Greed

[NightHawkeye]

NHE - are you aware that you're not posting any evidence?

You didn't ask me for evidence. I asked you for evidence.

You claimed that all those social programs were doing really great things, didn't you? I asked for evidence. Call me skeptical.

Doesn't the burden of proof belong on the one who is picking pockets ... er, umh, taxing ... I mean demanding charitable donations ... to do really good things.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Christian Reconstructionism/Dominionism made more mainstream through preaching of significant leaders who emerged from the Religious Right which became conflated with Evangelicalism and--subsequently--also made some inroads into some Mainline Protestant churches. Even where Rushdooneyism didn't leave a stronger mark, those influenced by Rushdooney and Schaeffer and those further influenced by those influenced by (at the very least, Schaeffer) created a massive ideological stronghold within influential sectors of an emerging Christian subculture in America that likely felt threatened by the counter-culture of the 1960s. A conflation of "traditional American nationalism" with a particular Christian cultural veneer helped make fertile soil for these ideas.

Throw in some influence of Prosperity theology where God's blessings are interpreted as health, wealth, success, and a better state in this world in some fashion or another; with the converse that a less-than-faithful life means the deprivation of such blessings and then expand this to cover the condition of a nation; add on to this a select quoting of some Old Testament to remind people that God judges the nations with heavy America-is-a-kind-of-Israel undertones to indicate America as a chosen/blessed nation with a righteous foundation which has (like Israel of old) fallen to the wayside because of the aforementioned counter-cultural elements seen as detrimental to the cultural comforts of a post-War America perceiving itself as good and Christian and now under attack by diabolical forces.

Well, it creates a cauldron of weirdness. And it's bubbling and frothing all over the place now.

-CryptoLutheran

QFT.

 

[Grizzly]

Don't worry, most of them already decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong in their opinion. Wouldn't be much different if they stop saying they believe in God, they'll just stop saying God agrees with them. In fact I don't know anyone who is only held back from being a murdering thieving rapist by their fear of God, even if they might pretend to when arguing for absolute morality.

That's an interesting observation. I believe you are most likely correct.

 

[Grizzly]

You didn't ask me for evidence. I asked you for evidence.

You claimed that all those social programs were doing really great things, didn't you? I asked for evidence. Call me skeptical.

Well, I did post evidence for the success of social security. But don't you think that before you advocate the removal of support for millions of people that you should have evidence on your side that the programs DON'T work? Otherwise you would be responsible for the increased misery of many. That would be the Christian thing to do, wouldn't it?

 

[Grizzly]

A conflation of "traditional American nationalism" with a particular Christian cultural veneer helped make fertile soil for these ideas.
-CryptoLutheran

I thought your entire post was excellent. I was particularly struck by the comment about the conflation of American Nationalism (or Exceptionalism) with Prosperity Theology. Conservative Christians in America have really combined their nationalism and their religious beliefs into a new religion where poor people are lazy slackers, the rich have paved themselves a highway to heaven (despite the direct warnings from Jesus about the difficulty of doing so), and Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are now the Word of God. It's been strange to watch the Christianity of the 60's and 70's turn into something so different.

 

[heymikey80]

What happens to the person who's not so lucky?

I already know what happens, and it's not pretty.

And the problem is, it has sucked the economy dry and has not got any better.

Medical issues are one thing; but it's been three years, and people are dropping off unemployment insurance in droves. You keep saying "it helps", and maybe it helps stop a few people in freefall (my personal experience is the exact opposite, though). But it doesn't help. It's solely a stopgap. And its cost is so dizzyingly high that it is damaging the country's ability to provide it, because it's damaging to the economy as a whole.

Y'wanna kill the goose? Don't expect more eggs.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Well, I did post evidence for the success of social security. But don't you think that before you advocate the removal of support for millions of people that you should have evidence on your side that the programs DON'T work? Otherwise you would be responsible for the increased misery of many. That would be the Christian thing to do, wouldn't it?

That is certainly a worthwhile question, Grizzly.

But, no. The Christian thing to do is to "teach a man to fish", rather than enslaving him as an indentured servant throughout his life ... ignorant, unskilled and living in squalor ... because of massive debt. That approach ends well only for those who own the debt. You do realize that debt equates with slavery, or servitude, don't you? Perhaps you don't ...

The Christian thing to do is to walk with a man two miles, if he asks you to go with him one mile. The Christian thing to do is to help a man with his burdens, not to simply throw him into a "safety net" to fend for himself among the scavengers who have taken up residence in that same "safety net" ... scavengers who pick his bones clean unless he becomes as one of them.

As I hope I already said, I'm all in favor of keeping what works ... I'm also in favor of fixing things when they are broken. Programs and policies which are failing either need to be rethought or discontinued altogether. Do you disagree?

WWII was won in a few short years. There's no reason failing programs can't be phased out in an even shorter time period. Whenever a program works well, then conclusive evidence will be available showing that. In some ways, social programs are little difference from businesses. It doesn't matter how much money gets thrown into a product if that product fails. Money is merely human effort. Human effort spent wisely can accomplish great things, but when spent poorly ... not so much.

 

[disciple2011]

Greed is not earning more than one needs.
Greed is wanting more than one earns.

Greed is the worship of wealth and is putting wealth before God, thus breaking the first great commandment.

And if you break the first you automatically break the second.

And that is obvious in the greedy.

 

[Umaro]

But, no. The Christian thing to do is to "teach a man to fish", rather than enslaving him as an indentured servant throughout his life ... ignorant, unskilled and living in squalor ... because of massive debt. That approach ends well only for those who own the debt. You do realize that debt equates with slavery, or servitude, don't you?

Yes NHE, this is what Christians proclaim. Loudly too, and often. But then us lowly heathens watch them proceed to do precisely not that.

They talk big about teaching the unskilled man to fish, and how the man who works will eat, but then don't share enough of the profits for that man to learn a skill or eat! Then they berate the government for trying to help! Who do you guys really think you're fooling here?

 

[rambot]

That is certainly a worthwhile question, Grizzly.

But, no. The Christian thing to do is to "teach a man to fish", rather than enslaving him as an indentured servant throughout his life ... ignorant, unskilled and living in squalor ... because of massive debt. That approach ends well only for those who own the debt. You do realize that debt equates with slavery, or servitude, don't you? Perhaps you don't ...

The Christian thing to do is to walk with a man two miles, if he asks you to go with him one mile. The Christian thing to do is to help a man with his burdens, not to simply throw him into a "safety net" to fend for himself among the scavengers who have taken up residence in that same "safety net" ... scavengers who pick his bones clean unless he becomes as one of them.

.

This is a nice post of plattitudes but it seems to rely on a lack of knowledge on how people are supported by government services

 

[NightHawkeye]

Yes NHE, this is what Christians proclaim. Loudly too, and often. But then us lowly heathens watch them proceed to do precisely not that.

Use discernment, Umaro. No doubt, you'll see what you want to see.

You're not stupid though, so why accuse all who call themselves Christian? I'll offer that I've never met a single Mormon who didn't embody most of the Christian virtues ... at least in their dealings with others ... and I've dealt with a number of Mormons in my life. I suppose the fact that their faith requires them to do missionary work for a couple of years when they're young has something to do with that. Mormons are hardly the only ones I would characterize this way though ... and not that I'm planning to convert, or anything, LOL.

They talk big about teaching the unskilled man to fish, and how the man who works will eat, but then don't share enough of the profits for that man to learn a skill or eat! Then they berate the government for trying to help! Who do you guys really think you're fooling here?

You'd have a lot more credibility if you cited specific examples of how awful Christians have been ... or how negligent. I'm guessing that maybe you lived in one of those socialist paradises which had a large number of ne'er do wells ...

Around here, charity still works. My church had a youth pastor when my daughters were younger who got the youth to volunteer with Habitat for Humanity. He lived for that ... still does, actually ... even before we had the 500 year flood. After the 500 year flood, much of the renovation came from charity. Don't tell me people aren't charitable. I can come up with local examples where charity came through when FEMA and big brother wouldn't. There are also plenty of reports about how government greatly interfered with fixing things ... all for the common good, I'm sure ... either that, or just idiotic red tape.

That pastor, btw, seems to work full-time for charity now ... kinda think preaching is really a side-line activity for him ... probably always was ...

 

[Umaro]

You'd have a lot more credibility if you cited specific examples of how awful Christians have been ... or how negligent. I'm guessing that maybe you lived in one of those socialist paradises which had a large number of ne'er do wells ...

Examples? Certainly. Let's look at the most vocally Christian business I know of: Chick-fil-a.

Three of the five standard positions at a Chick-fil-a store pay roughly $15k annually for full time. The federal poverty line for a family of 3 is $19k, and a family of 4 is $23k. Let's be really generous and assume that each of the ~1600 locations only has one of each type of worker, so 4800 workers are making about $15k.

Now, it's important to note that as the terms of its business, the Chick-fil-a company takes 15% of gross sales, and then 50% of pretax net profit from each store.

Now, if we go by the standard family of 4 poverty line, that would mean Chick-fil-a would have to donate About $38.4 million per year to have it's own workers all be out of poverty. If you use the 3 member poverty line, that's still $19.2 million they would need to break even.

I can't seem to find an exact number for donations, but they speak proudly of the $1.6 million they gave to workers for scholarships, and there's considerable news about the $2 million they gave to a group of anti-gay protestors. But let's be generous. Let's round to an even $4 million. Then triple it to $12 million in annual donations. That's still only ~65% of what they'd need to have all workers breach the 3 member poverty line.

Now, keep in mind this company broke $4 billion in sales last year.



So there you have it. We have an expressly and celebratedly Christian company, exactly the sort who claim charity is enough and that we should "teach a man to fish" and "he who works eats," taking upwards of 65% of their workers labor while not giving them enough to take "fishing lessons" or eat.

So yes, I will say charity is not enough, and that many Christians are betraying the theory on their own. When your charity doesn't cover your own workers, then it is not enough.

 

[Panzerkamfwagen]

Three of the five standard positions at a Chick-fil-a store pay roughly $15k annually for full time. The federal poverty line for a family of 3 is $19k, and a family of 4 is $23k. Let's be really generous and assume that each of the ~1600 locations only has one of each type of worker, so 4800 workers are making about $15k.

Do you have any demographic information about the people who work at Chic-Fil-A?

I don't even know where to find one of those restaurants.

 

[katherine2001]

Yes NHE, this is what Christians proclaim. Loudly too, and often. But then us lowly heathens watch them proceed to do precisely not that.

They talk big about teaching the unskilled man to fish, and how the man who works will eat, but then don't share enough of the profits for that man to learn a skill or eat! Then they berate the government for trying to help! Who do you guys really think you're fooling here?

The Apostle James said that it is not enough to tell a person in need that you will pray for them. If you have the means to help that person, you are to give them the material goods (and maybe money) to help them. He said this in the part where he talks about faith and works going together.

If you didn't read my link in post #79, St. Basil the Great said that it is the wealthy that are the thieves, not the poor. Jesus made it clear that we are to pay taxes (render to Caesar what is Caesar's), therefore, it is not stealing for the Government to have taxes. It is interesting that Christians say that the Government is "stealing" their money. With all due respect, we Christians should be more than willing to give our money and goods to those in need. After all, according to Christ in the last passage of Matt 25, that is what will decide whether we are in the Kingdom or not. Christ made it clear that we can either have our treasures here or have them in heaven, but those two things are total opposites.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Examples? Certainly. Let's look at the most vocally Christian business I know of: Chick-fil-a.

Three of the five standard positions at a Chick-fil-a store pay roughly $15k annually for full time. The federal poverty line for a family of 3 is $19k, and a family of 4 is $23k. Let's be really generous and assume that each of the ~1600 locations only has one of each type of worker, so 4800 workers are making about $15k.

Now, it's important to note that as the terms of its business, the Chick-fil-a company takes 15% of gross sales, and then 50% of pretax net profit from each store.

Now, if we go by the standard family of 4 poverty line, that would mean Chick-fil-a would have to donate About $38.4 million per year to have it's own workers all be out of poverty. If you use the 3 member poverty line, that's still $19.2 million they would need to break even.

I can't seem to find an exact number for donations, but they speak proudly of the $1.6 million they gave to workers for scholarships, and there's considerable news about the $2 million they gave to a group of anti-gay protestors. But let's be generous. Let's round to an even $4 million. Then triple it to $12 million in annual donations. That's still only ~65% of what they'd need to have all workers breach the 3 member poverty line.

Now, keep in mind this company broke $4 billion in sales last year.



So there you have it. We have an expressly and celebratedly Christian company, exactly the sort who claim charity is enough and that we should "teach a man to fish" and "he who works eats," taking upwards of 65% of their workers labor while not giving them enough to take "fishing lessons" or eat.

So yes, I will say charity is not enough, and that many Christians are betraying the theory on their own. When your charity doesn't cover your own workers, then it is not enough.

Thanks for providing an example, Umaro.

Just one question for you. Why should Chick-fil-A pay employees enough for a family of four to live comfortably?

Here are some additional questions for your consideration, as well ...

Do you believe that all businesses should pay employees enough for a family of four to live in middle-class comfort? What about high school kids ... should they earn as much as middle-age employees who have learned a business through years of experience ... and who are paying to put their kids through college? Do you believe that there should be such a thing as entry level jobs? Have you considered that people who choose to invest in eight years of college might provide more value to a company or business?

 

[MachZer0]

Thanks for providing an example, Umaro.

Just one question for you. Why should Chick-fil-A pay employees enough for a family of four to live comfortably?

If the best job you can get is at Chick-fil-A, you shouldn't have a family of four

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

If the best job you can get is at Chick-fil-A, you shouldn't have a family of four

What if you had a family of four and a good job, but then the economy took the nose dive it did and you lost your good job, and Chick-fil-A is the best you could find?

 

[Theofane]

I know greed used to be considered a sin. But I don't think it is anymore.

Greed is still considered a sin. Like lust, sloth, envy, pride, wrath and gluttony, it's what makes us who were are as a people. It's what keeps atheist philosophers in business.

 

[MachZer0]

What if you had a family of four and a good job, but then the economy took the nose dive it did and you lost your good job, and Chick-fil-A is the best you could find?

Then you'd better start unloading your assets, cutting back on your lifestyle and pounding the pavement looking for something better. But your lifestyle is not the problem for the manager at Chick-fil-A

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Then you'd better start unloading your assets, cutting back on your lifestyle and pounding the pavement looking for something better. But your lifestyle is not the problem for the manager at Chick-fil-A

Speaking from experience, that isn't always the case. I know families of 3-4 that lead very frugal lifestyles and they still have trouble getting by in today's economy.