POST TWO OF TWO
[FONT="]2) Similar tutelage of other prophets regarding the “original” gospel plan of redemption[/FONT]
[FONT="]Such early doctrines and textual traditions form consistent and repeating doctrinal themes as they describe other prophets undergoing similar divine tutelage in similar ways. For example, the early Abrahamic literature describes Abrahams enlightenment concerning the gospel as he exits his relative ignorance of his idolatrous milieu of childhood into the process of discovering the true God and the gospel. In one early ascension text Abraham speaks to God and asks for gospel knowledge, saying : ”... you make the light shine before the morning light upon your creation from your face to spend the day on the earth, and in your heavenly dwelling place (there is) an inexhaustible light of an invincible dawning from the light of your face. ....Receive me favorably, teach me, show me, and make known to your servant what you have promised me. The Apocalypse of Abraham 17:1-2, 7, 18-21[/FONT]
[FONT="]Just as Adam was taught more than the simple promise of redemption, the Prophets also were taught concerning many details regarding the unfolding of God’s plan to sieve and redeem mankind even to the end times. [/FONT]
[FONT="]In the same manner that Jewish Haggadah tells us that Adam was shown : “each generation and its leaders; each generation and it’s prophets; each generation and its teachers ...”. When the prophet Baruch expresses concern over the destruction of earthly Jerusalem and the earthly temple, God teaches him that the ultimate Jerusalem of the end times, together with it’s temple will be revealed in the end times, AND, that this plan was revealed not merely to Baruch, but to Moses, and to the earlier Prophet Abraham, and even to the earliest man, Adam. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Thus God explained to the prophet Baruch : “... It is not this building that is in your midst now; it is that which will be revealed, with me, that was already prepared from the moment that I decided to create Paradise. And I showed it to Adam before he sinned. But when he transgressed the commandment, it was taken away from him–as also Paradise. After these things I showed it to my servant Abraham in the night ....” And again I showed it also to Moses on Mount Sinai when I showed him the likeness of the tabernacle and all its vessels. The Apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 4:1-5 (Compare this version with ps-phi8lo 23:6 and GenR 44:12).[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 And (I saw) there the earth and it’s fruit, and it’s moving things and it’s things that had souls, and it’s host of men and the impiety of their souls and their justification, and their pursuit of their works and t....I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal. Ch 22 1 “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face. And then, afterward, I gave them a command by my word and they came into existence. Whatever I had decreed was to exist had been outlined in this and all the previously created (things) you have seen “came to stand before me.” 3 And I said, “O sovereign, mighty and eternal! Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?” 4 And he said to me, “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some prepared for judgment and order, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age. 5 those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of ....what will be and how much will be for your name among people in the last days. ...And what you cannot understand, I will make known to you because you have been pleasing before my face and I will tell you what I have kept in my heart.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3[/FONT]
[FONT="]The LDS version of this event described in the ancient texts reads : “...I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (3:21-23)[/FONT]
[FONT="]Similar descriptive themes weave through much of the early Judeo-Christian literature. For example, in a manner similar to Adam and Abraham, the Prophet Enoch in a similar ascension text describes being shown “the curtain of the Omnipresent One, which is spread before the holy One ...on which are printed all the generations of the world and all their deeds, whether done or to be done, till the last generation.” [/FONT]
[FONT="]The Prophet Enoch, looking over these representations of broad sweeping swaths of earths history says : “...I saw each generation and its potentiates, ...3...and I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts; Noah and the generation of the flood, their deeds and their thoughts;....Abraham and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts......the teachers of the children in Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; the teachers of the children of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts;...all the prophets of Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; all the prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...And I saw: the Messiah the son of Joseph and his generation, and all that they will do to the gentiles.....” 3rd Enoch 45:1-5[/FONT]
[FONT="]3) The effect of a seeding of an “original” gospel being given to Adam and episodically revealed to later prophets such as to Enoch, then later to Abraham, then later to Moses.[/FONT]
[FONT="]IF the gospel of a redeemer was revealed to Adam, who taught it to his children, then some principles of this gospel would have spread out in varying levels of purity with his children as they spread out across the world. Thus, some “doctrinal debris” should exist from the revelation of the gospel to Adam, though one would expect it to have undergone a great deal of contamination and change. Then, with each new revelation and restoration of this plan of redemption, we should see further doctrinal debris and forms of these religious themes just as we see many versions of the Christianity revealed through Jesus that have split, changed, and evolved into the multiple modern Christian movements, related, but different.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Certainly this is what seems to be the case, many versions and a great deal of “doctrinal debris” and versions that are similar in nature to very basic Judeo-Christian morality and themes and traditions. Bits and pieces thrown out from a narrow source, bits and pieces found in distant places “like shot from a shotgun.” If, original pieces are found, they may be seen to be related by one who is expecting to find them and with an eye prepared to compare the pieces.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Good luck in your journey Ran77[/FONT]
[FONT="]Thanks for your thought soulgazer.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Clearly[/FONT]
[FONT="]Tweieiii[/FONT]
[FONT="]p.s. rEACHout4all said in post 34 “All the talk about resurrecting flesh makes me think of egyptian theology.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Me too. The various Egyptian parallels contain examples of what I mean by “doctrinal debris” from adam and early prophets . [/FONT]
[FONT="] I had a conversation with an Egyptian theist who claimed that early Judaism stemmed FROM early egyptian theology (and the Christian parallels that Christianity inherited from Judaism). His data consisted of the many parallels between Egyptian/Ugaritic/etc. religions and later Judaism. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Parallels notwithstanding, IF the “original” gospel of a redeemer was taught to adam and early prophets, then these early versions of the Christian gospel in the earliest periods and their movement into the later Egyptian theology better explain the source of similarities rather than vice versa. [/FONT]
[FONT="]If clement was correct regarding his claim of pre-creation christian theology that “…[/FONT][FONT="] the Books and the Apostles declare that the church not only exists now, but has been in existence from the beginning. For she was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, but was revealed in the last days in order that she might save us. Now the church being spiritual, was revealed in the flesh of Christ[/FONT][FONT="], …” 2nd Clement 14:3 [/FONT]
[FONT="]It is in this same context of gospel principles existing prior to Judaism that Ignatius said : [/FONT][FONT="]“It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity,...” Ignatius to the Magnesians 10:3[/FONT]
[FONT="]This last claim reminds us of the initial excitement among Jewish Scholars regarding the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. However, once the description of the Jewish beliefs found in them began to be translated, the excitement waned mainly due to the fact that they did not confirm Jewish concepts of early Judaism but were “too Christian”. (Teicher in fact claimed that they were Christian… The Christian Scholars should have been excited about this, but they too were bothered by a form of “christianity” that existed before Jesus. Historians and restorationists seemed to be the only groups that remained enthusiastic about such descriptions.[/FONT]
Clearly
[FONT="]2) Similar tutelage of other prophets regarding the “original” gospel plan of redemption[/FONT]
[FONT="]Such early doctrines and textual traditions form consistent and repeating doctrinal themes as they describe other prophets undergoing similar divine tutelage in similar ways. For example, the early Abrahamic literature describes Abrahams enlightenment concerning the gospel as he exits his relative ignorance of his idolatrous milieu of childhood into the process of discovering the true God and the gospel. In one early ascension text Abraham speaks to God and asks for gospel knowledge, saying : ”... you make the light shine before the morning light upon your creation from your face to spend the day on the earth, and in your heavenly dwelling place (there is) an inexhaustible light of an invincible dawning from the light of your face. ....Receive me favorably, teach me, show me, and make known to your servant what you have promised me. The Apocalypse of Abraham 17:1-2, 7, 18-21[/FONT]
[FONT="]Just as Adam was taught more than the simple promise of redemption, the Prophets also were taught concerning many details regarding the unfolding of God’s plan to sieve and redeem mankind even to the end times. [/FONT]
[FONT="]In the same manner that Jewish Haggadah tells us that Adam was shown : “each generation and its leaders; each generation and it’s prophets; each generation and its teachers ...”. When the prophet Baruch expresses concern over the destruction of earthly Jerusalem and the earthly temple, God teaches him that the ultimate Jerusalem of the end times, together with it’s temple will be revealed in the end times, AND, that this plan was revealed not merely to Baruch, but to Moses, and to the earlier Prophet Abraham, and even to the earliest man, Adam. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Thus God explained to the prophet Baruch : “... It is not this building that is in your midst now; it is that which will be revealed, with me, that was already prepared from the moment that I decided to create Paradise. And I showed it to Adam before he sinned. But when he transgressed the commandment, it was taken away from him–as also Paradise. After these things I showed it to my servant Abraham in the night ....” And again I showed it also to Moses on Mount Sinai when I showed him the likeness of the tabernacle and all its vessels. The Apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 4:1-5 (Compare this version with ps-phi8lo 23:6 and GenR 44:12).[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 And (I saw) there the earth and it’s fruit, and it’s moving things and it’s things that had souls, and it’s host of men and the impiety of their souls and their justification, and their pursuit of their works and t....I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal. Ch 22 1 “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face. And then, afterward, I gave them a command by my word and they came into existence. Whatever I had decreed was to exist had been outlined in this and all the previously created (things) you have seen “came to stand before me.” 3 And I said, “O sovereign, mighty and eternal! Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?” 4 And he said to me, “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some prepared for judgment and order, others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age. 5 those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of ....what will be and how much will be for your name among people in the last days. ...And what you cannot understand, I will make known to you because you have been pleasing before my face and I will tell you what I have kept in my heart.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3[/FONT]
[FONT="]The LDS version of this event described in the ancient texts reads : “...I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (3:21-23)[/FONT]
[FONT="]Similar descriptive themes weave through much of the early Judeo-Christian literature. For example, in a manner similar to Adam and Abraham, the Prophet Enoch in a similar ascension text describes being shown “the curtain of the Omnipresent One, which is spread before the holy One ...on which are printed all the generations of the world and all their deeds, whether done or to be done, till the last generation.” [/FONT]
[FONT="]The Prophet Enoch, looking over these representations of broad sweeping swaths of earths history says : “...I saw each generation and its potentiates, ...3...and I saw Adam and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts; Noah and the generation of the flood, their deeds and their thoughts;....Abraham and his generation, their deeds and their thoughts......the teachers of the children in Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; the teachers of the children of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts;...all the prophets of Israel and their generations, their deeds and their acts; all the prophets of the gentiles and their generations, their deeds and their acts...And I saw: the Messiah the son of Joseph and his generation, and all that they will do to the gentiles.....” 3rd Enoch 45:1-5[/FONT]
[FONT="]3) The effect of a seeding of an “original” gospel being given to Adam and episodically revealed to later prophets such as to Enoch, then later to Abraham, then later to Moses.[/FONT]
[FONT="]IF the gospel of a redeemer was revealed to Adam, who taught it to his children, then some principles of this gospel would have spread out in varying levels of purity with his children as they spread out across the world. Thus, some “doctrinal debris” should exist from the revelation of the gospel to Adam, though one would expect it to have undergone a great deal of contamination and change. Then, with each new revelation and restoration of this plan of redemption, we should see further doctrinal debris and forms of these religious themes just as we see many versions of the Christianity revealed through Jesus that have split, changed, and evolved into the multiple modern Christian movements, related, but different.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Certainly this is what seems to be the case, many versions and a great deal of “doctrinal debris” and versions that are similar in nature to very basic Judeo-Christian morality and themes and traditions. Bits and pieces thrown out from a narrow source, bits and pieces found in distant places “like shot from a shotgun.” If, original pieces are found, they may be seen to be related by one who is expecting to find them and with an eye prepared to compare the pieces.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Good luck in your journey Ran77[/FONT]
[FONT="]Thanks for your thought soulgazer.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Clearly[/FONT]
[FONT="]Tweieiii[/FONT]
[FONT="]p.s. rEACHout4all said in post 34 “All the talk about resurrecting flesh makes me think of egyptian theology.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Me too. The various Egyptian parallels contain examples of what I mean by “doctrinal debris” from adam and early prophets . [/FONT]
[FONT="] I had a conversation with an Egyptian theist who claimed that early Judaism stemmed FROM early egyptian theology (and the Christian parallels that Christianity inherited from Judaism). His data consisted of the many parallels between Egyptian/Ugaritic/etc. religions and later Judaism. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Parallels notwithstanding, IF the “original” gospel of a redeemer was taught to adam and early prophets, then these early versions of the Christian gospel in the earliest periods and their movement into the later Egyptian theology better explain the source of similarities rather than vice versa. [/FONT]
[FONT="]If clement was correct regarding his claim of pre-creation christian theology that “…[/FONT][FONT="] the Books and the Apostles declare that the church not only exists now, but has been in existence from the beginning. For she was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, but was revealed in the last days in order that she might save us. Now the church being spiritual, was revealed in the flesh of Christ[/FONT][FONT="], …” 2nd Clement 14:3 [/FONT]
[FONT="]It is in this same context of gospel principles existing prior to Judaism that Ignatius said : [/FONT][FONT="]“It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity,...” Ignatius to the Magnesians 10:3[/FONT]
[FONT="]This last claim reminds us of the initial excitement among Jewish Scholars regarding the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. However, once the description of the Jewish beliefs found in them began to be translated, the excitement waned mainly due to the fact that they did not confirm Jewish concepts of early Judaism but were “too Christian”. (Teicher in fact claimed that they were Christian… The Christian Scholars should have been excited about this, but they too were bothered by a form of “christianity” that existed before Jesus. Historians and restorationists seemed to be the only groups that remained enthusiastic about such descriptions.[/FONT]
Clearly
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