Somebody has got to do something!

[Nadiine]

But things are not only the same, but still pretty much BETTER than they have been for most of history! What recent event do you see as even remotely comparable to, say, the darkest days of the second world War?

if you don't see the shift in spiritual climate, that tells me ALOT

 

[Nadiine]

and until you actually dig in and do some STUDY of bible prophecy
and listen to Christian teachers/leaders, you'll continue on your
same path of rejection of prophecy.

I gave you links you can start with. Sitting in a little corner of
denial without doing a due dilligence on the subject to fairly
assess it and hear what they're teaching on the signs and
biblical, isn't being genuine about the subject.

If you really DO want to learn and see where Christians are coming
from and why they believe what they do, it would help to actually
check into it for yourself.
Otherwise I see it as pure bias

 

[LightHorseman]

if you don't see the shift in spiritual climate, that tells me ALOT

(but then...... you support & promote homosexuality too -
so.........)
*shrugs shoulders*

Homosexuality is nothing new. Come on, you reckon there are all these great changes afoot, please cite me some examples?

Specific ones?

 

[LightHorseman]

and until you actually dig in and do some STUDY of bible prophecy
and listen to Christian teachers/leaders, you'll continue on your
same path of rejection of prophecy.

I gave you links you can start with. Sitting in a little corner of
denial without doing a due dilligence on the subject to fairly
assess it and hear what they're teaching on the signs and
biblical, isn't being genuine about the subject.

If you really DO want to learn and see where Christians are coming
from and why they believe what they do, it would help to actually
check into it for yourself.
Otherwise I see it as pure bias

Was this to me? I'm sorry, I must have missed the link.

I don't think I'm asking for much, if, as you say, we're nearing the end times, then please cite me an example of a Biblical apocalyptic prophecy that has unambiguously been linked to a recent event?

 

[Danya]

They don't repent at all, they get ANGRIER and more obstinate.
It hardens them instead.
(this happened in OT Israel too).

You are right Nadiine.

 

[Nadiine]

Was this to me? I'm sorry, I must have missed the link.

I don't think I'm asking for much, if, as you say, we're nearing the end times, then please cite me an example of a Biblical apocalyptic prophecy that has unambiguously been linked to a recent event?

towards end of post #118

 

[LightHorseman]

If you want to learn about prophecy, I'd suggest Chuck Missler
for starters.
http://www.khouse.org/

2 [part] articles on America's downfall:
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/832
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/838

some of Missler's radio shows that offer end times topics
http://www.khouse.org/6640_cat/currentevents/

this radio segment covers America's moral fall
http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP080/

There's also a group of recent prophecy videos I was really impressed with,
hosted by the founders of Godtv out of the UK.
http://www.god.tv/god/end_times?region_req=apocalypse
They interviewed several experts of their fields regarding the
signs we see in our world today and how they pertain to
bible prophecy - they're in 1/2 hour segments which were done
over a period of several weeks w/ different guest interviews.

Pretty eye opening stuff

Ah, links. I see. Maybe I'll check them out when I have a bit more time. You couldn't give me the overall gist? Or a few really catching specifics? Like I said, all I really need is one or two Biblical prophecies that unambiguously refer to recent events... other than the return of Jews to Israel, what have you got?

 

[manchambo]

I've always believed that either God causing a crisis/disaster or
allowing one to happen is used to cause people to realize their own
mortality and think about eternity briefly and draw them to Himself.

This is why I've always believed that disasters are necessary for
people who would have never given God any consideration (having
hard hearts).
So yes I agree, it would take a huge catastrophe to turn any of
this around at this point, but even then I don't think it would
do too much with our spiritual condition the way it is today.
People forget quickly and continue as they did.

And if you read Revelation, during the tribulation as God is sending
one judgment after the next, it has an opposite effect.
They don't repent at all, they get ANGRIER and more obstinate.
It hardens them instead.
(this happened in OT Israel too).

I've always been confused by this line of thinking. That 9/11, say, was used or allowed by God to teach me some type of lesson would imply that God is willing to cause or allow thousands of people to die so I can be spiritually enriched. That's fine for me, I suppose, but what about the thousands of people who died for my benefit?

If one of my little daughters died, that might make me turn to God (or it might make me turn away, I suppose). But what sort of a person, or God, would kill a little girl, much less thousands of people, to teach someone else a lesson?

Or to put it slightly differently, if it takes a bunch of people dying to teach me a lesson, maybe I'm not entitled to learn it.

 

[manchambo]

Ah, links. I see. Maybe I'll check them out when I have a bit more time. You couldn't give me the overall gist? Or a few really catching specifics? Like I said, all I really need is one or two Biblical prophecies that unambiguously refer to recent events... other than the return of Jews to Israel, what have you got?

Wouldn't you have to be shown not just that they are present, but that similar signs have not been present in some form at various times for the last 2000 years? To put it bluntly, lots of bad stuff has happened over the past two millenia, a lot of it astonishingly worse than anything that's happening now. We know for a fact that people have viewed that bad stuff to be a sign of end times many times before (e.g., during the black plague.) What's different about this current bad stuff that makes it the genuine sign of prophecy fulfillment?

 

[Nadiine]

Wouldn't you have to be shown not just that they are present, but that similar signs have not been present in some form at various times for the last 2000 years? To put it bluntly, lots of bad stuff has happened over the past two millenia, a lot of it astonishingly worse than anything that's happening now. We know for a fact that people have viewed that bad stuff to be a sign of end times many times before (e.g., during the black plague.) What's different about this current bad stuff that makes it the genuine sign of prophecy fulfillment?

do you know what the bible says are the signs?

It's not just "bad stuff" - like.... sin.
It's a combination of specifics like increase of knowledge
seeking global peace
world unrest
race against race
loss of natural affection
increase of earthquakes/weather anomolies
increase in violence/lawlessness
economic calamity - and other things

I'd really suggest that if people are going to mock or reject prophetic
signs that they'de first do some research on what the Bible
actually says in some detail.
Does anyone actually listen to teachers & Pastors who
preach on prophetical signs?
Or is everyone self taught around here?

If nobody is going to take the time to study this and see
what the facts are about it, I hardly consider it wise to
sit in contempt on an issue

 

[Nadiine]

I've always been confused by this line of thinking. That 9/11, say, was used or allowed by God to teach me some type of lesson would imply that God is willing to cause or allow thousands of people to die so I can be spiritually enriched. That's fine for me, I suppose, but what about the thousands of people who died for my benefit?

If one of my little daughters died, that might make me turn to God (or it might make me turn away, I suppose). But what sort of a person, or God, would kill a little girl, much less thousands of people, to teach someone else a lesson?

Or to put it slightly differently, if it takes a bunch of people dying to teach me a lesson, maybe I'm not entitled to learn it.

I'm a little baffled if you have a Christian icon why you wouldn't
agree that God uses negative events to bring about positive
things?
That's all thru the bible as a principle. Are we going to be God's
judge? Or are we going to refuse to believe He allows bad things
to happen and recreate our own god/religion?

We either accept these things or.... maybe we should be realistic
and rethink if we're in Christianity.

We can't always know why God does things -
But I happen to think that 1 crisis can serve several purposes and have
more than 1 reason.
And as I've noticed from scripture, God is alot more concerned about
the afterlife than the temporal/material world we live in.

As Jesus said, "what good is it to gain the whole world yet lose
your soul"? His goal is SALVATION, not everybody being happy
and never experiencing anything negative.
So yes, He has and will allow or cause crisis to win souls or get us
to take account of our spiritual condition & mortality.
It's often the only time He can get our attn. - esp. these days
with all the tech gadgets & games & tv we flood ourselves with
to keep our minds occupied and off of what really matters.

Look what happened when He took the lives of 2 people in
judgment:
Acts 5
11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
Continuing Power in the Church
12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch.

13 Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.

14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

All life and souls are God's to give and take - life is a gift
ON LOAN from God, it's all temporary and we're taught to
always be ready to meet the Lord and not to trust in
the material things here.

I know I said that in a sterile way - that's not to take from the
sadness and pain of losing people we love.
(I include our pets too).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Ah, links. I see. Maybe I'll check them out when I have a bit more time. You couldn't give me the overall gist? Or a few really catching specifics? Like I said, all I really need is one or two Biblical prophecies that unambiguously refer to recent events... other than the return of Jews to Israel, what have you got?

Psalm 83 describes Islam/Ahmadinajad's call to wipe Israel off the map and the Islamic conspiracy against Israel.

Ezek 28:24-26 describes what's going to happen to Israel's thorny neighbors.

Ezek 38 and Joel 2 describes something similar, if not the same, involving possibly Russia but most definitely Islamic nations.

Isaiah 17 says Damascus will cease to be a city about the same time the plundering armies of gog are destroyed.

Israel and her neighbors are the center of what is coming next for the world.

The church and believing Israel will be removed/sealed for protection at the time of the invasion of Israel.

By then, it will be too late to be taken with the church. You need to see what is happening and choose this day whom you will serve.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I'm a little baffled if you have a Christian icon why you wouldn't
agree that God uses negative events to bring about positive
things?
That's all thru the bible as a principle. Are we going to be God's
judge? Or are we going to refuse to believe He allows bad things
to happen and recreate our own god/religion?

Amen! God used the Babylonians and the Romans to desolate Israel. God will use the devil through the anti-christ to destroy Mystery Babylon and force people to make their final heart's choice for Him or against Him.

 

[manchambo]

do you know what the bible says are the signs?

It's not just "bad stuff" - like.... sin.
It's a combination of specifics like increase of knowledge
seeking global peace
world unrest
race against race
loss of natural affection
increase of earthquakes/weather anomolies
increase in violence/lawlessness
economic calamity - and other things

I'd really suggest that if people are going to mock or reject prophetic
signs that they'de first do some research on what the Bible
actually says in some detail.
Does anyone actually listen to teachers & Pastors who
preach on prophetical signs?
Or is everyone self taught around here?

If nobody is going to take the time to study this and see
what the facts are about it, I hardly consider it wise to
sit in contempt on an issue

Other than taking me to task for using the term "bad stuff" (which I noted myself was "putting it bluntly"), how does this answer the question?

Which of those signs you're identifying haven't been present at some times, or at all times, for the past 2000 years? Indeed, which of those things haven't been present, and interpreted as a sign of the coming of end times by some individuals or groups, long before any of us were born?

 

[manchambo]

Amen! God used the Babylonians and the Romans to desolate Israel. God will use the devil through the anti-christ to destroy Mystery Babylon and force people to make their final heart's choice for Him or against Him.

I think this is a question of interpretation. I am aware of biblical stories of God punishing certain people or groups for something they did wrong. That punishment might result in other people taking notice and receiving salvation.

I'm not aware of an idea advanced in the Bible that God would destroy innocent people to teach someone else a lesson about salvation. There may be a verse I can't remember or haven't read, but I have never taken from the Bible the idea that God would cause some type of natural disaster or the like just to convince me to seek salvation. And I find the whole idea to be rather self-centered, to be honest. What about the salvation of the people killed to teach me a lesson?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I think this is a question of interpretation. I am aware of biblical stories of God punishing certain people or groups for something they did wrong. That punishment might result in other people taking notice and receiving salvation.

I'm not aware of an idea advanced in the Bible that God would destroy innocent people to teach someone else a lesson about salvation. There may be a verse I can't remember or haven't read, but I have never taken from the Bible the idea that God would cause some type of natural disaster or the like just to convince me to seek salvation. And I find the whole idea to be rather self-centered, to be honest. What about the salvation of the people killed to teach me a lesson?

Rom 9:15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Rom 9:16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Rom 9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Rom 9:18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Rom 9:19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Rom 9:20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'

Rom 9:21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?





Isa 45:8"You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the Lord, have created it.

Isa 45:9"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'?

Isa 45:11"This is what the Lord says-- the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?

Isa 45:12It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.



God is Sovereign. You are a pot of clay and have no right to tell your Creator how to make you or how to make others.

 

[manchambo]

Rom 9:15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Rom 9:16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Rom 9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Rom 9:18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Rom 9:19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Rom 9:20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'

Rom 9:21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?





Isa 45:8"You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the Lord, have created it.

Isa 45:9"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'?

Isa 45:11"This is what the Lord says-- the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?

Isa 45:12It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.



God is Sovereign. You are a pot of clay and have no right to tell your Creator how to make you or how to make others.

That's all very interesting, but it has nothing to do with what I said. What I said was that I am not aware of Biblical evidence that God kills innocent people to teach other people a lesson. He smites the wicked for sure (in the Old Testament and under the old covenant, anyway), but I'm not aware of any verses suggesting that He would just kill anyone for the sole purpose of teaching someone else a lesson.

Again, I may be missing something, but it's not in what you just posted.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That's all very interesting, but it has nothing to do with what I said. What I said was that I am not aware of Biblical evidence that God kills innocent people to teach other people a lesson. He smites the wicked for sure (in the Old Testament and under the old covenant, anyway), but I'm not aware of any verses suggesting that He would just kill anyone for the sole purpose of teaching someone else a lesson.

Again, I may be missing something, but it's not in what you just posted.

God hardened Pharoah for God's glory.


Rom 9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."



I don't know what you mean by "kills innocent people to teach others a lesson".

What do you mean by innocent?

Haman was the child in the womb of the woman who escaped when God told Israel to kill everybody. He then grew up and attempted to destroy Israel through a decree (Esther). He, his wife, and their sons were all hung on the gallows.

 

[BernieEOD]

Being a 26 year veteran, I see things from a Military perspective. From a military point of view, 9-11 was pale when compared to what the USAF has done to just one of many cities. When we carpet bomb, fire bomb, atomic bomb, or cluster bomb cities killing civilians by the tens if not hundreds of thousands, we refer to it as "Strategic bombing" AKA a viable act of war. When someone returns the favor, it is a horrible act of terrorism.

It is also arrogant to proclaim "We have done nothingto deserve this!" This is like the Book of Job in reverse. While it is wrong to assume everyone who suffers is doing so in just desert for some sin they commited, it is also wrong to proclaim "We have not sinned and therfore don't deserve this!"
America as been a arrogant empire since 1899. We have imposed our ways upon other nations since then. Following WW2, we arrogantly proclaimed "Were it not for us, you would all be chanting sieg Hiel! So you WILL do things our way!"
As such, we are not as innocent as many would self rightiously proclaim.
This idea that everything was ok until Obama was elected is also wrong. God is not a mascott for any political party. Nobody assumes power without Gods permission. Nobody! id has been said that God appoints only two types of leaders. Leaders who are better than what we deserve and ones who are exactly what we deserve. It has been a long time since we had any of the former.

 

[Nadiine]

Being a 26 year veteran, I see things from a Military perspective. From a military point of view, 9-11 was pale when compared to what the USAF has done to just one of many cities. When we carpet bomb, fire bomb, atomic bomb, or cluster bomb cities killing civilians by the tens if not hundreds of thousands, we refer to it as "Strategic bombing" AKA a viable act of war. When someone returns the favor, it is a horrible act of terrorism.

It is also arrogant to proclaim "We have done nothingto deserve this!" This is like the Book of Job in reverse. While it is wrong to assume everyone who suffers is doing so in just desert for some sin they commited, it is also wrong to proclaim "We have not sinned and therfore don't deserve this!"
America as been a arrogant empire since 1899. We have imposed our ways upon other nations since then. Following WW2, we arrogantly proclaimed "Were it not for us, you would all be chanting sieg Hiel! So you WILL do things our way!"
As such, we are not as innocent as many would self rightiously proclaim.
This idea that everything was ok until Obama was elected is also wrong. God is not a mascott for any political party. Nobody assumes power without Gods permission. Nobody! id has been said that God appoints only two types of leaders. Leaders who are better than what we deserve and ones who are exactly what we deserve. It has been a long time since we had any of the former.

Well then.... I guess the Christians DESERVED to be thrown to
the lions for sport. thanks for straightening that out for me.

While God is not a mascott for any political parties, a good number
of one party is not as hostile to Him and His teachings... or seeking to obliterate Him from their culture at every opportunity they find.

A President CAN create a culture (thru law) that supports
rebellion to God and His standard. He's still new yet, there's ALOT
more in store for us.