A Catholic's UNDERSTANDING of Purgatory ... straight up ...

[Albion]

I can't help it, but your words remind me of this verse: "Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word." (St. John 8:43, DRB)

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word." (St. John 8:43, NAB)

Those who refuse to listen to the Words of Jesus via the Church (founded by Christ) show themselves (to the Church anyway) that they are led by the spirit of error and deceit. (see 1 St. John 4:6)

So...you really don't know of any verses that point to anything that amounts to the Catholic idea of Purgatory. I'd agree with that.

 

[AHJE]

So...you really don't know of any verses that point to anything that amounts to the Catholic idea of Purgatory. I'd agree with that.

Sure I do, ... take Rev. 21:27 for starters. The Word of God in Sacred Writing tells us that NOTHING IMPURE CAN ENTER HEAVEN. One must be perfectly PURGED before entering the Kingdom. If one who is SAVED is not perfectly PURGED at the moment of death then, ... well, you know the rest (line it up with the Word of God) ...

Praised be Jesus Christ.

 

[Albion]

Sure I do, ... take Rev. 21:27 for starters. The Word of God in Sacred Writing tells us that NOTHING IMPURE CAN ENTER HEAVEN.

In no way does that define or describe Purgatory. And it doesn't even justify Purgatory because, as the rest of us believe, Christ Our Lord took our sins upon himself and paid the price for them on the cross, purifying/purging us from all the consequences of our sin.

 

[AHJE]

In no way does that define or describe Purgatory. And it doesn't even justify Purgatory because, as the rest of us believe, Christ Our Lord took our sins upon himself and paid the price for them on the cross, purifying/purging us from all the consequences of our sin.

So are you saying that everyone who is Baptized into Christ and BORN AGAIN remains and perseveres in their Baptismal Innocence and their garment remains ALWAYS dazzling white without any stain of post-baptismal sin?

 

[Albion]

So are you saying that everyone who is Baptized into Christ and BORN AGAIN remains and perseveres in their Baptismal Innocence and their garment remains ALWAYS dazzling white without any stain of post-baptismal sin?

No, I'm saying that Christ died for our sins. That constitutes purifying or purging us from the guilt of sin. There is no logical need for a do-over in some theoretical state of the afterlife.

 

[AHJE]

No, I'm saying that Christ died for our sins.

True. Absolutely true. ... How many times did Christ die for our sins?

And how many Baptisms are proclaimed in Ephesians chapter 4?

That constitutes purifying or purging us from the guilt of sin.

Indeed. ... How is this purgation applied to you and me in our individual lives? By what means do you and I share in the fruits (effects) of the Redemption? In the here and now?

There is no logical need for a do-over in some theoretical state of the afterlife.

Do-over? ... of what?
And what about ... in this life?

What does a Baptized/Born Again person DO after committing serious sin after Baptism/Regeneration?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was just going to note that both of these, if done with full knowledge and complete consent, are mortal sins according to Catholic theology. A better comparison might be stealing a car vs. stealing a candy bar.

So, stealing a car is a mortal sin because a car costs a lot more than a candy bar, but a candy bar is not significant if stolen from a small child who values it more than the owner of a fleet of cars would value one of his cars?

Is stealing a watch a mortal or a venial sin?

 

[Albion]

Indeed....By what means do you and I share in the fruits (effects) of the Redemption? In the here and now?

"Sharing in the fruits of Redemption" sounds to me like you feel the need to skirt the issue. Christ's sacrifice paid the price for our sins. That being so, Purgatory as a theory is really superfluous.

Do-over ... of what?

Having been purged (which you agree to) by Christ's sacrifice, you propose that we need to by purged a second time--in a Purgagory.

What does a Baptized/Born Again person DO after committing serious sin after Baptism/Regeneration?

Repents of having transgressed against God.

 

[AHJE]

"Sharing in the fruits of Redemption" sounds to me like you feel the need to skirt the issue.

Why is that? What about the "fruits of Redemption" do you not understand? This is very important, ... how is the Redemption made applicable to you and me in the here and now? ? ?

Christ's sacrifice paid the price for our sins. That being so, Purgatory as a theory is really superfluous.

Seems like you are the one avoiding the issue of how that SACRIFICE is applied to you and me in the here and now (the fruits of Redemption).

Having been purged (which you agree to) by Christ's sacrifice,

VIA HOLY BAPTISM (ONE Baptism for the remission of sins).

you propose that we need to by purged a second time--in a Purgagory.

I am saying that post-baptismal sins MUST be dealt with. You are not giving due attention to the HOW of this matter, the MEANS by which Christ has PLANNED to deal with His People on the matter of post-baptismal sins. (And how this means is DISTINCT from Holy Baptism).

Repents of having transgressed against God.

Repentance before was AT Holy Baptism, ... where is REPENTANCE after Holy Baptism? What MEANS has Jesus given His Church to RETURN to the Incarnate Lord?

God bless you.

 

[Albion]

Why is that? What about the "fruits of Redemption" do you not understand?

It's obviously a very general comment. "Fruits" can refer to a wide variety of benefits, and we only "share" in them--a quite imprecise description of what is accomplished. And that's not all.

Seems like you are the one avoiding the issue of how that SACRIFICE is applied to you and me in the here and now (the fruits of Redemption).

I don't think so. At least I was straightforward. Christ paid the price for our sins. There is, therefore, no logic to Purgatory, in addition to it being foreign to Scripture.

But more important, you haven't identified any Scriptural basis for the belief, so that about sums up the matter.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What does a Baptized/Born Again person DO after committing serious sin after Baptism/Regeneration?

What is "serious" sin? What sin does God not take seriously?

Another poster has set some parameters for me by telling me that one type of stealing is not serious, but another type is serious. IOW, the commandment, "Thou shalt not steal" applies only to certain types of theft.

I will ask you the same question I posed to the earlier poster, which is, Is stealing a watch a serious sin or not?

 

[Albion]

What is "serious" sin? What sin does God not take seriously?

Another poster has set some parameters for me by telling me that one type of stealing is not serious, but another type is serious. IOW, the commandment, "Thou shalt not steal" applies only to certain types of theft.

I will ask you the same question I posed to the earlier poster, which is, Is stealing a watch a serious sin or not?

According to what I remember being taught in Catholic religion classes, it's not a sin if you steal from someone who doesn't miss it, who doesn't need it, or you yourself don't think it's a sin (which, given the relativistic theology of the modern RCC on social matters, would let almost everyone off the hook).

 

[AHJE]

It's obviously a very general comment. "Fruits" can refer to a wide variety of benefits, and we only "share" in them--a quite imprecise description of what is accomplished. And that's not all.

The FRUITS OF REDEMPTION are really the Effects of Redemption. Simple.
The fruits of a tree are the effects of the tree. Cause and Effect.
The Passion of Christ is the Cause or Source of our Salvation.
The Fruits of that Passion is the Effect, how that salvation reaches us in the here and now. (How it is applied to us, how it is worked out in our lives).

I don't think so. At least I was straightforward. Christ paid the price for our sins. There is, therefore, no logic to Purgatory, in addition to it being foreign to Scripture.

This statement completely ignores the reality of post-baptismal sin. And that is foreign to Sacred Writing. While Purgatory (or the need for TOTAL Purgation/Purification in order to enter Heaven) is indeed pointed at by Rev. 21:27.

But more important, you haven't identified any Scriptural basis for the belief, so that about sums up the matter.

Rev. 21:27 suffices to show that there must be some process of Purification between the moment of death and ENTRY into eternal beatitude. You will not convince me or anyone here that EVERY SINGLE saved person dies PERFECTLY PURIFIED at the moment of death.

So the question remains: How is this saved person purified before making his ENTRY into the Kingdom above?

Peace be with you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

According to what I remember being taught in Catholic religion classes, it's not a sin if you steal from someone who doesn't miss it, who doesn't need it, or you yourself don't think it's a sin (which, given the relativistic theology of the modern RCC on social matters, would let almost everyone off the hook).

Yes, it is a very slippery slope when people decide that they are the determinant of sin.

 

[AHJE]

Yes, it is a very slippery slope when people decide that they are the determinant of sin.

The existence of Mortal sin and sins that are NOT mortal is revealed in Sacred Writing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The existence of Mortal sin and sins that are NOT mortal is revealed in Sacred Writing.

Au contraire, my friend. It exists in Sacred Tradition in the Catholic Church, but the term "Mortal sin" is not found anywhere in the Bible (which I assume you meant by your term, "Sacred Writing".

Moreover, nowhere in any sacred writing are these alleged non-mortal sins defined in any detail whatsoever. Thus, humans have assigned themselves the task of determining what is and what is not "serious" sin.

Do you think God views some, but not all, sin as serious?

 

[Albion]

The FRUITS OF REDEMPTION are really the Effects of Redemption. Simple.[/quotie]

All right then. Let's agree on that. The main fruit of Redemption, of the Cross is salvation, the forgiveness of our sins. Purgatory, in that case, is useless as well as unscriptural.

This statement completely ignores the reality of post-baptismal sin.

No it doesn't. Christ didn't just die for the sins of those who had lived up to that point or for some of our sins. He died in order to effect a reconciliation between God and ourselves, period.

Rev. 21:27 suffices to show that there must be some process of Purification between the moment of death and ENTRY into eternal beatitude. You will not convince me or anyone here that EVERY SINGLE saved person dies PERFECTLY PURIFIED at the moment of death.

Oh, I'm sure you can't be dissuaded from your beliefs, but I can show you where you are wrong. In fact, your denial of the sacrifice of the Cross right here does all the work for me.

Cheers.

 

[Albion]

The FRUITS OF REDEMPTION are really the Effects of Redemption. Simple.

All right then. Let's agree on that. The main fruit of Redemption, of the Cross, is salvation, the forgiveness of our sins. Purgatory, in that case, is useless as well as unscriptural.

This statement completely ignores the reality of post-baptismal sin.

No it doesn't. Christ didn't just die for the sins of those who had lived up to that point or for some of our sins. He died in order to effect a reconciliation between God and ourselves, period.

Rev. 21:27 suffices to show that there must be some process of Purification between the moment of death and ENTRY into eternal beatitude. You will not convince me or anyone here that EVERY SINGLE saved person dies PERFECTLY PURIFIED at the moment of death.

Oh, I'm sure you can't be dissuaded from your beliefs, but I can show you where you are wrong. In fact, your denial of the sacrifice of the Cross right here does all the work for me. But I'll still comment on Rev. 21:27 since you brought it up. What it says is that no unclean thing shall enter into blessedness, but as you've been shown we are NOT any longer unclean, thanks to Christ. You simply want to stipulate that we are still unclean after being redeemed. You have nothing to support that theory.

Are there then any people who actually are are unclean who are the subject of this verse? Of course. All those who have not accepted Christ as Lord and Savior have not availed themselves of the offer of forgiveness...and they will be denied heaven. That is what the verse speaks of--that the "liars" and those guilty of "abomination," i.e. the unrepentent and eternally lost, are denied heaven. There's nothing there about those who are already forgiven being denied heaven until they are scrubbed up some more, and Purgatory is explicitly NOT about those who are bound for hell, as you know.

 

[Tangible]

The way Purgatory has been explained to me is that the work of Christ was only sufficient to cancel the spiritual, eternal consequences of sin, i.e. Hell, but that it was not sufficient to cancel the temporal, earthly consequences of sin. Purgatory is therefore necessary to remove the remaining temporal consequences of sin before one is perfect and allowed to enter Heaven.

Is this view correct according to RCC teaching?

If so, please address the following concerns.

1. I will grant that we still suffer temporal consequences of sin while we are still living on earth, but why would temporal consequences follow us into life after earthly death?

2. Lutheran theology sees sin as bound to our flesh, as taught by Paul in Romans. Why would our fleshly sins not die with our sinful flesh?

3. Lutheran theology sees the Sacrament of the Altar, received in the body, as sanctification of the body. Does RCC Eucharistic theology have a similar position - and if so, why do we need further purifying after physical death?

4. What is the theological justification for the teaching that the work of Christ is insufficient to cover the all the consequences of sin, both eternal and temporal?

5. From an escatological standpoint, I've heard references to people spending hundreds of thousands of years, or even millions of years in Purgatory. Does this conflict with the teaching that on the last day, all humanity will be judged by Christ, the lost consigned to Hell and the saved to enter eternal life with Christ in the New Earth? What about the people who are still in Purgatory, will they have to continue to serve out their sentence for another 100K years (or whatever is left) or will they at that point be completely forgiven and perfected?

Thank you!

 

[ebia]

The way Purgatory has been explained to me is that the work of Christ was only sufficient to cancel the spiritual, eternal consequences of sin, i.e. Hell, but that it was not sufficient to cancel the temporal, earthly consequences of sin. Purgatory is therefore necessary to remove the remaining temporal consequences of sin before one is perfect and allowed to enter Heaven.

Is this view correct according to RCC teaching?

If so, please address the following concerns.

1. I will grant that we still suffer temporal consequences of sin while we are still living on earth, but why would temporal consequences follow us into life after earthly death?

2. Lutheran theology sees sin as bound to our flesh, as taught by Paul in Romans. Why would our fleshly sins not die with our sinful flesh?

3. Lutheran theology sees the Sacrament of the Altar, received in the body, as sanctification of the body. Does RCC Eucharistic theology have a similar position - and if so, why do we need further purifying after physical death?

4. What is the theological justification for the teaching that the work of Christ is insufficient to cover the all the consequences of sin, both eternal and temporal?

5. From an escatological standpoint, I've heard references to people spending hundreds of thousands of years, or even millions of years in Purgatory. Does this conflict with the teaching that on the last day, all humanity will be judged by Christ, the lost consigned to Hell and the saved to enter eternal life with Christ in the New Earth? What about the people who are still in Purgatory, will they have to continue to serve out their sentence for another 100K years (or whatever is left) or will they at that point be completely forgiven and perfected?

Thank you!

For up to date thinking on purgatory, can I suggest you read the current Pope's encyclical Spe Salvi.