Both Evolution and Christianity?

CounselorForChrist

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I don't believe in evolution per say. At least not the man came from apes thing. I do believe creatures can "Adapt" to situations. Such as something like a virus (computer or body one) that adapts to overcome things that are trying to stop it.

The only thing I do believe, or at least will partially accept is the big bang. Not the part about millions of years and all that. BUt the fact if there was a big bang, I say it was God bringing everything to be that 7 day period since after all God did turn nothingness into something. Even then I try not to say it like that because I don't want people to think I believe really in the big bang since the bible does say it tooks 7 days, not one giant explosion.
 
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LoricaLady

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I Believe in Evolution and God! Now don't get me wrong; I never said I believe in The Big Bang. Evolution has nothing to do with The Big Bang Theory other than the fact that Evolution is the Basis of The Big Bang Theory. Evolution and The Big Bang Theory are two completely different things, although they coincide in some aspects. You see, evolution influences the form and behavior of organisms to better suit their habit. Evolution happens when there is a change in the environment and the species or race has to adapt to it--thus can evolve into a distinctly new species. Many people have the wrong idea of Evolution; immediately thinking of The Big Bang Theory. I suggest you do more research.

And no, I don't believe we evolved from apes.
I thought you might like to know that, in all innocence and sincerity, you are buying into one of the major, well, lies, of evoltuion. This is the lie that creation of a new species equals evolution. Speciation was observed and studied long before Darwin who, in truth, never showed any origin of any species ever in his misnamed book.

All living things have the ability to adapt, but only to a certain extent. Evolutionists never even touch on where that ability comes from, how it got there since there is no evolutionary explanation. For example, why is it possible to get a new color of a fflower, one never seen before, or say, to create a new ruffle on the edge of the tuplip? Because already inside that flower there are genes that can be shuffled and manipulated by either human intervention or outside circumstances.

Again, these changes are limited. They go as far as creating new species. As I said earlier, 200 species of bees, though, are still bees. Everyone of them. Darwinists want you to believe the bee, or whatever, just keeps changing farther and farther until you have a nonbee, until a lizard turns into a bird, an ape into a man.

First, there is zero fossil evidence that any such thing has ever happened. I heard Ken Miller, world famous evoevangelist, say "Tiktaalik is as good as it gets for a transitional form." But it isn't "transitioning" into anything! It is 100% a lobe finned fish. They tell you they know what happened to it's descendants, based on fancy words like "similar homology" and "has characteristics of", but there is zero evidence for any such thing! For all they know Tik was the last of its kind, another of innumerable dead end, extinct, species. They have no evidence it led to tetrapods, yet they tell you it led to tetrapods! Do you see something wrong with that picture?

When people tell you they can look into the past and tell you how organisms invisible descendants' invisible descendants' reproduced, you are out of the realm of science and into the world of magical thinking.

Now, what would you have to do to get a fin to turn into a foot. (And, no, walking fish do not have feet. They are 100% fish with 100% fins that function in a novel way and there is 0 evidence they will ever be anything but fins on a fish.) You would have to have new DNA. To turn a fin into a bigger fin, or a fin that can act somewhat like a foot, you simply need to shuffle genes that already exist inside the animal, or maybe eliminate them. When this happens often enough you will get a new species....of fish only. But, fish don't have genetic info for legs, just as lizards don't haved genetic info already inside for wings, and apes don't have info inside for things unique to humans. New DNA would have to be created to enable them to make those changes.

DNA is astronomically complex and lengthy coded information. The evoltutionists haven't a clue where it came from. It is never seen to be created in our world. That is what you need to turn a fin into a foot. And it would require incredible amounts of it becuase you wouldn't have to just change the fin, you would have to change the cortex which gives instructions on how to move, the arteriies that would need new blood pathways, new nerves for both sensory and motor purposes....welll, the list just goes on and on. There is no way a random process of nature is going to be able to coordinate, much less cause, all that.

Ever hear that song, "The leg bone's connected to the...."? In order for a fish to get a working foot it would need innumerable body parts already prebuilt and functioning in codependent and interdependent way. That's not gonna happen by accidents of nature. You can't build up the cortex and wait until it's complete, while building up the nerve pathways, and wait for them to be complete, etc. etc. and hold them all in limbo through evoltuioin until they can all work synchronously together. The idea is absurd & has no data whatsoever to back it up. Every creature is irreducibly complex at the cell level on up.

Look at the gazillions of bacteria & algae & other microorganisms around the world, multiplying at rocket rates. Yes, sometimes they change their species, but they all stay bacteria, algae etc.! There is no evoltuion, no algae turning into non algae, etc., seen anywhere. Not in labs, not in the fossil records, not even with intelligent design through human manipulation.

Speciation is seen. That's it. And you need more than that to get any climbs up Darwin's so called "Tree of Life." And guess what? All his finches are still finches & there is 0 evidence they have ever been or ever will be anything else but finches.

In sum, natural selection and speciation are not examples of evolution. Nothing is an example of evolution because it never, ever happens.

Oh, and mutations, in additioin to natural selection, are said to be the other vehicle for evolution. No evidence for that either. Mutations are generally harmful, usually small, isolated events, and never ever are seen to build on one another to create new structures like leggos. Nowhere do we see them doing something like turning a leg into a wing, or doing much of anything impressive, really. They don't cause evolution and you will never be shown a single example of that, only "might have....millions of unobservable & unverifiable years ago...likely....probably....and we're gonna treat all those speculations and conjectures as if they are actually scientific evidence (since shhhh, we don't have any real evidence at all!!)"

B.S.!

Praying for you to come into a deep knowledge of the truth of these matters.
 
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Soothfish

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I have to admit that there are times when it is very tempting to believe that humanity isn't even specially created.

Ever had one of those days when you find yourself or someone else making an incredibly stupid mistake? Then you find yourself saying unconsciously "wow we're useless junk!"?
 
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LoricaLady

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I have to admit that there are times when it is very tempting to believe that humanity isn't even specially created.

Ever had one of those days when you find yourself or someone else making an incredibly stupid mistake? Then you find yourself saying unconsciously "wow we're useless junk!"?

I have made made so many mistakes, well, I'd be really embarrassed for them to all be known. But I never feel we are worthless junk. Messiah died a horrible death for us. Those who follow Him will be His bride. He didn't come to die for, and marry junk! You're His creation and though you are imperfect, He loves you and knows how to fix you up just fine in His perfect timing and ways so that the "trash" so to speak is turned into a great treasure! ;)
 
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Assyrian

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I understand Behe's argument quite well. As I have already said, all you have to do is take out one part of the flagellum. It it still does it's jobs, it's not irreducibly complex. Now that would be using real science, real data, to get real evidence. But, alas! Evolutinoists prefer to dwell in the land of millioins of unseen, unobservable & unverifiable years ago where they paint fanciful picture about what, in their humble opinions, is "possible."
Of course scientist will discuss when these changes might have taken place and look for evidence in the genomes of other related bacteria for similar genes to the ones that make up the flagellum and the much simpler Type III Secretion System. But just because you don’t like the millions of years, or the way they discuss possible evolutionary pathways, it doesn’t change the fact that there is a Type III Secretion System made up of some of the parts of the flagellum which us shows the flagellum is not irreducibly complex.

Like the fellow above you feel words like "no possible way..." and "plausbile pathway..." are something other than purely conjecturall. However, they are based on no data, only on, uh...faaaaaith....therefore they are not part of real science. Don't tell me there is a "possible" way. Describe it. Give evidence it ever did happen. But, alas, there is no such evidence which is typical of evolution, 100% typical. If you want to believe, "Well, it all happened so long ago, that gosh, we just don't have any real evidence," keep your faith but don't call it science.
I have no problem recognising the difference between speculation (hypothesis) and speculations that have been backed up by the evidence, or indeed ones that have been contradicted by evidence and dropped. The thing is, science is confirmed or contradicted by the evidence we can discover. From your argument, it sounds like the only evidence you are prepared to accept is evidence that is beyond our reach. Science is based on the evidence we do have, not what we don't.

I challenge you also, as I did the poster above, to answer the Qs about how the bacterial flagellum's whip and motor could have evolved separately and have been any use whatsoever to the "bug" until both parts were complete, connected, and fully functioing as the irreducibly complex unit that they are.
You just need to find one combination like the Type III Secretion System to show the flagellum isn't irreducibly complex. It effectively demonstrates the failing of the whole irreducibly complex argument too, it shows that just because you cannot imagine a functioning system with fewer parts, it doesn't mean there aren't and that trying to disprove evolution through irreducible complexity fails.

Do you remembe 5th grade science? There you learned that an hypothesis-only ain't science. Have an hypothesis,say "It's possible...it's plausible...it's even probable...." but if you have no data to support it, and if you call the hypothesis, your conjecture, your dataless speculation "evidence", what you have is not science, but pseudo science, or you could call it...evolutionaory b.s.
Finding the Type III Secretion System isn't conjecture it is evidence supporting the conjecture, so is find very similar genes to the ones used for the flagellum and T3SS that have different functions in other bacteria.

Notice you have evaded addressing the Qs I already left, before.. If you understand Behe's arguments so well, enlighten me. Show me you can answer those Qs and use real science - what is observable & testable - and logic to answer those and the ones in this post.. But you won't answer the Qs because evolution doesn't have any answers because...it's based on faith presented as science.
Behe's argument doesn't need those questions answered to fail, it only takes the T3SS to show the flagellum isn't irreducibly complex. You seem to understand irreducible complexity, but refuse to accept his argument has failed even when you know about a reduced complexity form. Instead of accepting that the evidence has destroyed his argument, you hide behind a demand for evidence that is beyond our reach.

I see your faith. Show me your facts.
We have shown you the facts, they don't seem to make any difference for you.
 
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LoricaLady

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ASSYRIAN - You haven't answered the Qs and you never will. You still seem to feel that speculative words like "when these changes might have taken place....possible evolutionary pathways....evidence [-admittedly] beyond our reach..." quality as actual scientific data.

Answer the Qs. Quit evading them. You know so much, enlighten me already. If the flagellum isn't irreiducibly complex, tell me how & why evolution could produce that whip & its motor and hold them in limbo while they are useless for aeons as they "evolve". But you will never answer those Qs.

Here's another one. Where is there a study showing that one of Behe's flagellums' secretroy system components has been removed while leaving the bug still able to do all its jobs? I did ask something like that before. But you did evade that Q along with all the others.

You keep theorizing abou the secretory system. Give me some hard core data that it's absence ot lack of completion will not cause it to fail to do the job for Behe'e flagellum - not some flagellum that is doing some completely other job, not some theoretical flagellum that no one can ever observe or study "milliions of years ago", but the flagellum that Behe says is irredicubly complex.

If you aren't going to answer my Qs I'll just put you on ignore. I'm sorry but you are acting like you are this big science expert. But when I ask legitimate, science based, on topic Qs, you evade, evade, evade. You don't seem to see there is something wrong with that picture. It's not even polilte, either, to ignore the other posters Qs!

If you keep evading, and you likely will, I will just quit "debating" with you. You can't "debate" with someone who refuses to address pertinent Qs and frankly, it is also hard to respect anything said under those conditions.
 
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What makes evolution an interesting theory is that nothing has evolved in the last 1000 years and there is no evidence that anything has evolved in the last 1 million years. Of course there are species that are extinct. I have heard some say that Dinosaurs evolved to become lizards and i wonder if an Iguana was now extinct, we would say it had evolved into a lizard. It is some gibberish theory that is only proposed to put God out of the picture.

I graduated as a Physicist and now, I am more into ICT. Creation theories from the scientific point of view is guess work. It is just a bunch of theories that have refused to die for whatever reason. Having said that, I'd say it is interesting to study our origins but if the motive is to remove God from our lives, then we will live with lies.

Have you heard the argument that science is the answer to our questions? That is a big lie. scientists are the most divided set of people in the world. They don't agree because as one proves, another disproves. It is a cycle inwhich we can't put our faith and trust in.

The Bible isn't a history book. It is only a book that outlines the journey of redemption. Hence we can't use the bible to trace history.

As for God creating the earth in 6 days, when we get to heaven, we will understand better. But if we read the book of Genesis we have two creation stories. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. Genesis one is the spoken creation story and Genesis 2 is the actual creation story. The story in Genesis 2 is not in chronological sync with Genesis 1 if you read it. However, certain reasons can explain this facts,

1. The way of relaying information as at the time the book was written.
2. The purpose for which the book was written

Hence I can't say that the way it was written is the way it happened- ie the way Genesis 1 and 2 written in a no chronological way.

I think when the people out there see the bible as a book leading to redemption, then they will better appreciate it. But if they insist on attacking the contents without understanding the purpose of the Bible, then there will always be an argument , using our narrow mind, to understand things that are beyond us.
 
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LoricaLady

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Pretty good post, but I would say that the Bible is indeed a history book. Archaeological studies have verified literally thousands of names, places and historical accounts mentioned in there. It's from the Almighty. He doesn't get His facts wrong.
 
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Assyrian

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ASSYRIAN - You haven't answered the Qs and you never will. You still seem to feel that speculative words like "when these changes might have taken place....possible evolutionary pathways....evidence [-admittedly] beyond our reach..." quality as actual scientific data.

Answer the Qs. Quit evading them. You know so much, enlighten me already. If the flagellum isn't irreiducibly complex, tell me how & why evolution could produce that whip & its motor and hold them in limbo while they are useless for aeons as they "evolve". But you will never answer those Qs.

Here's another one. Where is there a study showing that one of Behe's flagellums' secretroy system components has been removed while leaving the bug still able to do all its jobs? I did ask something like that before. But you did evade that Q along with all the others.

You keep theorizing abou the secretory system. Give me some hard core data that it's absence ot lack of completion will not cause it to fail to do the job for Behe'e flagellum - not some flagellum that is doing some completely other job, not some theoretical flagellum that no one can ever observe or study "milliions of years ago", but the flagellum that Behe says is irredicubly complex.

If you aren't going to answer my Qs I'll just put you on ignore. I'm sorry but you are acting like you are this big science expert. But when I ask legitimate, science based, on topic Qs, you evade, evade, evade. You don't seem to see there is something wrong with that picture. It's not even polilte, either, to ignore the other posters Qs!

If you keep evading, and you likely will, I will just quit "debating" with you.
I've shown you that what we do know disproved Behe's irreducible complexity, why do you keep asking other questions that don't deal with this? Or are you just avoiding the problem? I suspect the answer to most of those questions is that we simply do not know the answer, some of them we will never know the answer too because they are lost in the mists of time. But I've already said this to you. I have also told you it is the things we do know that science is built on, and it is what we know of a simpler structure that can be build from a few of the parts of a flagellum that show the flagellum isn't irreducibly complex.

You can't "debate" with someone who refuses to address pertinent Qs and frankly, it is also hard to respect anything said under those conditions.
Sure you can debate them. It takes patience and you may not be able to get them to admit they are wrong. The thing is to let everyone else see they can't answer you and that they have to keep changing the subject and avoid the issue.
 
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Avniel

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I don't even see why it matters. If you believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and defeated death how you believe God created the heaven and earth doesn't really matter so long as you know He did it.
 
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hedrick

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I've shown you that what we do know disproved Behe's irreducible complexity, why do you keep asking other questions that don't deal with this? Or are you just avoiding the problem? I suspect the answer to most of those questions is that we simply do not know the answer, some of them we will never know the answer too because they are lost in the mists of time. But I've already said this to you. I have also told you it is the things we do know that science is built on, and it is what we know of a simpler structure that can be build from a few of the parts of a flagellum that show the flagellum isn't irreducibly complex.

Sure you can debate them. It takes patience and you may not be able to get them to admit they are wrong. The thing is to let everyone else see they can't answer you and that they have to keep changing the subject and avoid the issue.

I told LoricaLady that I'd make one more attempt to explain this to her. The only hope I can see is that maybe she doesn't realize that this whole discussion was about Intelligent Design, not about evolution as as whole.

Intelligent Design is one specific argument against evolution. It's a very specific theory. It is possible to disprove Behe's specific Intelligent Design without necessarily showing that evolution happened.

Behe tried to avoid the whole difficult argument about evidence by going around a different way: He maintained that evolution is impossible in principle, because there are certain structures that can't have evolved. Note: he doesn't say just that they didn't evolve. He said that they couldn't possibly evolve.

Why not? Because evolution occurs in small steps, and each step has to accomplish something. But part of a flagellum doesn't do any good, so the small steps couldn't have happened.

To defeat this argument, we don't need to come up with the actual way the flagellum evolved. We only need to show that part of a flagellum actually is useful. That's what Assyrian has tried to do.

Behe's book gave several examples of things he thought couldn't possibly have evolved, for similar reasons: they are all things where no part of them is useful on its own, so small steps couldn't have happened. Unfortunately for him plausible small steps have been shown for several of his examples. This page has pointers to several of them: Irreducible Complexity and Michael Behe on Intelligent Design
 
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LoricaLady

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A nice, long EVASIVE, bunch of verbiage that doesn't answer a single one of those Qs. "We don't have to answer...." But..but...you said you DID answer! So which is it? I'll tell you. You DIDN"T>

That's too bad Hendrick cause I do have answers. I have something observable, testable & repeatable, that whip & that flagellum. I have real data, real scientiiic information. I know from empirical observations and an understanding of basic statistics that random processes of nature cannot separately build up 2 codependent and interdependent parts to a machine in nature or elsewhere. You have "Plausible...we don't have to show proof."

"We only have to show that part of the flagellum is useful." What nonsense! So usefulness prove evolution? Sorry, but even the evolutionists aren't saying that!

My phone is useful, my car is useful. Gee, did they evolve too? No, I think they are products of intelligent design. I hope you are just the victim of sloppy thinking and not an out and out disinformationist - for your sake.

I have nothing more to say to you. Your responses have not been honest and I find that extremely distasteful.
 
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seeingeyes

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A nice, long EVASIVE, bunch of verbiage that doesn't answer a single one of those Qs. "We don't have to answer...." But..but...you said you DID answer! So which is it? I'll tell you. You DIDN"T>

That's too bad Hendrick cause I do have answers. I have something observable, testable & repeatable, that whip & that flagellum. I have real data, real scientiiic information. I know from empirical observations and an understanding of basic statistics that random processes of nature cannot separately build up 2 codependent and interdependent parts to a machine in nature or elsewhere. You have "Plausible...we don't have to show proof."

"We only have to show that part of the flagellum is useful." What nonsense! So usefulness prove evolution? Sorry, but even the evolutionists aren't saying that!

My phone is useful, my car is useful. Gee, did they evolve too? No, I think they are products of intelligent design. I hope you are just the victim of sloppy thinking and not an out and out disinformationist - for your sake.

I have nothing more to say to you. Your responses have not been honest and I find that extremely distasteful.

Are you purposefully trying not to understand what these posters are saying? My goodness...
 
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GenetoJean

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A nice, long EVASIVE, bunch of verbiage that doesn't answer a single one of those Qs. "We don't have to answer...." But..but...you said you DID answer! So which is it? I'll tell you. You DIDN"T>

That's too bad Hendrick cause I do have answers. I have something observable, testable & repeatable, that whip & that flagellum. I have real data, real scientiiic information. I know from empirical observations and an understanding of basic statistics that random processes of nature cannot separately build up 2 codependent and interdependent parts to a machine in nature or elsewhere. You have "Plausible...we don't have to show proof."

"We only have to show that part of the flagellum is useful." What nonsense! So usefulness prove evolution? Sorry, but even the evolutionists aren't saying that!

My phone is useful, my car is useful. Gee, did they evolve too? No, I think they are products of intelligent design. I hope you are just the victim of sloppy thinking and not an out and out disinformationist - for your sake.

I have nothing more to say to you. Your responses have not been honest and I find that extremely distasteful.

Christians who believe in evolution just believe that intelligent design, meaning God in my case, directed the evolution.
 
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Carmella Prochaska

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People are compromising with evolution & Christianity because they think that believing in evolution is more "intelligent" & "scientific". In my view, the 2 absolutely cannot co-exist. If you discard Genesis, you may as well discard any other book that doesn't seem accurate. Original sin has to come from the 1st 2 sinful human beings, not 2 ape-people just learning to say words. Jesus & His apostles believed in creation & Jesus was divinity personified. He would know what went on in the past.

Many people think that what mainstream science says must be correct because scientists must know most everything. Just like when mainstream science said most of our DNA was junk & now we know that's not the case. I had my doubt too but now I realize it's absurd to believe in evolution from a single cell. Louis Pasteur already showed that spontaneous generation or chemical evolution is impossible. The probability is 1 in 10^40,000. 1 in a number with 40,000 zeros after it! Crick was so desperate for an alternative idea for the origin of life that he believed in panspermia ... which doesn't really solve the problem :doh: I'm surprised that God took 6 days to create, considering he probably could have done it in a second. Evolution is an ideology based on no proof. The only thing that is heralded as evidence is genetic similarities & fossils. There's no hard empirical data. I read the book "In Six Days". It was an interesting read.
 
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Adaephon

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People are compromising with evolution & Christianity because they think that believing in evolution is more "intelligent" & "scientific". In my view, the 2 absolutely cannot co-exist. If you discard Genesis, you may as well discard any other book that doesn't seem accurate. Original sin has to come from the 1st 2 sinful human beings, not 2 ape-people just learning to say words. Jesus & His apostles believed in creation & Jesus was divinity personified. He would know what went on in the past.

Many people think that what mainstream science says must be correct because scientists must know most everything. Just like when mainstream science said most of our DNA was junk & now we know that's not the case. I had my doubt too but now I realize it's absurd to believe in evolution from a single cell. Louis Pasteur already showed that spontaneous generation or chemical evolution is impossible. The probability is 1 in 10^40,000. 1 in a number with 40,000 zeros after it! Crick was so desperate for an alternative idea for the origin of life that he believed in panspermia ... which doesn't really solve the problem :doh: I'm surprised that God took 6 days to create, considering he probably could have done it in a second. Evolution is an ideology based on no proof. The only thing that is heralded as evidence is genetic similarities & fossils. There's no hard empirical data. I read the book "In Six Days". It was an interesting read.

There is plenty of proof of evolution. Try reading a scientific journal sometime.
 
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GenetoJean

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People are compromising with evolution & Christianity because they think that believing in evolution is more "intelligent" & "scientific". In my view, the 2 absolutely cannot co-exist. If you discard Genesis, you may as well discard any other book that doesn't seem accurate. Original sin has to come from the 1st 2 sinful human beings, not 2 ape-people just learning to say words. Jesus & His apostles believed in creation & Jesus was divinity personified. He would know what went on in the past.

Many people think that what mainstream science says must be correct because scientists must know most everything. Just like when mainstream science said most of our DNA was junk & now we know that's not the case. I had my doubt too but now I realize it's absurd to believe in evolution from a single cell. Louis Pasteur already showed that spontaneous generation or chemical evolution is impossible. The probability is 1 in 10^40,000. 1 in a number with 40,000 zeros after it! Crick was so desperate for an alternative idea for the origin of life that he believed in panspermia ... which doesn't really solve the problem :doh: I'm surprised that God took 6 days to create, considering he probably could have done it in a second. Evolution is an ideology based on no proof. The only thing that is heralded as evidence is genetic similarities & fossils. There's no hard empirical data. I read the book "In Six Days". It was an interesting read.

I think the majority of Christians who believe in evolution doesnt believe that life spontaneously happened. I believe God directed or allowed some creatures to evolve and others he formed just the way they are now. I also think evolution has more science behind it than the "New Earth" belief.
 
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LoricaLady

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Are you purposefully trying not to understand what these posters are saying? My goodness...

Wow. You've got "seeing eyes." Howzabout YOU answering the Qs I posed to them. I notice you are evading them too. Answer those Qs. Enlgihten me. Your comment, above, says abosllutely nothing.
 
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LoricaLady

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Christians who believe in evolution just believe that intelligent design, meaning God in my case, directed the evolution.
So an intelligent, proactive Diety just lets things happen by accident and this is what you call "directing" things? That is cognitive disonance, friend. There is no part in the theory of evolution that leaves any room whatsoever for anything other than random, random, processes of nature. You should know that. It is amazing how people try to defend evoltuion and they don't even really understand what it is saying.

You don't have to believe in undidrected evolution. It is all pure bunk. Notice the people above who, when asked logical, science based Qs, refuse to answer them. Can you answer them? No, you never can using evolutionary theory because evolutionaory theory is pure anti science, pseudo science that flies in the face of empirical evidence. Move up from "Plausible...we don't have to have any proof....We don't have to answer your Qs...." to actual concrete data that shows evolution is impossible.
 
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