All Things Talmud

[dnc101]

You have touched on some very significant issues in this comment. I would like to prepare a thorough post regarding them if you don't mind, but I'm currently battling a small bout of insomnia, and my mind is not exactly clear at the moment. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

I understand all too well, as I chronically suffer from some major sleep problems. I don't know if there is a time stamp on these posts, but if there is you'll see many of mine are made at 2:00, 3:00 or even later AM. By then though I am drooling on the keyboard so I stop.

At any rate, get to it when you feel ready and I look forward to reading it.

It was certainly not my intention to start this thread in order to teach Talmud.

Darn!

First of all, I am not qualified to do so [not even close]. I'm not even a Rabbi, let alone a Talmudic scholar. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that would break CF rules in one way or another, but I'm not positive. My intentions for starting this thread was mainly to provide a copy of the text, and perhaps field some questions on the subject by referring to other texts authored by those who are actually qualified to do so.

Yeah, we'd be dodging the "forum cops"- maybe they'd sell us an indulgence?

Actually, I think they'd understand if we took it to the Talmud section and kept it reasonable.

I'm not interested in debating the identity of the Jewish Messiah in this thread, nor is it necessary for a discussion of Talmud. Jews have been studying Talmud for well over a thousand years without any consideration of Jesus' Messianic claims. I think we can pull it off in this thread as well.

This is an area we'll all have to be reasonable in. The Talmud is relevant to you as a Jew in light of Judaism and its teachings, and your posts will necessarily reflect that even if you do manage to stay in-bounds. Likewise, we as Messianics will make everything relevant to us in light of our belief in Yeshua as Messiah. Our posts will reflect that even if we try to stay "sensitive" to your beliefs. And some posts may spin off to the main board so you'll have to bite your tongue there. Again, I empathise with you since I worship in a mainstream church, having no Messianic congregation close by. My tongue is sore every Sunday from some often severe bites! But, life is what it is.

As for the history of the Talmud, and the differences between the Babylonian and Jerusalem texts, you should be able to find the answers to those questions here...

History of the Talmud

The two Talmuds

If not, I have numerous text books on that very sort of thing that I can host for you to download. Just let me know.

I've opened a favorites folder for "Talmud." I'll get them in there and take a look. Thanks.

Your entire post is a perfect example of what I had envisioned for this thread. Honest, level headed, logical, rational discussion, without a trace of sarcasm or hatred. I thank you for that my friend!

No problem; I appreciate your willingness to discuss it. And let's face it, I came her to learn.

I won't lie to you- I'd like to convert every Jew and gentile alive. To believe as I do and say different would be the most callous kind of indifference. However there is a time and place for that. I know you are Jewish and don't believe, and (I think) the Gemara at least was mostly written in a period of time where there was a lot of persecution of Jews by so-called "Christians." So I expect there'll be some difficult passages there, and rest assured I'll bite my tongue (I do have lots of practice ) as long as the discussion stays in that context.

I had to say that as I probably have a rep for being outspoken. But I've also admitted here I was wrong when shown so by others. Like I said, I'm here to learn. If I had all the answers, I'd call myself "Rav Dan" and open a schul. Now that's a scary thought right there!

Dan (hey, I'm more humble than ya'll think! ) C

 

[Laureate]

geee, whizzz

 

[dnc101]

... me? ..., Slalom.

Skier?



Sorry, bro, couldn' resist!

Dan C

 

[Laureate]

"

It was certainly not my intention to start this thread in order to teach Talmud. First of all, I am not qualified to do so [not even close]. I'm not even a Rabbi, let alone a Talmudic scholar. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that would break CF rules in one way or another, but I'm not positive. My intentions for starting this thread was mainly to provide a copy of the text, and perhaps field some questions on the subject by referring to other texts authored by those who are actually qualified to do so.

As for the history of the Talmud, and the differences between the Babylonian and Jerusalem texts, you should be able to find the answers to those questions here...

History of the Talmud

The two Talmuds

If not, I have numerous text books on that very sort of thing that I can host for you to download. Just let me know.


I'm not interested in debating the identity of the Jewish Messiah in this thread, nor is it necessary for a discussion of Talmud. Jews have been studying Talmud for well over a thousand years without any consideration of Jesus' Messianic claims. I think we can pull it off in this thread as well.

"

Ahhh! You lost me right there, brother!
I'm here thinking to myself, If he can not hold up the Talmud in the light of the Torah, then What good can the Talmud possibly be unto him? let alone me?
No sarcasm or hatred intended, Slalom.

If you feel you were inspired from on high to post this thread, then what does your intentions have to do with anything, Yah! has your back, please proceed.

 

[Laureate]

Skier?



Sorry, bro, couldn' resist!

Dan C

I'm gonna change my user name to 'Tiny Buttons', hmmm, and my signature can be...'Let your fingers do the stammering', but if you let my ego tell it, The Most High is just trying to equalize the playing field around here!

 

[Avodat]

The OP should put a link to the Talmud source(s) on the Sticky where other books, web-sites etc are located.

 

[dnc101]

I'm gonna change my user name to 'Tiny Buttons', hmmm, and my signature can be...'Let your fingers do the stammering', but if you let my ego tell it, The Most High is just trying to equalize the playing field around here!

Don't sweat it. The way I type, you'll get your chance for revenge soon enough!

Dan C

 

[Torah Lishmah]

My view on the Jewish Oral Tradition is one which I find common amongst most Messianics I've met online or in person or read about. That is that it is commentary and not equal to scripture in authority. It is however commentary by people who were there, or at least a lot closer than later Christian commentators. This may be in conflict with Jewish beliefs, as I understand some put it at the same level of authority as scripture- you'll have to enlighten me/us about that though. At any rate, Messianics do not outright reject Talmudic teachings as far as I know. We just may not see eye-to-eye with you or each other on it.

The accusation [by those who oppose the Oral Law] that Judaism holds the Talmud equal to, or above the written Torah in authority is a common fallacy. It simply isn't true. If you ask any religious Jew what the holiest book of Judaism is, every one of them will tell you it is the written Torah. If anyone reading this doesn't believe me, you can test this for yourself by simply contacting your local Rabbi, and asking him.

There are many practical examples that prove the supremacy of written Torah as well. Consider that a Jew is obligated to know, and teach the written Torah [Yehoshua 1:8] all the days of his life. This is not so with Talmud. Also consider that each week, all over the world, religious Jews immerse themselves in the study of the weekly Torah parashat. There is no such thing as a "weekly Talmud parashat." There are many more such examples as these, but I'm sure you can easily grasp what I'm saying here. The accusation that the Talmud reigns supreme in Judaism is utter nonsense, promoted by those who don't have a clue what their talking about, or have a religious axe to grind. It's that simple.

Over the course of the next few days I'm going to be adding quite a few things to the first post in thread to clarify some of these common misconceptions. You may want to keep an eye on it.

 

[Lulav]

The OP should put a link to the Talmud source(s) on the Sticky where other books, web-sites etc are located.

Self promo again?

 

[dnc101]

The accusation [by those who oppose the Oral Law] that Judaism holds the Talmud equal to, or above the written Torah in authority is a common fallacy. It simply isn't true ...

Well, see there, I learned something already! Thanks.

Dan C

 

[pat34lee]

The accusation [by those who oppose the Oral Law] that Judaism holds the Talmud equal to, or above the written Torah in authority is a common fallacy. It simply isn't true. If you ask any religious Jew what the holiest book of Judaism is, every one of them will tell you it is the written Torah. If anyone reading this doesn't believe me, you can test this for yourself by simply contacting your local Rabbi, and asking him.

There are many practical examples that prove the supremacy of written Torah as well. Consider that a Jew is obligated to know, and teach the written Torah [Yehoshua 1:8] all the days of his life. This is not so with Talmud. Also consider that each week, all over the world, religious Jews immerse themselves in the study of the weekly Torah parashat. There is no such thing as a "weekly Talmud parashat." There are many more such examples as these, but I'm sure you can easily grasp what I'm saying here. The accusation that the Talmud reigns supreme in Judaism is utter nonsense, promoted by those who don't have a clue what their talking about, or have a religious axe to grind. It's that simple.

Over the course of the next few days I'm going to be adding quite a few things to the first post in thread to clarify some of these common misconceptions. You may want to keep an eye on it.

I don't doubt that most Jews do not consciously hold the talmud to be equal or superior to the Torah. But when you believe that the Torah is insufficient by itself to guide you, and that the talmud is required in order to understand it, then you put it on an equal footing to the Torah. It is a lock and key situation; neither is complete without the other.

Also, following the commands of the talmud is considered to be the same as following the Torah, even where they conflict.

 

[muffler dragon]

Torah Lishmah:

Question: Is there any discussion within the Talmud about literalism and allegory/metaphor of the Torah?

In my previous study of Jewish literature, I always enjoyed reading rabbinical thoughts and evaluations, but I never considered what the base substantiation for that POV might be. Obviously, there's inference over time that has been held, but I was more cure about overt representation of the difference between literal and otherwise.

 

[muffler dragon]

But when you believe that the Torah is insufficient by itself to guide you, and that the talmud is required in order to understand it, then you put it on an equal footing to the Torah.

If I may be so bold, then I'll go ahead and label this the non sequitur that it is.

Reason being: there is no human being living or dead who could pick up the Pentateuch and understand it 100% without some sort of assistance. You could replace the word "talmud" with so many different objects (paster, clergy, liturgical pieces, decrees, etc) and see the same correlation. This is the case with all religions and philosophies.

 

[Laureate]

If I may be so bold, then I'll go ahead and label this the non sequitur that it is.

Reason being: there is no human being living or dead who could pick up the Pentateuch and understand it 100% without some sort of assistance. You could replace the word "talmud" with so many different objects (paster, clergy, liturgical pieces, decrees, etc) and see the same correlation. This is the case with all religions and philosophies.

blind leading the blind, if we hold our peace, and allow Isaiah tell it...

Isaiah 29:10 For YHWH has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers has he covered. 29:11 And the entire Prophecy has become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I beg of you: and he says, I cannot; for it is sealed: 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I beg of you: and he says, I am not learned.

"...no person living or dead..." I truly love your choice of words, however I believe John disagrees with you...

Revelation 5:1 AND I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 5:3 And NO MAN, IN HEAVEN, NOR ON EARTH, NEITHER UNDER THE EARTH, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5:5 And one of the elders says unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Yehudah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

 

[muffler dragon]

blind leading the blind, if we hold our peace, and allow Isaiah tell it...

Isaiah 29:10 For YHWH has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers has he covered. 29:11 And the entire Prophecy has become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I beg of you: and he says, I cannot; for it is sealed: 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I beg of you: and he says, I am not learned.

I don't follow what you're attempting to say. Sincerely asking: do you know what I mean by non sequitur (aka fallacy)?

 

[dnc101]

I am slowly working my way through Leviticus, the only book in the Bible that that is read less by Christians than Revelation. If its existence is even acknowledged by Christians, it is said to be obsolete, done away with. Since becoming Messianic I obviously disagree. So, even though I don't for example offer sacrifices, I still slogged my way through the first 10 chapters. When I could stay awake reading it, even the simple, direct (p'שat) "what you see" scripture wasn't always clear. The hinted (remez) meanings and commentary (darash) were mostly lost on me; and of course the deeper meanings (sod) were totally lost. Reading bot traditional Christian and Jewish commentary gave those chapters meaning.

Commentary can bring far more meaning and insight than we'll ever get from our own limited perspective. I suspect I'm getting a lot of Talmudic perspective in the commentary in my JPS Study Bible. But it brings things to the table you'll never get from Christian commentators. It adds understanding I could never get on my own as well. History, customs, wordplay, and a variety of interpretations as well as things that were revealed to different men at different times- and all I have to do is read and use a little discernment. It's those commentaries that turn time spent frying neurons and depleting brain cells in Levitical limbo into a meaningful Bible study.

Commentary is not scripture, but it can enhance our understanding of scripture. So yes, reading what men closer to the culture and times of actual scriptural events could be a worthwhile endeavor in my mind. Add to that I've seen charts of how many of the things Yeshua said came from or related to the Oral Tradition. I'm not so quick to discount the Talmud out of hand. My wife reminds me there are some pretty wild writings in there as well, but that doesn't invalidate the whole thing.

Discernment is the key to reading any commentary or extra-biblical works. Several people reading and discussing a particular passage means several discerning spirits working on it at once. Kewl.

Dan C

 

[Lulav]

The Mishnah is a practical compilation of the subjects contained in the books of the Torah. It gives quick reference to specific subject matter which helps in Jewish legal matters. It was written down before The Ramban came up with the 613 mitzvot to be found and then organized under specific categories. These tractates help one to locate all the data gathered on a specific subject to be able to pass on to the people.

The Talmud was compiled as an outcome of the slaughter of many Jews and Jewish leaders. They feared this knowledge would be lost and felt it best to write it down.

It also contains a tractate specifically on quotes from well known Rabbi's.

These tractate were studyed by G-dly men and their thoughts and commentaries on them were recorded and we have the Talmud.

When you understand that the Torah is a book of Law, you will realize that the Mishnah Torah is a explicit breakdown of the various laws it contains and the Talmud is commentaries on application.

If you've ever been in a law library or a lawyers office you will see big green books on the shelf and these contain the secular version of the Talmud.

 

[Laureate]

I don't follow what you're attempting to say. Sincerely asking: do you know what I mean by non sequitur (aka fallacy)?

Yes, and I was agreeing with 'do not follow' the commentaries of the blind, as if it were scripture, seeing how we have scripture to indicate such.

When I say, 'we should hold our peace, and let Isaiah tell it', I'm saying, we (in general) should refrain from making commentaries without scriptural reference, or else we are using commentary to measure commentary.

The part that was disagreeable with John, is when you said '...No man...', the lamb is the Only man who Is able to understand/loosen the seals thereof.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

While reading the posts in this thread something occured to me. Starting this thread to cover the entire Talmud probably wasn't a very good idea. Why is that? Because the Talmud is an enormous document that covers the totality of scripture. "All things Talmud" is akin to starting a thread entitled "The Bible." The natural outcome of such an endeavor will result in posts, and their subject matter, going all over the place. I believe that type of posting breeds much confusion, rather than clarity.

In light of that, I have decided to start a new thread entitled "Talmud 101" that will cover the basics of Talmud only. I'll get to work on that right after Shabbat, and submit it some time next week. One must have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of Talmud before any real understanding can be apprehended. Furthermore, it will be the only thread at CF that I will participate in, due to time constraints.

 

[mishkan]

While reading the posts in this thread something occured to me. Starting this thread to cover the entire Talmud probably wasn't a very good idea. Why is that? Because the Talmud is an enormous document that covers the totality of scripture. "All things Talmud" is akin to starting a thread entitled "The Bible." The natural outcome of such an endeavor will result in posts, and their subject matter, going all over the place. I believe that type of posting breeds much confusion, rather than clarity.

Wise, indeed.

In light of that, I have decided to start a new thread entitled "Talmud 101" that will cover the basics of Talmud only. I'll get to work on that right after Shabbat, and submit it some time next week. One must have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of Talmud before any real understanding can be apprehended. Furthermore, it will be the only thread at CF that I will participate in, due to time constraints.

Sounds like a plan!