Why Do You Trust Muhammad?

[laconicstudent]

Muslims have never spend a single cent,they don't bribe with women or green card or citizenship for people to accept Islam.

No, some countries just forbid proselytizing and create criminal penalties for those who convert away from Islam. They don't reward, just punish. Kind of interesting how the worst oppressors of human religious rights and religious freedom are those countries that are majority Islamic and/or have special recognition of Islam in the Constitution.

Compare that with, say, Britain, which actually has a state Church. And yet you don't see any legal penalties for apostasy compared to Egypt or Iran.

Telling.

 

[Montalban]

As a married man with 1 wife, I have to say that if any man can put up with 4 concurrent wives, truly God is with him

Great ; you find one sufficient

 

[Montalban]

At the heart of nearly every religion is fear and terror. Especially the 3 Abrahamic traditions. Get over yourselves already. What makes one security blanket any better than another? They all cover your head when the big bad monster in the closet makes a thump. Does it matter what color ut is?

more tu quoque

 

[Montalban]

That is only ten commandments. if you were to see the whole quran,there are thousands of commandments that need to be obeyed.

I would agree Islam is truly more legalistic.

Do you keep yourself away from fornication,alcohol.pork and did you lower your gaze?

What's pork got to do with it?

Muslims have never spend a single cent,they don't bribe with women or green card or citizenship for people to accept Islam

Arab petro-dollars flood into the west setting up Islamic schools, "Chairs" on Islamic studies at universities, etc.

Any nation that criticises Islam (such as Denmark) and you have mobs ripping apart commerical enterprises from those countries

 

[laconicstudent]

What's pork got to do with it?

Forget pork, what has alcohol got to do with it?


Our Lord (and one they consider a prophet) performed His first miracle by creating more wine at a wedding after they'd drunk their way through all they had on hand.

 

[newborn2007]

No, some countries just forbid proselytizing and create criminal penalties for those who convert away from Islam. They don't reward, just punish. Kind of interesting how the worst oppressors of human religious rights and religious freedom are those countries that are majority Islamic and/or have special recognition of Islam in the Constitution.

Compare that with, say, Britain, which actually has a state Church. And yet you don't see any legal penalties for apostasy compared to Egypt or Iran.

Telling.

Being rewarded or being punished can only be done by The Creator and not the human.IF in Quran it says you must carry out certain punishment for certain sins,then Muslim must obey it.if they don't obey,they must be prepared to be answered.

You do not need to point your finger to Muslim leaders as your own leader is no much difference.

Corruption will take place and people will force good people to do corruption.That's the sign of last hour.
That is the game of satan .You can't change the world but you can change yourself.

Provide me the proofs where there is penalty for apostasy that is still being carried out these days.you just heard here and there and you post as though it is the biggest truth you found.lol

I dare you to provide me the evidence where these 2 countries have carried our punishment for apostasy.

Well they are supposed to be punished as that is the order of The Creator.even for those did fornication,must be stone to death(for married people did) and 80 lashes when unmarried people did fornication.

I wish there is true Muslim country which carries out this punishment so that they will learn to obey The Lord.

The punishment in this world is nothing compared to the punishment in hereafter.

But unfortunately these days no one doesn't the fornication punishment except repentance alone.

Is this the best you can do?Instead of defending the verses I posted in a few threads and posts,you are trying your best to prove that Muslims are bad.


If I were to do the same as you did,then there is no difference between you and me.

Muslims do not represent Islam.Islam represent itself through Quran.If you were to debate with me about Islam,you should do it in a professional way by referring to the scripture.

If you wanna tell the whole world how bad Muslims are,remember,the media is doing better job than you.

But that's not the point. I will never put Christianity into trial because of some irresponsible people like you.

I have learned that there are still nice people of The Book in this forum which really touched my heart. for their sake,I shall treat Christianity with the best manner.

You can insult and do whatever you want,yet you can't stop the growth of Islam,even the most powerful people on Earth can't do anything.All they can do is to kill people with genocides.that's the best they can do.but they can never stop the truth from spreading or they can never stop people from accepting Islam

Instead of talking about Islam killing people who convert,let me tell you the treatment reverts get.Many people who converted to Islam have been disowned by the family and even some were killed and threatened to be killed.

Now you tell me who are the real culprits and racist here
Whatever you say can be used against you because you are not speaking truth

have a great day.nice try though

 

[newborn2007]

Islam is easy, for a man.

If I was a Moslem man married to a Moslem women, then I'd have in effect my very own live-in sex slave. What's 'better' is that if I can afford it, I can have up to four. And, that's not including concubines.

On top of that, if I were a Shi'a Moslem I could have women as my 'wife' just for the night.

This is not the first time to hear about Non Muslim arguing about having sex with a slave.and the shiah thing is not under Quran and sunnah.You gotta personally deal with them.I am a sunni who follows the quran and sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

It is true there will be many sects before the last hour comes.and only one is true.

I can also argue about the sects and deviation In Christianity itself
Some believe in trinity and some rejects it.Yet they call themselves Christians

having sex with a slave woman means what the right hand posses. the slave woman is the property of the master and he can have sex with his slave as that cannot have sex with any other man.

Isn't this better than how you guys treated the slaves of Africans.

All of you are talking as though you are good.But the history proves the other way

In can even talk how America was"born".do you want me to talk about it's history?lol

 

[newborn2007]

Forget pork, what has alcohol got to do with it?


Our Lord (and one they consider a prophet) performed His first miracle by creating more wine at a wedding after they'd drunk their way through all they had on hand.

Lower your gaze.
PROOF:
[Matthew 5:27-29] Jesas says "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Dont eat pigs.
PROOF:
[Deutronomy 14:8] "The swine(pig) also, because it divideth the hoof, but cheweth not the cud, shall be unclean, their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch."

No alchohol!
PROOF:
[Proverbs 20:1] "Wine is a luxurious thing, and drunkenness riotous: whosoever is delighted therewith, shall not be wise."

[Ephesians 5:18] "be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury."
p.s: am wondering who can explain the above verses

Well some unknowable people night just end up saying"well those rules are for Jews not for us"


And Jesus pbuh was sent to Jews and not to you.If you were to claim the prophet like Moses pbuh in Bible is Jesus pbuh,I don't see any of you following the commandments of Moses pbuh.

But I do see Muslims follow those commandments.
And I strictly with evidence believe that the prophet mentioned in OT is Muhammad pbuh.

If you can prove me wrong,try to prove me wrong.Your actions shouldn't contradicts the verses in your scripture.There are only two possibilities-either you are wrong or your scripture is wrong.The Christians can decide that for themselves

Paul of the Council didn't do a great job in "modifying" the scripture.There are still evidence still being preserved

 

[laconicstudent]

Being rewarded or being punished can only be done by The Creator and not the human.IF in Quran it says you must carry out certain punishment for certain sins,then Muslim must obey it.if they don't obey,they must be prepared to be answered.

Well, I guess you disagree with the Egyptian and Iranian government then.

You do not need to point your finger to Muslim leaders as your own leader is no much difference.

President Barack Obama oppresses religious minorities? I guess I haven't been reading the newspaper enough.

Provide me the proofs where there is penalty for apostasy that is still being carried out these days.you just heard here and there and you post as though it is the biggest truth you found.lol

Well, there was the guy I know who had to apply for religious asylum in the United States after he converted to Christianity when visiting his older brother who was studying abroad here.

He told his father on the phone that he was a Christian. His father said he would either come back to Islam or die, and then started trying to have him deported back to the U.A.E.

I wish there is true Muslim country which carries out this punishment so that they will learn to obey The Lord.

I'm sorry. I just had to increase the size, just so no one on the forum will miss it. I admit, I never thought I would actually find someone who seriously agrees that apostates should be murdered. Or an inhumane and primitive punishment like whipping for extramarital sex. Religion of "Peace" indeed.

I feel called to criticize the lack of intellectual integrity in a religion that reduces itself to physical thuggery and intimidation to prevent people from leaving it. Perhaps Islam's numbers are so high, not out of genuine adherence, but merely because some people are too frightened to publicly renounce it, hmmm?

Is this the best you can do?Instead of defending the verses I posted in a few threads and posts,you are trying your best to prove that Muslims are bad.

First off, I'm not arguing that Muslims are bad, it would be Islam.

Well, I'm not having to work that hard. Your comments expressing disappointment that apostates and fornicators still aren't executed or whipped does it all for me.

If I were to do the same as you did,then there is no difference between you and me.

No, because I don't believe fornicators and apostates from Christianity should be murdered or whipped.

If you wanna tell the whole world how bad Muslims are,remember,the media is doing better job than you.

And you are doing a much better job then me. And its how bad Islam is.

But that's not the point. I will never put Christianity into trial because of some irresponsible people like you.

Irresponsible implies that I have failed a responsibility. While I am the foremost of sinners, which responsibility are you talking about, specifically?

You can insult and do whatever you want,yet you can't stop the growth of Islam,even the most powerful people on Earth can't do anything.All they can do is to kill people with genocides.

I certainly hope not. But where is this systemic killing of traditionally Muslim peoples you speak of?

that's the best they can do.but they can never stop the truth from spreading or they can never stop people from accepting Islam.

And meanwhile, some Muslims are going the other way. Glory be to God!

A Muslim Preacher Converts to Orthodoxy | AOI Observer

Instead of talking about Islam killing people who convert,let me tell you the treatment reverts get.Many people who converted to Islam have been disowned by the family and even some were killed and threatened to be killed.

Thats funny. I never hear about those. While I don't doubt that it happens occasionally, given that you yourself expressed a longing for an state-imposed death sentence on apostates and those who have sex out of wedlock while I've never heard a Christians make a similar statement, I'm betting it occurs more in predominantly Islamic countries. Especially since I personally know someone who was threatened by his own father and had to apply for asylum to stay alive.

Now you tell me who are the real culprits and racist here

Racists? What the heck are you talking about? Neither of us. I wasn't aware we were talking about racial discrimination.


I'm going to decline to respond to the baseless charges of lying beyond saying it is hurtful and beneath you. I merely speak the truth as I know it and we don't get anywhere by accusing each other of deliberate dishonesty.

 

[newborn2007]

Of course. Since he kind of is, Himself, God.

Don't give me childish answer by saying of course he can.Provide me the evidence.NO evidence,don't speak.

Do you wanna see my evidence that he can't?

DID NOTHING ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY:

[John 5:30] "I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

[John 14:31] "I do exactly as the Father commanded Me Get up, let us go from here."

[Matthew 20:23] "Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

SPOKE NOT ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY:

[John 8:28] "So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

SAID THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HIM:

[John 14:28] "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

If Jesus was god, then he has very little power.
PROOF:
[John 5:30] "I can of my own self do nothing!"
[Matthew 28:18] "All power is given unto me."


wondering what is your comment here

 

[laconicstudent]

Don't give me childish answer by saying of course he can.Provide me the evidence.NO evidence,don't speak.

Do you wanna see my evidence that he can't?

DID NOTHING ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY:

[John 5:30] "I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

[John 14:31] "I do exactly as the Father commanded Me Get up, let us go from here."

[Matthew 20:23] "Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

SPOKE NOT ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY:

[John 8:28] "So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

SAID THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HIM:

[John 14:28] "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

If Jesus was god, then he has very little power.
PROOF:
[John 5:30] "I can of my own self do nothing!"
[Matthew 28:18] "All power is given unto me."


wondering what is your comment here

I would ask that instead of flaming me as being "childish" and demanding that I not reply if my response doesn't fit your arbitrary standards that you treat me with more respect. Thanks.

In any event, you seem to be operating on the assumption that there would ever be conflict within the Trinity, and you then ask whether Jesus could do something completely in absence of the Holy Spirit and God the Father, which simply does not compute in Trinitarian theology.

 

[Montalban]

This is not the first time to hear about Non Muslim arguing about having sex with a slave.

Probably because it's normally an Islamic issue

and the shiah thing is not under Quran and sunnah.You gotta personally deal with them.I am a sunni who follows the quran and sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I don't need to personally deal with it, I'm not Moslem. A large number of Moslems accept that it is in the Koran. They argue that the verse allowing it is not abrogated in the Koran, so it's something you would have to deal with

I can also argue about the sects and deviation In Christianity itself
Some believe in trinity and some rejects it.Yet they call themselves Christians

What this has to do with the argument is known only to you

having sex with a slave woman means what the right hand posses. the slave woman is the property of the master and he can have sex with his slave as that cannot have sex with any other man.

Exactly. How does this refute what I said?

Isn't this better than how you guys treated the slaves of Africans.

How is forcing sex on slaves better? Moslems had African slaves too. So how is one group having slaves better than another group having slaves?

Who is 'you guys'? I'm Australian and we didn't have a slave trade of Africans

All of you are talking as though you are good.But the history proves the other way

See above about Australia and African slaves

In can even talk how America was"born".do you want me to talk about it's history?

What has this got to do with...?
a) the thread
and
b) me

 

[Montalban]

Lower your gaze.
PROOF:
[Matthew 5:27-29] Jesas (sic) says "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart."

This is nothing about lowering one’s gaze.

Dont eat pigs.
PROOF:
[Deutronomy 14:8] "The swine(pig) also, because it divideth the hoof, but cheweth not the cud, shall be unclean, their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch."

You forget the NT scriptures about nothing that goes into the mouth is unclean

No alchohol!
PROOF:
[Proverbs 20:1] "Wine is a luxurious thing, and drunkenness riotous: whosoever is delighted therewith, shall not be wise."
[Ephesians 5:18] "be not drunk with wine, wherein is luxury."

Jesus took the wine and said…

p.s: am wondering who can explain the above verses

If you don’t know, then they’re not proof verses!

Well some unknowable people night just end up saying"well those rules are for Jews not for us"
And Jesus was sent to Jews and not to you.

No. Jesus was sent to the Jews for all mankind

If you were to claim the prophet like Moses in Bible is Jesus,I don't see any of you following the commandments of Moses .

Straw-man; no one makes that claim

But I do see Muslims follow those commandments.

Really? Are they verses of the Bible that were uncorrupted?

And I strictly with evidence believe that the prophet mentioned in OT is Muhammad

.
Proof?

If you can prove me wrong,try to prove me wrong.Your actions shouldn't contradicts (sic) the verses in your scripture.There are only two possibilities-either you are wrong or your scripture is wrong.The Christians can decide that for themselves

Another straw-man given your interpretation of how we should read our own scriptures

Paul of the Council didn't do a great job in "modifying" the scripture.There are still evidence still being preserved

Non-sequitur.

 

[newborn2007]

Islam is easy, for a man.

If I was a Moslem man married to a Moslem women, then I'd have in effect my very own live-in sex slave. What's 'better' is that if I can afford it, I can have up to four. And, that's not including concubines.

On top of that, if I were a Shi'a Moslem I could have women as my 'wife' just for the night.

Well perhaps you should know this fact.


Joseph Smith, Jr.

Joseph Smith, Jr. (December 23, 1805 – June 27, 1844) was the founder and prophet of the Latter Day Saint movement. In the late 1820s, Smith announced that an angel had given him a set of golden plates engraved with a chronicle of ancient American peoples, which he had a unique gift to translate. In 1830, he published the resulting narratives as the Book of Mormon and founded the Church of Christ in western New York, claiming it to be a restoration of early Christianity.

Now lets see how many wives he had
​

THE WIVES OF JOSEPH SMITH
Wife Date Age Husband*
Emma Hale Jan 1827 22
Fanny Alger 1833 16
Lucinda Morgan Harris 1838 37 George W. Harris
Louisa Beaman Apr 1841 26
Zina Huntington Jacobs Oct 1841 20 Henry Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell Dec 1841 31 Norman Buell
Agnes Coolbrith Jan 1842 33
Sylvia Sessions Lyon Feb 1842 23 Windsor Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner Feb 1842 23 Adam Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions Mar 1842 47 David Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde Apr 1842 27 Orson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee Jun 1842 50 Jabez Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland Jun 1842 53 John Cleveland
Delcena Johnson Jul 1842 37
Eliza R. Snow Jun 1842 38
Sarah Ann Whitney Jul 1842 17
Martha McBride Aug 1842 37
Ruth Vose Sayers Feb 1843 33 Edward Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth 1843 16
Emily Dow Partridge Mar 1843 19
Eliza Maria Partridge Mar 1843 22
Almera Johnson Apr 1843 30
Lucy Walker May 1843 17
Sarah Lawrence May 1843 17
Maria Lawrence May 1843 19
Helen Mar Kimball May 1843 14
Hanna Ells 1843 29
Elvira Cowles Holmes Jun 1843 29 Jonathan Holmes
Rhoda Richards Jun 1843 58
Desdemona Fullmer Jul 1843 32
Olive Frost 1843 27
Melissa Lott Sep 1843 19
Nancy M. Winchester 1843 14
Fanny Young Nov 1843 56
* Living husband at the time of marriage to Joseph Smith

for more info you can read here

you better think twice before accusing Muslims marrying 4 wives.at least marrying 4 wives is better than cheating with pants on or cheating behind the wife's back .or I shall add having mistress and so on

Polygamy in the QuranThe Quran in Sura 4:3 says:
And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession.

 

[laconicstudent]

Ummmm.... Why are you bringing up Joseph Smith?.... Me and Montalban aren't LDS.

 

[Montalban]

Well perhaps you should know this fact.

that's irrelevant

But thanks for attempting tu quoque, anyway. You're in good company

 

[Montalban]

Ummmm.... Why are you bringing up Joseph Smith?.... Me and Montalban aren't LDS.

I think it's either a case of reaching, or someone has a set-standard of arguments that they're just recycling regardless of whom they're addressing - hence I am asked to account for 'African slavery' when I'm an Australian!

Matthew 11:15
He who has ears, let him hear.

 

[laconicstudent]

I think it's either a case of reaching, or someone has a set-standard of arguments that they're just recycling regardless of whom they're addressing - hence I am asked to account for 'African slavery' when I'm an Australian!

Matthew 11:15
He who has ears, let him hear.

I guess..... I mean, maybe it would be reasonable with me, since I haven't put on a EO icon, but you its pretty obvious that a criticism of Smith isn't exactly going to work.

 

[newborn2007]

This is nothing about lowering one’s gaze.

perhaps you are not smart enough to see what is written there.let me help you

[Matthew 5:27-29] Jesus says "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart."

No. Jesus was sent to the Jews for all mankind

are you a Jewish?

Really? Are they verses of the Bible that were uncorrupted?

Proof?

Well you can personally pm me I shall show you what is corrupted.by the way,there are already some who have created threads on that issue.

 

[newborn2007]

Ummmm.... Why are you bringing up Joseph Smith?.... Me and Montalban aren't LDS.

Isn't it under Christianity?
So tell you friend not to use other sects to insult Islam.
Shiahs can never be Muslim even if they claim so because whoever rejects Prophet Muhammad pbuh are considered kuffr as well.

In Quran Allah has ordered us to follow the sunnah which is to follow the teachings of Muhammad pbuh