Both Evolution and Christianity?

seekingsister

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What makes you think we aren't studying science? One of my twins is an avid scientist, and it's his favorite subject.

There are multitudes of science that has nothing to do with evolution, for one thing. For another, there is ample evidence that evolution is inaccurate, if not downright false. Lastly, I specifically said we learn what evolution is. We just do not acknowledge it as truth.

Yes avid scientist in home school. Not studying at Georgia Tech, is it?

I have several scientists who are Christians in the family, they have the same views I do. God made the world, how he did it doesn't matter. I have never met someone who lost their faith because of high school biology anyway.
 
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seekingsister

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This post is full of lies. How has anything outside the word been proved to be correct? are we mixing into our beliefs what the secular scientists say?

Which part of my post is a lie?

1. The Bible is not a science book
2. What my pastor told me
3. Galileo and others charged with heresy for their astronomical studies

Please let me know how any of these points is a lie.

I came to share my beliefs as a fellow Christian, please do not insult me when disagreeing.
 
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Assyrian

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One of the reasons I home school. I teach my kids that a lot of people believe it took millions of years for all this to form. Then I teach them the truth.

All the testing, the dating - the theories behind the C-14 dating and all - it's all so flawed and assumes so much that it's nearly useless.
Decades ago Carbon 14 dating relied on the C14 level in the atmosphere in the past being reasonably constant. This was as you say, an assumption. Since then we have been able to test C14 dates against tree rings and against varves, annual sediment layers at the bottom of lakes. It was found that the C14 dates were not exact, but close.

Radiometric Dating

delta14c.gif


c14FairbQSR05.gif

What is really useful about this is that it now allows us to calibrate C14 dating with precise tree ring and varve dates.

Rocks formed by the Mt. St. Helen eruption carbon dated to hundreds thousands of years old. Pieces of a living snail's shell dated to 12,000 years old. It's ridiculous.
Of course C14 dating being based on the C12/14 ration in the atmosphere, it only work with samples that got their C14 from the atmosphere: wood, roots, animals and people that ate plants that got this C14 from the atmosphere. C14 levels in rivers and seas are completely different with a lot of the CO2 coming from dissolved limestone or the vast reservoirs of old CO2 in the seas. Creationist websites and books like to talk about living snails and that have been dated to thousands of years old. But when you examine the claim they are aquatic snails. You get the same sort of claim made about modern seals showing old carbon dates, of course they get their carbon from a diet of fish.

Rock from a volcano needs to be prepared carefully if you want to date it accurately. Lava is not a pure liquid during an eruption but contains solid particles, bits of rock from the sides of the magma chamber and crystals with a high melting point that crystalise deep underground at temperatures and pressures where the rest of the magma is still liquid. As a result they can form long before an eruption brings them to the surface and will give older dates because they are older. Geologists need to remove carefully these inclusions if they want to date the eruption. If you want to get an anomalously old date on the other hand, just send samples for testing that haven't been purified.
 
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Soothfish

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What makes you think we aren't studying science? One of my twins is an avid scientist, and it's his favorite subject.

There are multitudes of science that has nothing to do with evolution, for one thing. For another, there is ample evidence that evolution is inaccurate, if not downright false. Lastly, I specifically said we learn what evolution is. We just do not acknowledge it as truth.

It's ok if you believe that but keep in mind that you are making a far bigger claim than you may realize.

If you want to argue against precambrian RNA synthesis then go right ahead. That's technically not even part of evolution. You could possibly win that argument with only a cursory knowledge of molecular biology and chemistry.

If you want to argue against phylogenetics and radiometric dating....get ready. If you try to argue with a researcher about this, you WILL be told many things about it that you didn't know before. It will be very embarrassing for you.

It may be true that we can't prove science history but saying it is an 'inaccurate' is a very steep claim. You will need to have knowledge of an unbelievably massive body of data to argue that claim...or someone will dismiss it with what you don't know.

I've seen this happen to many Christians.
 
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stormdancer0

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Because Creationists almost universally have no idea how science actually operates...




...And because they evince total ignorance of the state of the field.



Sadly, I don't see much evidence that creationists do.
WOW, That's a bit of an exaggeration. I have several degrees and extensive scientific knowledge and experience, both lab and research (though honestly, I prefer the research).

Most people that I have met who believe the same way I do have done research and can support their beliefs. Meanwhile, most evolutionary scientists, once they are argued into a corner, can only scoff at the idea of a God and roll their eyes, rather than offer additional proof.

At least that's my experience.
 
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stormdancer0

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Yes avid scientist in home school. Not studying at Georgia Tech, is it?

I have several scientists who are Christians in the family, they have the same views I do. God made the world, how he did it doesn't matter. I have never met someone who lost their faith because of high school biology anyway.
I've met many people who have had their faith shaken, and a few who have walked away from their faith, because of the so-called "facts" of evolution being taught from elementary school all the way up through college.

And at 8 years old, my son has a little ways to go before he decides on a college. Fortunately, you don't have to be a certain age to enjoy science.
 
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stormdancer0

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Decades ago Carbon 14 dating relied on the C14 level in the atmosphere in the past being reasonably constant. This was as you say, an assumption. Since then we have been able to test C14 dates against tree rings and against varves, annual sediment layers at the bottom of lakes. It was found that the C14 dates were not exact, but close.

Radiometric Dating

delta14c.gif


c14FairbQSR05.gif

What is really useful about this is that it now allows us to calibrate C14 dating with precise tree ring and varve dates.

Of course C14 dating being based on the C12/14 ration in the atmosphere, it only work with samples that got their C14 from the atmosphere: wood, roots, animals and people that ate plants that got this C14 from the atmosphere. C14 levels in rivers and seas are completely different with a lot of the CO2 coming from dissolved limestone or the vast reservoirs of old CO2 in the seas. Creationist websites and books like to talk about living snails and that have been dated to thousands of years old. But when you examine the claim they are aquatic snails. You get the same sort of claim made about modern seals showing old carbon dates, of course they get their carbon from a diet of fish.

Rock from a volcano needs to be prepared carefully if you want to date it accurately. Lava is not a pure liquid during an eruption but contains solid particles, bits of rock from the sides of the magma chamber and crystals with a high melting point that crystalise deep underground at temperatures and pressures where the rest of the magma is still liquid. As a result they can form long before an eruption brings them to the surface and will give older dates because they are older. Geologists need to remove carefully these inclusions if they want to date the eruption. If you want to get an anomalously old date on the other hand, just send samples for testing that haven't been purified.
Cool stuff. It's been a while since I've looked into this stuff, so I may need to re-research and see what's been happening. Thanks for the info - do you have a site where I can look at this research?

Also, soothfish wrote:
If you want to argue against phylogenetics and radiometric dating....get ready. If you try to argue with a researcher about this, you WILL be told many things about it that you didn't know before. It will be very embarrassing for you.
There is nothing embarrassing about being taught something new. If I'm wrong, I don't have a problem about being corrected, especially about areas of science I am not as familiar in. Phylogenetics is an interesting topic, but I just can't seem to figure out how mutations can create new DNA information. It's an area I've looked into, but every explanation sounds like double talk and circular reasoning.
 
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Assyrian

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Cool stuff. It's been a while since I've looked into this stuff, so I may need to re-research and see what's been happening. Thanks for the info - do you have a site where I can look at this research?
You could look at Radiometric Dating which is an overview of the different dating techniques including Carbon 14. Or you could have a look at PE-04 A 40000 year varve chronology from Japan

Also, soothfish wrote:
There is nothing embarrassing about being taught something new. If I'm wrong, I don't have a problem about being corrected, especially about areas of science I am not as familiar in. Phylogenetics is an interesting topic, but I just can't seem to figure out how mutations can create new DNA information. It's an area I've looked into, but every explanation sounds like double talk and circular reasoning.
The problem is, Creationists use the term information to refer to DNA but to discuss it, Creationists need to come up with a definition of what information means in this context or how the amount of information can be measured. If you can't quantify the amount of information it is impossible to say whether information has increased or decreased. Without a definition of information, it is meaningless to ask if new information has been created.
 
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hedrick

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Read Darwins Black Box by Michael Behr, its a very good read on this topic

The problem with Darwin's Black Box is that there are plausible evolutionary pathways for at least some of the examples where he claims that's impossible.

I don't doubt Behe's sincerity when he wrote the book, but you need to review the responses.
 
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anglozaxon

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Personally I believe that there are things which are irreducibly complex, particularly without knowing what the end product should be, even when you look at the simplest of organisms they contain structures which are incredibly complex. If we found structures of similar complexity in a jungle clearing, we would have no problem in accepting that an unknown intelligence had put them there.

If we look at DNA, there is information there which allows the formation of proteins, if we leave aside the fact that there is a code there which allows for protein production and consider the mechanisms which allow for the unzipping of the the DNA helix, the formation of mRNA, tRNA then the ribosomes which allow the translation of RNA into a polypeptide chain and thats without even thinking about the control of the whole process. You can see the whole process is incredibly and arguably irreducibly complex.

I believe that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, not by random chance but by our Creator God.
 
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LoricaLady

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You can never reconcile evolution and the Bible. There are many reasons, but here is one that usually stops conversation on that topic: In Scriptures we see that the sun was created after the plants!

Yahushua, aka Jesus, makes statements that shows He believed in Adam & Eve, Noah, Soddom & Gomorrah, etc.

Evolution, once you really see through it, would be hilarious if it weren't for all of the damage it does to people's faith.

It is nothing more than a bunch of pseudo scientific sophistry founded on one logical fallacy after another (and since people don't know their logical fallacies from a hole in the ground they are easily deceived) piled on pure speculation posing as actual scientiic evidence.

Some examples: You were told fins turned into feet, feet into legs, scales into feathers. There are countless billions of fossils but all we ever see (except with the above mentioned b.s.) are 100% fins, feet, legs, scales, feathers, tetrapods, mammals, birds, etc. etc. etc.

You are told that a 60% incomplete primate fossil, namely Lucy, & Ida, a lemur, are your ancestors as absolute fact. Uh, 'scuse me but with any "transitional" fossil how do you know it's transitional? How can you tell it ever even had any descendants, much less that it had descendants that were significantly different in any way from themselves, much less that it led to some climb up Darwin's "Tree"? How do you tell a missing link from a never existed link? Well, it's impossible to know any such things, but that's not what you are told. You are told "transitions" are transitions as absolute facts!

Check out quotes by world famous evolutionist Colin Patterson. He was the head paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History & admitted in a letter to another evolutionist that "There is not 1 water tight case" for a single transitional form. His other quotes on evolution are even more damming.

Check out Don Patton, on Youtube, re fossils. There you'll see quotes from evoltuionists making it clear they have no evidence whatsoever. See also vids on evolutinoary fraud. It's still happening today. See also Themodyanmic Evidence For Creation & Amazing Creatures That Defy Evolution.

Think about this too. Use YOUR common sense. We're told the world is billions of years old. The sun & moon have to follow the laws of thermogynamics just like everyone else. We need them to be pretty much the way they are now in order for life to survive. Yet the moon is seen to be receding more & more from the earth. The sun gives off light and heat and is no way stable. There is no way either of those heavenly bodies would have been friendly to life millions, much less billions, of years ago. It's all, 100%, b.s.

Do your research. The truth is out there. The Word is true. 100%.

If you want to debate this with me, kindly "step outside" as this is not a debate forum.

I have debated at least 200 evo fans on Youtube. You can debate me,there, too, if you want to. See LoricalLady Youtube and look at comments under the vids of Ken Miller, a world famous evoevangelist. The posters always end up in these same categories: Insults, name calling, obscenities which contain no science or logic whatever. Or else when I ask logic and science based questions that evoltuion can't answer, they start evading me or doing what I call The Bible Bash Dance, which is a red herring, and & strawman logical fallacy. They never last long because if they refuse to answer my Qs, and they always, always do, then they hopefully start to see they are being deceived - but one way or another the "debate"is over.
 
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LoricaLady

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The problem with Darwin's Black Box is that there are plausible evolutionary pathways for at least some of the examples where he claims that's impossible.

I don't doubt Behe's sincerity when he wrote the book, but you need to review the responses.

"Plausible" and "probably...likely...must have...could have...see our computer simulation since we have no actual evidence..." is not science. It is exactly what evolutionary literature invariably contains if you keep searching through it with a fine comb - or sometimes right up front. But it's not science. It's dataless speculation presented as scientific evidence, which is all evoltution ever is - at best. (At worst it's fraud.) In other words, it's pseudo science. Real science deals with what is testable, observable and hopefully even repeatable. "Plausible..." is none of those.

No where do we see evolution happening, repeating. Fish stay fish, dogs stay dogs, cows stay cows. They'll tell you "Look, new species of this and that!" But 200 species of bees, for ex., are still...bees. They bombard 1000s of generations of fruit flies to get evoltuion but all they get are deformed bugs that are all, 100%, still fruit flies. They tell you that "nylon eating bacteria" are evolving, but they aren't. They are still...bacteria! They haven't even changed their species. They go back to their regular eating habits when placed in normal ponds.

They tell you Tiktaalik was a transition from fish to tetrapod. Conveniently, it's missing it's back end. But if you check it out, the fish is a FISH, 100% a lobe finned fish. By magical thinking they act like they know if it even reproduced, that it reproduced things that turned into tetrpods all based on...any evidence whatsoever? No, based on "plausible...might have...must have..." That's the best they've got and they call it evidence & science. What a sad joke.

Check out the Melbourne Museum's "replica" of Tiktaalik & compare that to the true fossil. As I said, it's convenient that the back end of the fossil is missing, because they get to add in, based on nothing even seen in the fossils or nature, back fin/legs type things suitable for aiding in a climb to land. Notice that the fossil's fins are small & show no musculature as fossils can show. But the replica has huge, muscular fins suitable for Tik's amazing climb onto land. There is also a tilted snout, presumably for sniffing air, on the replica, but no such thing on the fossil. This is how they frequently deceive people visually and they do the same things with words.

As I told another poster, if you want to debate this why not "step outside" and meet me at LoricaLady Youtube. See my comments under vids by the world famous evoevangelist Ken Miller. Notice how no one will answer my logic and science based Qs. But! Maybe you can answer those Qs. Why not give it a try?
 
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hedrick

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Behe's concept of irreducible complexity is that there were some structures so complex that they couldn't be evolved. The existence of a plausible path means that it is not impossible for them to have evolved. You don't have to prove that that path was actually used.

The other parts of your post are better answered by other people.
 
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LoricaLady

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Behe's concept of irreducible complexity is that there were some structures so complex that they couldn't be evolved. The existence of a plausible path means that it is not impossible for them to have evolved. You don't have to prove that that path was actually used.

The other parts of your post are better answered by other people.
"Plausible path...you don't have to pove that the path was actually used." No, in evolution you don't have to prove anything. But in real science you need something observable, some evidence. You will never give any ev-i-dence for "plausible pathways" because there is none. "You don't have to prove anything" is pseudo scientific thinking and a cop out, frankly.

Again, I would prefer to debate this elsewhere, but I'll ask you some Qs. Ken Miller & other evoevangelists say that because some parts of the bacterial flagellum have "dual purpose" that somehow that shows they evolved from simpler forms. But...as usual there is absolutely zero evidence for that. They also point to simpler bacterial forms and say the flagellum "must have...could have..might have..." evolved from them. Those other, simpler forms, are doing different jobs and ther is zip evidence they ever were, or ever will be, anything that what we see today. Or if there is, what is it?

If they want to show the bacterial flagellum isn't irreducibly complex all they have to do is remove one of its parts and see if it does its jobs. But, no they don't want to do that! They want to theorize about things that happened "millions of years ago" and say there are "plausible evolutionary pathways" and that should satisfy you because "they don't have to prove anything."

Let's move a little higher up on the flaggelum. Look at the whip and the motor below that moves it. There is a beautiful ex. of irreducible complexity (though all of life is i.c. from the cell on up - this is just a simple example.)
Now, please answer the followng !Qs. Please do not evade them.

What "dual purpose" could either the whip or motor have than what is seen now? Why and how would evolution hold them in "limbo" for eons while they are "evolving" since neither of them has the slightest use (or tell me what evidence you have that they ever did or could) without the other and since neither of them can function unless the other is fully complete and fully in place? Convince me with scientific data and logic that I'm not seeing a perfect example of irreducible complexity.

Again, please don't evade the Qs, but answer them.
And please answer them with logic and scientific data, not "plausible pathways....don't have to prove anything."
 
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Assyrian

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"Plausible path...you don't have to pove that the path was actually used." No, in evolution you don't have to prove anything.
You need to understand the nature of Behe's argument before you can say if it has been disproved or not. Behe tried to disprove evolution by showing was there is no possible pathway for the flagellum to evolve, and if there was no way for it to evolve it couldn't possibly have evolved. If his argument is based on there being no possible pathway, then showing a pathway pulls the rug out from under his argument. You don't have to prove that this was the pathway the flagellum took, you just have to show that there are pathways, that the flagellum isn't irreducibly complex, and his argument falls apart.
 
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Ttery

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I Believe in Evolution and God! Now don't get me wrong; I never said I believe in The Big Bang. Evolution has nothing to do with The Big Bang Theory other than the fact that Evolution is the Basis of The Big Bang Theory. Evolution and The Big Bang Theory are two completely different things, although they coincide in some aspects. You see, evolution influences the form and behavior of organisms to better suit their habit. Evolution happens when there is a change in the environment and the species or race has to adapt to it--thus can evolve into a distinctly new species. Many people have the wrong idea of Evolution; immediately thinking of The Big Bang Theory. I suggest you do more research.

And no, I don't believe we evolved from apes.
 
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LoricaLady

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You need to understand the nature of Behe's argument before you can say if it has been disproved or not. Behe tried to disprove evolution by showing was there is no possible pathway for the flagellum to evolve, and if there was no way for it to evolve it couldn't possibly have evolved. If his argument is based on there being no possible pathway, then showing a pathway pulls the rug out from under his argument. You don't have to prove that this was the pathway the flagellum took, you just have to show that there are pathways, that the flagellum isn't irreducibly complex, and his argument falls apart.
I understand Behe's argument quite well. As I have already said, all you have to do is take out one part of the flagellum. It it still does it's jobs, it's not irreducibly complex. Now that would be using real science, real data, to get real evidence. But, alas! Evolutinoists prefer to dwell in the land of millioins of unseen, unobservable & unverifiable years ago where they paint fanciful picture about what, in their humble opinions, is "possible."

Like the fellow above you feel words like "no possible way..." and "plausbile pathway..." are something other than purely conjecturall. However, they are based on no data, only on, uh...faaaaaith....therefore they are not part of real science. Don't tell me there is a "possible" way. Describe it. Give evidence it ever did happen. But, alas, there is no such evidence which is typical of evolution, 100% typical. If you want to believe, "Well, it all happened so long ago, that gosh, we just don't have any real evidence," keep your faith but don't call it science.

I challenge you also, as I did the poster above, to answer the Qs about how the bacterial flagellum's whip and motor could have evolved separately and have been any use whatsoever to the "bug" until both parts were complete, connected, and fully functioing as the irreducibly complex unit that they are.

Do you remembe 5th grade science? There you learned that an hypothesis-only ain't science. Have an hypothesis,say "It's possible...it's plausible...it's even probable...." but if you have no data to support it, and if you call the hypothesis, your conjecture, your dataless speculation "evidence", what you have is not science, but pseudo science, or you could call it...evolutionaory b.s.

Notice you have evaded addressing the Qs I already left, before.. If you understand Behe's arguments so well, enlighten me. Show me you can answer those Qs and use real science - what is observable & testable - and logic to answer those and the ones in this post.. But you won't answer the Qs because evolution doesn't have any answers because...it's based on faith presented as science.

I see your faith. Show me your facts.
 
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PrayUK

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Hmm... this seems to be a hot topic tonight.
Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
One thing I've learned in this present age is that language is important. Unfortunately, I've also noticed that the same word can mean different things to different people depending on the belief system and their underlying agenda. When "evening" and "morning," and a number (first) in this case, are used in the Hebrew language the period of time referred to is a 24-hour day. Thus getting rid of those who believe that there was some millions of years period of time between the days. We are talking about 6 literal 24-hour days. What all this comes down to is a point of Faith and sin.
The same thing everything else in the universe comes down to.
If I hit an evolutionist's car with my car and there is no one around to see it, and I decide to leave the scene (which I wouldn't do without at least leaving my information for them), there might not be enough evidence to convict me of anything. But if an eye witness saw me hit them and wrote down my license plate I would be in big trouble. One point of a scientific hypothesis is that it must be reproducible. No evolutionist can reproduce the events of creation, on the other hand we can't either, except... Our Eye Witness. God is the only person who actually was there, and gave His testimony personally to Moses who wrote it down in Genesis, most likely verifying the millenia of oral tradition passed down from Adam. So what can we look at here?
True irreducible complexity, testimony from evolutionists that given an infinite amount of time DNA/RNA could not have come about by chance, no presence of transitional forms in the fossil record, the loss of mass in the sun making it too hot for life to have comfortably existed a million years ago let alone a billion. What else do we have here?
The very first sin was Pride. The devil wanted God's job because he believed his own press. He felt he should get to do whatever he wanted, run his own plan, because honestly he probably thought he could do it better. Evolution is a religion. It is a worshiping of a religion whereby the "intellect" of man can no longer allow for the belief in a primitive God. Where man can do what he wants because he believes he can run his life better than God can anyway. In a world where science is Proving the Bible more and more, evolution is running out of places to stand. It does take more Faith to believe in a system with no observable proofs than say to believe that nearly or all of the places mentioned in the Bible have been found. It is only a matter of time before science proves even more of what God said to be true. Honestly, instead of talking about millions of years, we need to talk about 70.
That's about the amount of time that people have to make a decision about what's really important in life. You can call God a fantasy of some primitive uneducated mind, as long as you want, all the way up until you meet Him face-to-face and come to the reality that what you thought was real was nothing more than a house of cards. Instead of picking up Richard Dawkins latest book, how about googling John in the Bible and find out who this Jesus was and make an educated choice to follow Him.

in all Sincere Love,

PrayUK
 
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