearly refute your error. Anyone with two eyes and even a hint of honesty can easily see and recognize the same. As such, burn your own straw man, okay?
 
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SavedByGraceThruFaith

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You do realize that bearing false witness is a sin, don't you? As such, please refrain from doing the same in relation to me. Contrary to your false witness, I have addressed your Romans citations by showing how you've regularly dismissed other passages in Romans which clearly refute your error. Anyone with two eyes and even a hint of honesty can easily see and recognize the same. As such, burn your own straw man, okay?

Another debate 101 move. Again you have no position to argue from.

You are correct, bearing false witness is a sin. But it seems you are the one doing it.
 
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bornofGod888

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Another debate 101 move. Again you have no position to argue from.

You are correct, bearing false witness is a sin. But it seems you are the one doing it.

Once more, you seek to project your own sin unto me. Again, anyone with two eyes and even a hint of honesty can see that you're bearing false witness against me. Keep it up and I'll see to it that the Moderators help you to overcome such a sin.
 
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SavedByGraceThruFaith

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Once more, you seek to project your own sin unto me. Again, anyone with two eyes and even a hint of honesty can see that you're bearing false witness against me. Keep it up and I'll see to it that the Moderators help you to overcome such a sin.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
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bornofGod888

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Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And?

Read the next verse:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10

Our good works didn't save us, but those who are truly saved by Christ and indwelt with the Holy Spirit will walk in good works throughout the remainder of their lives. You know, those who truly abide in the Vine and all that. After all, Jesus did say that a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit, didn't He? Well, tell me, then, how a Christian can truly be abiding in Christ, the good Vine, and then produce bad fruit? Good luck with that one...
 
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SavedByGraceThruFaith

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And?

Read the next verse:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10

Our good works didn't save us, but those who are truly saved by Christ and indwelt with the Holy Spirit will walk in good works throughout the remainder of their lives. You know, those who truly abide in the Vine and all that. After all, Jesus did say that a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit, didn't He? Well, tell me, then, how a Christian can truly be abiding in Christ, the good Vine, and then produce bad fruit? Good luck with that one...

"created in Christ Jesus" means already saved for ever. So that proves OSAS is true again. "unto good works" but it says "should" not "must" walk in.

I never said that the saved should not do good works, but you have said we are not saved by them, as I have already said.

Many try to use works for salvation, either by claiming that it is needed before or after salvation. Either way that is works for salvation.
 
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Hentenza

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If, like the OP, you're going to cherry-pick "proof texts" from Paul's epistle to the Romans (and from Isaiah), then why not pick "proof texts" such as these:

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." - Romans 6:17-18

I am not cherry picking and you are using the typical attack the poster tactic to not answer the question. Again, who is the man who's LAWLESS deeds are forgiven and who's sin is covered? Who is the man who's sin the Lord will not take into account?

With regards to the verse you posted, Paul tells us immediately after:

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what [o]benefit were you then [p]deriving [q]from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you [r]derive your [s]benefit, [t]resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Jesus paid for our sins. ALL OF THEM. He died for us WHILE we are STILL sinners. Believers have been JUSTIFIED by His blood. I will posit to you that ALL believers with saving faith still sin BUT we have an advocate in heaven that hears our confession. However, justification is a ONE TIME event from which a new creation emerges. Justified today, not justified tomorrow, justified today, not justified tomorrow, etc. etc. would be the act of a God that changes His mind but God does not change His mind nor is He contingent on YOUR works to remain saved.



Born again Christians ought not be "servants of sin" any longer.

And those with saving faith are NOT servants of sin BUT they STILL sin. Do you sin?



In fact, they ought to be "servants of righteousness". If they're not, well...

"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." - I John 2:28-3:10

And yet, John tells us in the first chapter of the same epistle:

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

How do you reconcile John's own words with YOUR interpretation of the passages of John that you posted?

How do you reconcile YOUR interpretation of the passages you posted based on the beginning of chapter two of the same epistle?


My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Do you know what propitiation means? Do you know what it means that Jesus Himself is the propitiation for our sins?

My righteous works, which are born out of me abiding in the Vine of Christ, are anything but "filthy rags", so please spare us any more of your cherry-picked, out of context alleged "proof texts". Thank you.

Boast much?

Eph. 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The believer is CREATED in Christ for good works and the works that we are to do have been prepared beforehand for us to do. This means that we are to do these works FROM salvation not FOR salvation since God is the creator of these works that we have to do. I will posit to you that all believers with saving faith do these works out of their love for Christ. But no all do the same works or even the save quantity of works. That is up to God, not up to you.
 
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Hentenza

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No to both questions.

What are you hoping to prove by your questions?

That your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:4 is wrong. If God wanted all to be saved then all would be saved but not all will be saved. God is not wrong so this verse cannot be interpreted absolutely otherwise you have no choice but to believe that all men will be saved. See the conundrum?
 
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Lion King

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That your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:4 is wrong. If God wanted all to be saved then all would be saved but not all will be saved. God is not wrong so this verse cannot be interpreted absolutely otherwise you have no choice but to believe that all men will be saved. See the conundrum?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Is it God's will that none should perish, but all should come to repentance?


O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Matthew 23:37

Tell me, did God desire Israel to come under His wings?


For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication: 1 Thessalonians 4:3

It's God's will that Christians should abstain from all sexual immorality, does this mean that no Christian will ever commit fornication?
 
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Hentenza

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The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Is it God's will that none should perish, but all should come to repentance?

Do all men come to repentance?


O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Matthew 23:37

Tell me, did God desire Israel to come under His wings?

Yes, and they will. But are you equating the desire to save all men to God's saving of the remnant of Israel?


For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication: 1 Thessalonians 4:3

It's God's will that Christians should abstain from all sexual immorality, does this mean that no Christian will ever commit fornication?

And this pertain to the discussion how? Is fornication not a sin from which Christians can repent as John states in 1 John 1?
 
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bornofGod888

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I am not cherry picking and you are using the typical attack the poster tactic to not answer the question.

Who's attacking you? Oh, that's right...you're the guy who reported me because I "offended" you when I correctly noted that you didn't know what you were talking about on another thread. Report me again, then. No worries. Both God and I know that you're in error and you certainly won't be reporting Him anytime soon. In fact, you'd be wise to straighten out your mixed up theology before the day comes that you have to answer directly to Him for the same. Also, unlike many, I never avoid answering questions, so please stop lying about me or I'll report you myself.

Again, who is the man who's LAWLESS deeds are forgiven and who's sin is covered? Who is the man who's sin the Lord will not take into account?

Exactly who Paul said it is:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." - Romans 4:6-8

And? How does this change anything? Again, the same Paul warned the same exact Romans later on in this very same epistle that they needed to "fear" and "take heed" lest God "cut them off", too, and they be "spared not". Now, what do you suppose that THAT means? That people are "eternally secure" without ever having to do anything but believe? Don't kid yourself. After all, you're not kidding me and you're certainly not kidding God.

With regards to the verse you posted, Paul tells us immediately after:

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what [o]benefit were you then [p]deriving [q]from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you [r]derive your [s]benefit, [t]resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Jesus paid for our sins. ALL OF THEM. He died for us WHILE we are STILL sinners. Believers have been JUSTIFIED by His blood. I will posit to you that ALL believers with saving faith still sin BUT we have an advocate in heaven that hears our confession. However, justification is a ONE TIME event from which a new creation emerges. Justified today, not justified tomorrow, justified today, not justified tomorrow, etc. etc. would be the act of a God that changes His mind but God does not change His mind nor is He contingent on YOUR works to remain saved.

Which is why Paul later warned these same Romans to "fear" and to "take heed" lest God "cut them off" or they be "spared not", right? Again, don't kid yourself. Those whom God deems righteous are those who "do righteousness" after having been born again and attached to the good Vine of Christ. Those who don't "do righteousness"? Well, we both know what John had to say about the same in his first epistle, don't we? Yes, we do...even if only one of us seems to be taking it to heart. In fact, I'll be so bold as to declare that God warns about people just like you in John's first epistle. You know, those who seek to deceive others into believing that they can continue to sin after coming to Christ. Read it for yourself. It's in I John chapter 3.

And those with saving faith are NOT servants of sin BUT they STILL sin. Do you sin?

Yes, I do still sin at times, but certainly not in the cavalier, flippant or fearless manner in which some others seem to here. Even then, God immediately strives with me to bring me to a place of genuine repentance when I do sin so that I sin no longer in that specific area. Is such foreign to you? Does your definition of repentance match the Bible's definition of the same? Definitions such as the following?

"Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter." - II Corinthians 7:9-11

And yet, John tells us in the first chapter of the same epistle:

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

How do you reconcile John's own words with YOUR interpretation of the passages of John that you posted?

How do you reconcile YOUR interpretation of the passages you posted based on the beginning of chapter two of the same epistle?

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

What's to reconcile? Nobody can say that they've never sinned and John told us exactly why he wrote these things, even as you just quoted:

That we sin not.

Now, go and do likewise.

Do you know what propitiation means? Do you know what it means that Jesus Himself is the propitiation for our sins?

Yes, I know what it means. Christ became our "mercy seat", in effect. And? Do you realize that those who sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth are going to die without mercy (Heb. 10:26-31)? So much for your allegation that Christ died for all of our sins...as if that covers future willful sins as well. It doesn't.

Boast much?

That's a funny question...especially since you just thought that you needed to teach me what "propitiation" means. Anyhow, as John wrote, "he that doeth righteous is righteous even as He is righteous", so I didn't "boast". Rather, I merely affirmed that the Word of God is true (in contrast to your error) and that Christians can and ought to be "doing righteousness" as a direct result of their truly abiding in the good Vine of Christ. Again, Jesus said that a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit, yet you spoke of "filthy rags"; pulling that verse out of its context and seeking to apply it to Christians. Anyhow, do you need help understanding what it means to abide in Christ and to sin not? It means what it says, whether you like it or not.

Eph. 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The believer is CREATED in Christ for good works and the works that we are to do have been prepared beforehand for us to do. This means that we are to do these works FROM salvation not FOR salvation since God is the creator of these works that we have to do. I will posit to you that all believers with saving faith do these works out of their love for Christ. But no all do the same works or even the save quantity of works. That is up to God, not up to you.

Again, and? My point is that God will judge us in accordance to our works, just as the Bible teaches:

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." - I Peter 1:17-21

Etc., etc., etc.
 
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Lion King

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Do all men come to repentance?

No, they don't. How does that change the fact that God desires all to come to repentance?

Yes, and they will. But are you equating the desire to save all men to God's saving of the remnant of Israel?

That doesn't change the fact that God desired all of Israel to come under His wings, but unfortunately, Israel refused.

And this pertain to the discussion how? Is fornication not a sin from which Christians can repent as John states in 1 John 1?

Yes, but it is God's desire that no Christian should commit fornication. Just because God desires it, does not mean it will always happen. God gave each and everyone of us free will, after all.
 
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rockytopva

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My feelings are that the Lambs Book of Life is express property of God the Father. He will do with it as he pleases....

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. - Exodus 32:31-33

I believe that the churches unraveled in ages....

1. Ephesus – Apostolic – Leaving the first love… “All they which are in Asia be turned away from me…” – II Tim 1:15
2. Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. This spirit can invade any church!
5. Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
6. Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love.
7. Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

The Calvin age was a Sardisean age, and as Soteriology was a big topic in this age so Christ Jesus addresses the issue...

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:4-5

My personal feelings is that the OSAS doctrine is an excuse to be a cold, selfish person. I have seen this in its people. Since the individual feels he cannot loose his salvation he does not press his way into deeper experiences with the Lord Jesus Christ. I am glad that this doctrine is limited to a single church age... Not all believe this way.

But... I believe in eternal security! But only after Christ has been fully developed in a believers heart! In which Wesley would call total sanctification! I just know too many in my generation who have not parted ways with the foolishness of the flesh.
 
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bornofGod888

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I am not cherry picking and you are using the typical attack the poster tactic to not answer the question. Again, who is the man who's LAWLESS deeds are forgiven and who's sin is covered? Who is the man who's sin the Lord will not take into account?

Btw, you do realize that those who come to Christ are to put away their "LAWLESS deeds", don't you? You know, like Jesus taught here:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." - Matthew 7:13-27

Yes, according to Jesus Christ, those who "work iniquity" or those who "practice LAWLESSNESS" (see, I can capitalize, too) will be told to "depart" on the day of judgment. Again, according to Jesus Christ, a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit, so your "LAWLESS deeds" had better come to an end before it is too late.
 
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bornofGod888

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brinny linked to an audio sermon in her OP a couple of weeks ago and I would seriously recommend that all of you take the time to listen to it:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7785001/

For some of you, it could literally be the difference between eternal life and eternal damnation.
 
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Hentenza

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No, they don't. How does that change the fact that God desires all to come to repentance?



That doesn't change the fact that God desired all of Israel to come under His wings, but unfortunately, Israel refused.



Yes, but it is God's desire that no Christian should commit fornication. Just because God desires it, does not mean it will always happen. God gave each and everyone of us free will, after all.

Ok, when is free will exercised? If God is the first cause and if God is perfect in every respect including knowledge, then God cannot be contingent on your "free will," otherwise He would be contingent on you to finish His knowledge. Is God contingent on you? Does He not know, since before the foundation of the world, whether you would or would not accept Him?

Secondly, your argument here is problematic. In your interpretation God desires that all men be saved but it does not happen and God desires that Christians should not commit fornication but, again, it does not happen. Is God powerless to fulfill His desires?
 
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