Somebody has got to do something!

[LightHorseman]

Wait...what is your ultimate point?

Obviously, Adam and Eve had the genetic material to make people of all races or there wouldn't be people of all races!

OR... the Adam and Eve story isn't actually based on literal history

OOOHHHH....wait a second...are you a follower of that Shepherd's Chapel guy who teaches that anyone who isn't white isn't human?...and that the animals on the ark were different races of people?

If so, this is your wake up call.

I have no idea whisky tango you are talking about. How many times would you like me to refer to all the different races as "people", and acclaim the full, inclusive humanity of all different races before you stop trying to charecterise me as a racist?

My ultimate point, however, is that I don't see anything unambiguously Biblical about current events. I don't think Obama is the anti-Christ, and that discussing global terms with Adam and Eve as a starting point strike me as scientifically dubious and without any supporting evidence.

 

[LightHorseman]

You can't possibly believe the part about Christians being persecuted more now than in the past, can you? Leaving aside any other historical persecution, the Bible tells us an awful lot about real persecution--stuff about Rome, arenas, lions, etc. Where is anything like that happening now?

Come on, get real! Feeding people to lions and coating them in pitch and setting them on fire as night lights is hardly as bad as a tiny minority of Muslims saying they don't like us. Get some perspective, please!

 

[Hockey_Fan]

So Adam and Eve and Noah's ark are all allegory and not historical? Ok, um, thanks.

Is there any hope for the world? Or all we all inevitably doomed and on some collison course with catastrophe?

 

[Nadiine]

So Adam and Eve and Noah's ark are all allegory and not historical? Ok, um, thanks.

yes, those weren't REAL animals...

when people say the historic accounts of the Bible are "allegory",
they run into a few problems -

what does that say for the OTHER historic accounts found
in scripture that have proven to be very literal .. ie. by archaological
finds and other means of support?

If it's all allegory, then where did humans & animals come from
and why does man have a sin nature/ why is he prone to evil
instead of prone to goodness?

If it's all allegory, how does one come to know what the allegory
teaches ultimately? It ends up promoting subjectivism and
relativism and nobody can actually know what the lesson is -
it will be different for everyone on several different levels instead
of teaching objective fact as to where mankind comes from
and all historic content.

Lastly, the bible becomes random so that you cannot know what
is literal history or allegory until it's actually proven by tangible means.
The ark isn't real unless one finds the ark...
this would mean all else in the bible is false until proven literally
true. (and this goes against faith itself when we're called to trust
and believe despite what we see or percieve).

It basically renders God's word as subjective to the reader,
not absolute. If it's subjective & relative, then it cannot teach
one truth to everyone; everyone will accept and reject whatever
they please from it. (which violates scriptural statements given).

Is there any hope for the world? Or all we all inevitably doomed and on some collison course with catastrophe?

Outside of Salvation thru Jesus Christ, man is doomed and on a
spiritual collision course. yes.
This is why Jesus came in the first place - to provide our escape
from this ultimate fate.

 

[Nadiine]

You can't possibly believe the part about Christians being persecuted more now than in the past, can you? Leaving aside any other historical persecution, the Bible tells us an awful lot about real persecution--stuff about Rome, arenas, lions, etc. Where is anything like that happening now?

have a look -
Persecution.com - The Voice of the Martyrs

PrisonerAlert.com

As many as 100,000 Christians are in concentration camps, enduring regular torture. Executions are common.

Prisoners unable to contain their horror at executions are deemed disloyal to the party and are punished with electrical shock, often to death. Others are sent into solitary confinement in containers so cramped that their legs become permanently paralysed. Eight Christians working in a prison smelting factory died instantly when molten iron was poured onto them, one by one, for refusing to deny their faith.

 

[Danya]

yes, those weren't REAL animals...

when people say the historic accounts of the Bible are "allegory",
they run into a few problems -

what does that say for the OTHER historic accounts found
in scripture that have proven to be very literal .. ie. by archaological
finds and other means of support?

If it's all allegory, then where did humans & animals come from
and why does man have a sin nature/ why is he prone to evil
instead of prone to goodness?

If it's all allegory, how does one come to know what the allegory
teaches ultimately? It ends up promoting subjectivism and
relativism and nobody can actually know what the lesson is -
it will be different for everyone on several different levels instead
of teaching objective fact as to where mankind comes from
and all historic content.

Lastly, the bible becomes random so that you cannot know what
is literal history or allegory until it's actually proven by tangible means.
The ark isn't real unless one finds the ark...
this would mean all else in the bible is false until proven literally
true. (and this goes against faith itself when we're called to trust
and believe despite what we see or percieve).

It basically renders God's word as subjective to the reader,
not absolute. If it's subjective & relative, then it cannot teach
one truth to everyone; everyone will accept and reject whatever
they please from it. (which violates scriptural statements given).


Outside of Salvation thru Jesus Christ, man is doomed and on a
spiritual collision course. yes.
This is why Jesus came in the first place - to provide our escape
from this ultimate fate.

QFT

 

[jiminpa]

The anti-christ is not a Muslim, and Islam will fall and Hinduism in the guise of New Ageism will rise....after Psalm 83 is fulfilled, and the world will make idols to the hosts of heaven when the stars change their courses, as Enoch said, in delusion that they are gods, as Paul also mentions in 2 Thes 2, referring to Enoch's writings on that delusion.
God is sovereign; He is on the throne, and He sets over the kingdoms the basest of men... in judgment.

The antichrist cannot be revealed until the Church is removed, and the world is going on, the Gospel is preached, and babies are born.
Occupy til He comes, and stop pinning the tail on the antichrist, cause it is a futile occupation, and you will never see that man of sin if you are watching for the LORD Jesus, and there are no signs for the Church to watch for the Rapture; and only after the Church is removed will the signs begin which countdown to the returning date of the LORD Jesus, to cleanse the earth and reign for His Sabbath Peace of it's last thousand years.

What scripture establishes that the church will be removed? I've heard it preached but the only scripture anyone has ever provided says no such thing. I mean this respectfully.

 

[jiminpa]

Come on, get real! Feeding people to lions and coating them in pitch and setting them on fire as night lights is hardly as bad as a tiny minority of Muslims saying they don't like us. Get some perspective, please!

No offense intended, but you must live in a very small world. Just because our British founded countries aren't up to speed doesn't mean the rest of the world appreciates Christianity. If you think there is no persecution in the countries which don't openly persecute Christians try being truly honest in your workplace and see how long you have a job, or raising your children biblically and see if you don't get a knock on your door. Try going to court with nothing but the truth and see how well that turns out.

 

[gracechick]

have a look -
Persecution.com - The Voice of the Martyrs

PrisonerAlert.com

Horrid:o

And many Christians wonder why they should speak rather then be the silent majority (well perhpas for not much longer).

 

[nChrist]

What scripture establishes that the church will be removed? I've heard it preached but the only scripture anyone has ever provided says no such thing. I mean this respectfully.

It's actually taught very clearly in numerous portions of Scripture, but I'll just give you a couple to study for now. It's a Bible fact. The only thing in question is the timing of the sequence of events.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.



1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[nChrist]

Horrid:o

And many Christians wonder why they should speak rather then be the silent majority (well perhpas for not much longer).

Hello GraceChick and All,

Christians have been martyred in the name of JESUS CHRIST since the foundation of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Christians are still being martyred all over the world as we speak in the NAME OF CHRIST. It's very sad to find out how many missionaries give their lives in the LORD'S WORK every year, and the numbers are growing larger. Those who were divinely INSPIRED to write the New Testament were all martyred in the HOLY NAME OF CHRIST, and they considered it an honor to die in HIS NAME.

The danger faced by missionaries will be true all over the world during the Tribulation Period, and Christians will be either forced to denounce CHRIST and take the mark of the beast or die.

Portions of the world still have freedom of religion, and most have no idea how precious this freedom is. Most of us can still share and witness in relative safety, but things are changing quickly. We don't know what tomorrow will bring, but Christians are already in the MIGHTY HANDS OF ALMIGHTY GOD!

In the meantime:

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 NASB Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death works in us, but life in you. 13 But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak, 14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God. 16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Why can't people see that we've been in the tribulation since Christ ascended?

Jesus said that the tribulation ends when the sun/moon darken. The darkening of the sun/moon is the 6th seal.

Jesus said the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect. The elect are described in Rev 7 and Joel 2. The reason it's cut short is in Joel 2...among other places.

The reign of the devil is exactly 42 months long and is not cut short for the sake of anyone. The devil is allowed to do whatever he pleases for those 42 months. The reign of the devil is described as WOES in Rev 12 and Rev 8. Those woes are trumpets 5-7 of the 7th seal.

Jesus ascended and sent out "my four dreadful judgments" (Ezek 14:21) which are the four seal riders mentioned in Rev 6, Zech 6 and yes, even in Matt 24 as "the beginning of birth pains". They have been riding since then. The city and the sanctuary were desolated and are STILL desolated TO THIS DAY! NOWHERE is the anti-christ described as "the abomination of desolation".
The tribulation is something we have ALL endured...ALL who have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb" according to Rev 7...since Christ.

The "giving of white robes" ("fine linen bright and clean" - Rev 19) is when the Bride of Christ weds the Groom. That happens in the 5th seal....notice that the 5th seal is immediately before the sun/moon darkening in the 6th seal which is also the end of the tribulation (matt 24) and the beginning of the time of wrath (Rev 6) which the church is not appointed to suffer (1 Thess 5:9).

The catching away of the church is the 2nd firstfruits offering (bread) of the first harvest. (Lev 23) Those that remain are the remnant of the first harvest and the beginning of the second harvest which is why Amos 9 says this:

Amo 9:13"The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills.

 

[LightHorseman]

Christians have been martyred in the name of JESUS CHRIST since the foundation of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Christians are still being martyred all over the world as we speak in the NAME OF CHRIST. It's very sad to find out how many missionaries give their lives in the LORD'S WORK every year, and the numbers are growing larger. Those who were divinely INSPIRED to write the New Testament were all martyred in the HOLY NAME OF CHRIST, and they considered it an honor to die in HIS NAME.

Emphasis mine... um... got any evidence to back up this claim?

 

[LightHorseman]

Hi, HDJ... um, remember how 2 weeks ago you predicted something unarguably apocalyptic would happen in about 2 weeks? Just thought it worth asking if you could direct me to the event, since the news coverage must have been unusually poor.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Hi, HDJ... um, remember how 2 weeks ago you predicted something unarguably apocalyptic would happen in about 2 weeks? Just thought it worth asking if you could direct me to the event, since the news coverage must have been unusually poor.

I'm giving it until the 16th and then I'm letting go of it. That would be 40 days since the urgent warning was issued which has Biblical precedent with Jonah's warning to Ninevah.

David Wilkerson Today: AN URGENT MESSAGE

"AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US."

I definitely see this event in Joel 2, Rev 6, Amos 8, Matt 24, Ezek 38.

I'm not aware of any other "urgent warning" in the Bible that was given longer than 40 days prior to the event.

Noah was given 7 days even though he prepared for decades.
Lot was given a few hours.
Ninevah's urgent warning was for 40 days.

4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

Somehow, I don't think Obama cares that the urgent warning might apply to this nation so as to fast and put on sackcloth and humbly seek the Lord.

So, if the urgent warning is true and Jonah is the precedent, then this week should be interesting. If it is true and there is no Biblical precedent as to time-frame and more than 40 days have passed, then how can the warning be URGENT? If it is not true, then the man has proclaimed something to be from the Lord that will not come to pass, thereby making himself a false prophet.

 

[Texas Lynn]

yes, those weren't REAL animals...

when people say the historic accounts of the Bible are "allegory",
they run into a few problems -

what does that say for the OTHER historic accounts found
in scripture that have proven to be very literal .. ie. by archaological
finds and other means of support?

If it's all allegory, then where did humans & animals come from
and why does man have a sin nature/ why is he prone to evil
instead of prone to goodness?

By the same measure how do we know the gods don't live on Mount Olympos, a dragon named Scylla doesn't live in the strait between Sardania and Corsica and eat sailors, and Superman's Fortress of Solitude is not made from a cave he excavated himself in the side of an arctic mountain? If you want to believe all of that believe it all-otherwise it's just a selective decision to believe sixteen impossible things before breakfast.

If it's all allegory, how does one come to know what the allegory
teaches ultimately? It ends up promoting subjectivism and
relativism and nobody can actually know what the lesson is -
it will be different for everyone on several different levels instead
of teaching objective fact as to where mankind comes from
and all historic content.

So it is with everything; the concept there is anything which is otherwise is entirely imaginary.

It basically renders God's word as subjective to the reader,
not absolute. If it's subjective & relative, then it cannot teach
one truth to everyone; everyone will accept and reject whatever
they please from it. (which violates scriptural statements given).

Obviously it is then given disagreements among individual Christians and denominations.

Outside of Salvation thru Jesus Christ, man is doomed and on a
spiritual collision course. yes.
This is why Jesus came in the first place - to provide our escape
from this ultimate fate.

And never once did he advocate political correctness.

 

[Texas Lynn]

No offense intended, but you must live in a very small world. Just because our British founded countries aren't up to speed doesn't mean the rest of the world appreciates Christianity. If you think there is no persecution in the countries which don't openly persecute Christians try being truly honest in your workplace and see how long you have a job, or raising your children biblically and see if you don't get a knock on your door. Try going to court with nothing but the truth and see how well that turns out.

No one denies Christians-and many others-are subject to forms of persecution in China and the Taliban areas. That they are under similar risk in America is hyperbole. That they did not themselves persecute NonChristians when they had dominance cannot be denied.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I'm giving it until the 16th and then I'm letting go of it. That would be 40 days since the urgent warning was issued which has Biblical precedent with Jonah's warning to Ninevah.

David Wilkerson Today: AN URGENT MESSAGE

"AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US."

I definitely see this event in Joel 2, Rev 6, Amos 8, Matt 24, Ezek 38.

I'm not aware of any other "urgent warning" in the Bible that was given longer than 40 days prior to the event.

Noah was given 7 days even though he prepared for decades.
Lot was given a few hours.
Ninevah's urgent warning was for 40 days.

4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

Somehow, I don't think Obama cares that the urgent warning might apply to this nation so as to fast and put on sackcloth and humbly seek the Lord.

So, if the urgent warning is true and Jonah is the precedent, then this week should be interesting. If it is true and there is no Biblical precedent as to time-frame and more than 40 days have passed, then how can the warning be URGENT? If it is not true, then the man has proclaimed something to be from the Lord that will not come to pass, thereby making himself a false prophet.

Like a sideshow fortuneteller his "prophecy" is vague enough he can claim it was valid later. What gives him any more credibility than the Jehovah's Witness "prophet" who claimed the world would end in 1919?

 

[jiminpa]

It's actually taught very clearly in numerous portions of Scripture, but I'll just give you a couple to study for now. It's a Bible fact. The only thing in question is the timing of the sequence of events.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.



1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

The only thing either of those verses say about the timing is that it will be at at the last trumpet, which would actually lend credibility to a post-tribulation rapture.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[jiminpa]

No one denies Christians-and many others-are subject to forms of persecution in China and the Taliban areas. That they are under similar risk in America is hyperbole. That they did not themselves persecute NonChristians when they had dominance cannot be denied.

I can't speak for any persecution done centuries in the past by those claiming Christianity, since: that is not the topic of the thread, many claim Christianity without any evidence of it, and I wasn't even born at the time.