WoF verses Non-WoF

[charityagape]

Yes, I agree. There are Biblical cases of leaders cursing those that oppose them. My question is, in the cases cited earlier in the thread:

Benny Hinn
Paul Crouch
Ken Copeland
Kenneth Hagin (threats of death)

is God behind them?


peace,
Simon

Joined late didnt read your examples. But basically I don't know and don't care. I'm not the minister allegedly cursing someone or the alleged victim being cursed. I have no part in a curse that may or may not have been delivered and may or may not have power behind it, I'm not God or God's policeman do I don't have to burden myself with individuals and there actions.

But on the hypothetical plane I am interested in delving into wether or not a person CAN curse another without cause and have that curse come to pass because of the power of Satan.

 

[charityagape]

The problem is, you haven't asked me a question that can be answered with a simple yes or no.

I think it was Simply Put who said recently something like: Here's another question that requires a YES or NO answer:
Have you stopped kissing your dog's butt?
Some questions cannot be answered how you want them to be answered.

Why can't you deduce my beliefs from my extensive answers? As a professor once said:

'I can explain it to you, but I can't comprehend it for you.'

Where are you trying to go with this anyway?
Then perhaps I can give you better answers.


peace,
Simon

Here is we're I am going. You were asked why you would spend so much time opposing preachers you disagreed with on forums and your answere seemed to be because they curse those that oppose them (and later that you were concerned not so much for yourself because you have the faith to stand against a curse, but you were concerned for others).

Stated that way it seems a noble goal ( if a bit like tilting at windmills ) to devote your life to discrediting those with the will and the power to go a out cursing people. Not devoting your time opposing them (and they could care less and not be effected less by your opposition) simply because you disagree with them but because of the very real threat they pose in their ability to curse innovent people
And have that curse come to pass.

A noble goal. That is why I asked. I wanted to know if you believed innocent people could be cursed by the power of Satan etc.

Because i don't believe that any of the ministers you mentioned or anyone anywhere can curse someone. Influence, sure, but everyone has influence and there are about a billion you could " opposing" that are more dangerous.

So while I respect your disagreement with WOF minister, no skin off my nose, sometimes I disagree with things I've heard too. Sometimes I disagree with my own Pastor (not thT I stand up and rant about it in service or go around talking about my disagreement to any open ear).

I just think its a freaking huge terrible waste of your valuable time of you or anyone spend big chunks of their life digging up any and all
"rocks " they can find to chunk at a person because they think they're harming people with their curses. Smh. Now if you told me that you simply enjoyed the debate, it keeps you on your toes and helps you understand more why you believe what you believe etc. that I'd understand.

But to think your somehow taking on a Goliath (WOF) to your David to protect the innocent, that's nuts.

 

[charityagape]

To clarify I don't believe a person can be cursed without cause. I do believ people can be cursed.

 

[hislegacy]

Yes, I agree. There are Biblical cases of leaders cursing those that oppose them. My question is, in the cases cited earlier in the thread:

Benny Hinn WHO IS NOT WORD OF FAITH
Paul Crouch. WHO IS NOT WORD OF FAITH
Ken Copeland WHICH ARE ACCUSATIONS FROM FIVE YEARS AGO THAT ARE STILL NOT PROVEN

Kenneth Hagin (threats of death) WHO WARNED OF CONSEQUENCES OF SIN, not threatened with death.

is God behind them?




peace,
Simon

Is God behind false witnessing?

 

[Simon Peter]

Here is we're I am going. You were asked why you would spend so much time opposing preachers you disagreed with on forums and your answere seemed to be because they curse those that oppose them (and later that you were concerned not so much for yourself because you have the faith to stand against a curse, but you were concerned for others).

Stated that way it seems a noble goal ( if a bit like tilting at windmills ) to devote your life to discrediting those with the will and the power to go a out cursing people. Not devoting your time opposing them (and they could care less and not be effected less by your opposition) simply because you disagree with them but because of the very real threat they pose in their ability to curse innovent people
And have that curse come to pass.

A noble goal. That is why I asked. I wanted to know if you believed innocent people could be cursed by the power of Satan etc.

Because i don't believe that any of the ministers you mentioned or anyone anywhere can curse someone. Influence, sure, but everyone has influence and there are about a billion you could " opposing" that are more dangerous.

So while I respect your disagreement with WOF minister, no skin off my nose, sometimes I disagree with things I've heard too. Sometimes I disagree with my own Pastor (not thT I stand up and rant about it in service or go around talking about my disagreement to any open ear).

I just think its a freaking huge terrible waste of your valuable time of you or anyone spend big chunks of their life digging up any and all
"rocks " they can find to chunk at a person because they think they're harming people with their curses. Smh. Now if you told me that you simply enjoyed the debate, it keeps you on your toes and helps you understand more why you believe what you believe etc. that I'd understand.

But to think your somehow taking on a Goliath (WOF) to your David to protect the innocent, that's nuts.

Wow...You've read an awful lot into some things I've said. I'll try to address a couple of them.


You think it's a 'freaking huge terrible waste of my valuable time... spending big chunks of my life digging up...'

I've been on CF for over 8 years, in that time I've barely amassed 1,900 posts. Compare this with your 7,000 posts in 7 years, or Pete's 16,000 posts in 7 years! Who's wasting their time more?


I've never mentioned David or Goliath, and I don't see WoF as Goliath or myself as David. I don't expect to knock WoF down, and I don't expect to be King. I think WoF will be in the world long after I'm gone. Call that a lack of faith if you like .

I do stand up for what I believe, and I have received PMs from people who have been blessed and impacted by things that I've posted. Individual people do matter.

peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Is God behind false witnessing?

Simply Put,

Can you respectfully cease your practice of changing my posts when you quote my posts. Which has me saying things I've not said.

I've been very careful to quote Hagin (for example) accurately word for word.

If you insist on continuing that practice, I might remind you that I could start to do the same. It might look like this:

My first Pastor began to fall when he became involved with Randall Terry and the Pro life movement. After I left, the church went from 2,200 people to 300 inside of two years and ended with him leaving the state after he had been arrested a number of times for protesting. NOTE: AFTER I LEFT

He moved to Washington DC and worked with Jay Seculow for a while and it was there that he changed. FOR THE BETTER

Brother Hagin never wrote one book in his life. WELL ACTUALLY HE WROTE SCORES OF BOOKS

Hope this helps you see the issue.

Thanks,
Simon

 

[hislegacy]

Sorry. Forgot to change the colors

 

[Yahu]

we KNOW that not EVERYTHING hagin sr. and copeland etc say is correct. but we wof still do recognize an anointed honorable teacher of the WORD when we see him.

I think you are missing the point I am making. A MESSAGE can be anointed, not the man. Follow the anointing on the individual message, not the man because he can be anointed sometimes and other times not.

Even a child can be under the anointing. If the message is from the Holy Spirit, it doesn't matter who the message is given through. If you disregard an anointed message because the speaker isn't a big name ministry and follow a big name minister when he isn't anointed, you have problems.

The same goes for a forum like this. Some of the messages, or even only parts of the message may be anointed. Learn to test the spirit behind any message.

The material I give may be part anointed, part my personal opinion, part error just like anyone else. So even if one part is in error, you don't through out all of their teaching.

If you put an individual on a pedestal it makes that individual a prime target for the enemy to lead them into error and they lead many astray or loose faith in Yah because a 'great man' fell into error.

Blind faith in anyone but Yeshua can lead to error.

 

[Yahu]

Joined late didnt read your examples. But basically I don't know and don't care. I'm not the minister allegedly cursing someone or the alleged victim being cursed. I have no part in a curse that may or may not have been delivered and may or may not have power behind it, I'm not God or God's policeman do I don't have to burden myself with individuals and there actions.

But on the hypothetical plane I am interested in delving into wether or not a person CAN curse another without cause and have that curse come to pass because of the power of Satan.

By my understanding, Yah does provide a hedge of protection on those that are following His instructions. The enemy must have grounds to get a curse to land. In my case, the coven could not get any death curses to land, I was not in any error that carried a death penalty so I was protected. They tried to get me to violate some law of Yah that would allow them to get a death curse through.

They could get minor curses to land like a financial curse. I don't know what error in my life allowed that through. It may have been pride in what I had acquired. I then lost everything I owned in a freak fire while my belongings were being shipped to my new location.

So the answer is maybe. It really depends on what error you have in your own life as to whether you have Yah's protection in that area.

 

[dkbwarrior]

These are three very different examples. The one of Hinn I disagree with totally, don't see any real support in scripture for that. But then Hinn has never really been WOF, in fact, used to be adamately anti-WOF, then softened his stance and became almost pro-WOF for awhile, then backpedaled again. He does hold many beliefs in common, as do many other groups, but that doesn't make him WOF.

The quote from Copeland wasn't him putting a curse on anyone, just a statement of fact that many who have opposed the work of God have had bad things happen that could well be a result of their opposition to the work of the Spirit. This is very well supported scripturally, and there are many examples in scripture of those that have come against the work of God paying a steep price for it in the flesh, in this natural world.

The quote from Hagin was of a prophetic word that God gave him to give to a specific individual. There is also much scriptural support for this in the Bible. Prophets often gave specific words to specific people about what was going to happen to them if they did not repent of specific deeds.

Peace...

I didn't say Copeland was putting a curse on anyone.

So in the cases of:

Benny Hinn
Paul Crouch
Ken Copeland
Kenneth Hagin (threats of death)

cursing Christians, you think they are wasting their time because all the Christians are fully protected?

Please show me which part of my post is a lie and I will humbly and apologetically retract it.

As I said in the above post, Hinn is not WOF, and Copeland and Hagin didn't curse anyone, at least not according to the quotes that you provided. You then said that you weren't saying they cursed anyone, and now you are saying that they were cursing poeple agian.

This is a false witness. Fact is, you don't know what you are saying. You just appear to want to accuse those that you disagree with as much and as loudly as you can, regardless of whether it is true or not, hoping that some of the dirt you are slinging may stick.

Your avatar is of Kenneth Copelands Home and airplane, and you spend inordinate amounts of time here obsessing over him and Hagin, and try to associate every bad deed by every other preacher to the WOF movement, or as a WOF practice, whether they have any connection to WOF or not. I would say that you are slighly obsessed, and not with the Spirit of God, that is for sure.

Peace...

 

[Simon Peter]

Sorry. Forgot to change the colors

The more acceptable format would be to but your responses after my quote, not within it.

You can break a quote up by copying and pasting the header:

quote=Simply Put;60728666

and then the end quote

/quote

(just add the brackets)


thanks, Simon

 

[charityagape]

Wow...You've read an awful lot into some things I've said. I'll try to address a couple of them.


You think it's a 'freaking huge terrible waste of my valuable time... spending big chunks of my life digging up...'

I've been on CF for over 8 years, in that time I've barely amassed 1,900 posts. Compare this with your 7,000 posts in 7 years, or Pete's 16,000 posts in 7 years! Who's wasting their time more?


......no im not wasting time. Im enjoying myself. Discussing for enjoyment. Im not worried about other ministers or threatened that people are being cursed by an extremely small percentage of ministers etc. i dont have any cuse here except to enjoy myself. Thats not a waste of time.....

I've never mentioned David or Goliath, and I don't see WoF as Goliath or myself as David. I don't expect to knock WoF down, and I don't expect to be King. I think WoF will be in the world long after I'm gone. Call that a lack of faith if you like .



....um, you do understnd that my mentioning of david and goliath was an anology and not a quote..... And its good to know you dont expect to knock wof down. That would be an exhausting and fruitless endeavor. So your purpose in accusing the brethren is....?


I do stand up for what I believe, and I have received PMs from people who have been blessed and impacted by things that I've posted. Individual people do matter.

peace,
Simon

Oh i see. Your purpose is to influence (after all is that not what impact means) people. Be careful of what you believe then. Because your influence over an individual is important. Because i do believe the individual is important. Just as Kenneth Copeland et al. Will be clled to account for their influence, so will you.

But the really great thing is i dont have to go around to the people you influence and trash talk you in an effort to diminish your influence. Thats not my job and its wont change their opinion of you. It would in fact unite them against me and solidify their support of you. So for me to "expose the truth" about you, whether it wasvtrue or not, would be counter productive to reducing your influence anyway.

But regardless its not my job to reduce anyone's influence. Im only responsible and accountable for my own.

Now if you simply enjoy trashing someone, and feel that its okay to do because theyre wrong, well thats your problem and its a bad one. But im sure that could not be your motive.

 

[Simon Peter]

As I said in the above post, Hinn is not WOF, and Copeland and Hagin didn't curse anyone, at least not according to the quotes that you provided. You then said that you weren't saying they cursed anyone, and now you are saying that they were cursing poeple agian.

This is a false witness.

Actually I did point out that Hagin's quotes only went as far as to threaten death. So by your standard you are also a false witness

But thank you for pointing out my error regarding Copeland. You are right I only have seen quotes where Copeland threatens death for people who criticise. I was in a hurry and answering multiple posts. I apologise. It was not my intent to say that Copeland had uttered actual curses.

Fact is, you don't know what you are saying. You just appear to want to accuse those that you disagree with as much and as loudly as you can, regardless of whether it is true or not, hoping that some of the dirt you are slinging may stick.

Your avatar is of Kenneth Copelands Home and airplane, and you spend inordinate amounts of time here obsessing over Him and Hagin, and try to associate every bad deed by every other preacher to the WOF movement, or as a WOF practice, whether they have any connection to WOF or not. I would say that you are slighly obsessed, and not with the Spirit of God, that is for sure.

I thought you condemned the practice of judging people?

I don't start the vast majority of threads about WoF and the problems with WoF. Like this thread for example. It's quite rare for me to start a thread about WoF actually.

peace,
Simon

 

[dkbwarrior]

But thank you for pointing out my error regarding Copeland. You are right I only have seen quotes where Copeland threatens death for people who criticise. I was in a hurry and answering multiple posts. I apologise. It was not my intent to say that Copeland had uttered actual curses.

Copeland didn't threaten anyone either. He simply made a statement of fact, at least according to your own quote of Him. A statement of fact by the way that is found in several places in the Bible itself. That those who oppose the work of God often find themselves paying for it through sickness and death.

Peace...

 

[hislegacy]

So in the cases of:

Benny Hinn
Paul Crouch
Ken Copeland
Kenneth Hagin (threats of death)

cursing Christians, you think they are wasting their time because all the Christians are fully protected?

peace,
Simon

Yes, I agree. There are Biblical cases of leaders cursing those that oppose them. My question is, in the cases cited earlier in the thread:

Benny Hinn
Paul Crouch
Ken Copeland
Kenneth Hagin (threats of death)

is God behind them?


peace,
Simon

The more acceptable format would be to but your responses after my quote, not within it.

You can break a quote up by copying and pasting the header:

quote=Simply Put;60728666

and then the end quote

/quote

(just add the brackets)


thanks, Simon

you are not worth the time and effort

 

[Simon Peter]

Oh i see. Your purpose is to influence (after all is that not what impact means) people. Be careful of what you believe then. Because your influence over an individual is important. Because i do believe the individual is important. Just as Kenneth Copeland et al. Will be clled to account for their influence, so will you.

But the really great thing is i dont have to go around to the people you influence and trash talk you in an effort to diminish your influence. Thats not my job and its wont change their opinion of you. It would in fact unite them against me and solidify their support of you. So for me to "expose the truth" about you, whether it wasvtrue or not, would be counter productive to reducing your influence anyway.

But regardless its not my job to reduce anyone's influence. Im only responsible and accountable for my own.

Now if you simply enjoy trashing someone, and feel that its okay to do because theyre wrong, well thats your problem and its a bad one. But im sure that could not be your motive.

First of all, do you realise that you have quoted me saying about 100 words that I did not say? Adding words to my quotes is becoming a little bit too common today.

As for your criticism of me, I defend your right to criticise me, my opinions, doctrine and what I teach. I'm glad we live in countries where we are able to freely express our opinions and disagree with what's taught.

peace,
Simon

 

[charityagape]

Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow,
an undeserved curse will not land on its intended victim.[bless and do not curse]
Proverbs 26:2


Maybe we should just let God's word be the final authority on who can curse who.

 

[Simon Peter]

you are not worth the time and effort

I think you're worth the effort.
I believe God loves you.

 

[charityagape]

First of all, do you realise that you have quoted me saying about 100 words that I did not say? Adding words to my quotes is becoming a little bit too common today.

As for your criticism of me, I defend your right to criticise me, my opinions, doctrine and what I teach. I'm glad we live in countries where we are able to freely express our opinions and disagree with what's taught.

peace,
Simon

Lol. I quoted the entire box of my words and your words. One it provides context and two as someone said its not worth it to cut out and format my quote in a way that is most pleasing to you. Talk about nit picking.

We do live in a country where we have that right. And that's good. However, I'm not trying to critic your doctrine or what you teach. That's not my job. I do criticize your right to think that it's your job to critic the doctrines and teachings of others. And yes we both have that right.

 

[Simon Peter]

Copeland didn't threaten anyone either. He simply made a statement of fact, at least according to your own quote of Him. A statement of fact by the way that is found in several places in the Bible itself. That those who oppose the work of God often find themselves paying for it through sickness and death.

Personally, I think you'd have to be in serious denial to think Copeland wasn't making a threat. But I'll tell you what. I'll quote Copeland again, and let people make up their own mind if it's a threat to not criticise:

“Several people that I know had criticized and called that Faith bunch out of Tulsa a cult. And some of ‘em are dead right today in an early grave because of it, and there’s more than one of them got cancer.”

(Kenneth Copeland)


peace,
Simon