McCain Avoids Vietnam Vets Tough Questions

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Cosmic Charlie

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Due respect to McCain's service and everything:

I just don't understand how being tortured qualifies you to become president or for that matter instantly instills you with good character.

McCain voted against a bill that would stop the CIA for using torture, voted against every Vet bill put in front of him for about the last 20 years, thinks war is and (for all indications) should be a more or less constant state for America, and has a guy who is co-chair that has come out and said the American are just a bunch of whiners about the economy.

Ya know, why does ANYONE think this guy is a good choice. ?
 
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isshinwhat

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I hope you take some time and listen carefully to Retired General Wesley Clark on the matter, who is far more qualified to discuss it than you or I, and he has exercised judgment in wartime.

You are talking about the same General Wesley Clark who was fired from his job as Supreme Allied Commander, Europe due to intergrity and character issues, right? Maybe we shouldn't be listening to him when it comes time to talk about judgment...
 
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isshinwhat

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McCain left the Navy as a Captain from the Office of Legislative Affairs. While we should honor his military service and acknowledge what it says about him and his character, we should not overstate its relevance to matters of national security.

What I get from this is that you have no clue what kind of training an operational Naval Officer, especially a combat proven Naval Aviator, has with respect to national security. Being a Captain in the Navy is nothing to scoff at... Add to that excellent foundation years of public service afterwards and you have a pretty experienced individual who knows a thing or two about national security.
 
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isshinwhat

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I just don't understand why McCain doesn't want to take care of Veterans...

He was sponsoring a revision of the GI Bill earlier this year, geo. In addition, He voted for an additional 1.5 Billion dollars to cover veterans healthcare betwen 2004 and 2006 alone. Also, what about TriCare for Life? You can't just look at what he votes against... You have to look at what he votes for...
 
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SolomonVII

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The image that the NewYork Times projects of the vet as being a busted, dysfunctional victim of the war does a great disservice to the honor of America's fiinest.
It speaks volumes that those OBOB posters that are veterans stand heads and shoulders above the crowd.

It is not said often enough just how much the world is indebted to American Armed Forces.
But that does not make it any less true.
We are all indebted.

God bless you for your service, and God bless John McCain for his service too, and the fine example that he left of about the tremendous character invovled in being an America soldier.
 
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geocajun

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You are talking about the same General Wesley Clark who was fired from his job as Supreme Allied Commander, Europe due to intergrity and character issues, right? Maybe we shouldn't be listening to him when it comes time to talk about judgment...
The irony of you taking that stance on General Clark ...
 
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Fantine

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Being a Captain in the Navy is nothing to scoff at... Add to that excellent foundation years of public service afterwards and you have a pretty experienced individual who knows a thing or two about national security.

President Jimmy Carter, a graduate of Annapolis, was also a Naval Officer from 1946-1953. He graduated in the top 10% of his class at Annapolis.

He resigned his commission in 1953 when his father died because he was needed at home to take over the family farming business.

I know that many of you don't like Carter (I call him a Baptist saint, personally) but I'm relating this to add a little balance to the discussion.

I think that in both their lives and careers, Carter and McCain have exerted moral leadership.
 
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geocajun

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Just pointing out something you and others might not have been aware of, bud. Nevertheless, your using Wesley Clark as a source to judge McCain's judgment when Clark was fired for his lack of it... Now THAT is irony. :D Not to mention more than a little funny...
This tells about his distinguished record: http://securingamerica.com/highlights

"In March of 1999 as Slobodan Milosevic unleashed his army and police on the people of Kosovo, Gen. Wesley Clark, NATO's supreme commander, was given the first military mission of its kind, directing the forces of a 19 nation alliance to end a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing. The stakes were monumental.


"Almost a million people had been driven from their homes solely because of their ethnic and religious background. Success would save lives, strengthen NATO, advance the cause of freedom, democracy and unity in Europe. Failure would leave much of the continent awash in a sea of refugees and end the 20th century on a note of helpless indignation in the face of evil.


"Wes Clark well understood the perils of the Balkans for he had already played a vital role in ending the war in Bosnia and beginning the long process of building a stable, multi-ethnic democracy in that country. He summoned every ounce of his experience and expertise as a strategist, soldier and a statesman to wage our campaign in Kosovo. He prevailed miraculously without the loss of a single combat casualty.


"At the apex of a long and distinguished military career that goes back to his outstanding performance as a cadet at West Point over 30 years ago, he was assigned a challenge many experts thought was mission impossible. Instead, thanks to Gen. Clark, we now can declare it mission accomplished."


-President Bill Clinton, August 9, 2000


"As the friendly force maneuvered through the treacherous region, it was suddenly subjected to an intense small arms fire from a well-concealed insurgent element. Although painfully wounded in the initial volley, Captain Clark immediately directed his men on a counter-assault of the enemy positions. With complete disregard for his personal safety, Captain Clark remained with his unit until the reactionary force arrived and the situation was well-in-hand. His courageous initiative and exemplary professionalism significantly contributed to the successful outcome of the engagement. Captain Clark's unquestionable valor in close combat against a hostile force is in keeping with the finest traditions of the military service and reflects great credit upon himself, the 1st Infantry Division, and the United States Army."


-From the Award of the Silver Star, as presented to Capt. Clark after he was wounded in battle in Vietnam, February 26, 1970

"Major Clark is one of the most outstanding officers of his grade in the U.S. Army...an officer of impeccable character with a rare blend of personal qualities and professional attributes which uniquely qualify him as a soldier-scholar. While he has the intellectual grasp of world affairs attained only by the top scholars in the field, he projects soldierly qualities of strength, character, leadership, and above all an unyielding sense of personal responsibility. It is this sense of responsibility which clearly sets him apart from his contemporaries. [He] has the intellectual, moral and physical stamina, coupled with an unrelenting quest for excellence, which insures the completion of every task to near perfection. Major Clark's earnestness, sincerity of purpose and absolute dedication convey a moral force in his work which gives him a significant voice in this headquarters..."


-General Alexander M. Haig, Jr., July 19, 1978
"Wes Clark has the character and depth to be another Marshall or Eisenhower in time of war."


-Brigadier General William W. Crouch, March 16, 1988
"Professional and moral attributes are impeccable. Strong in all areas. Best leader-thinker in the Army....a great leader who takes care of soldiers and families.... He has it all and has done it better than anyone else."


-General Edwin Burba, Jr., March 20, 1992

"Clark exhibits the best balance of professional ethics of any officer I know. Particularly noteworthy is his demonstrated selfless dedication to his men, his unit, and the Army. He exhibits absolute integrity of word, deed... he establishes and observes scrupulous ethical and moral standards."


-Colonel Lester E. Bennett, June 2, 1980

"Major Clark is the most able White House Fellow I have known during my seven years in Washington...He brought to his work a brilliant mind and rare common sense. He has initiative, style, imagination, moral courage, and integrity-each in extraordinary degree...He has a rare sensitivity to others and a remarkable ability to motivate and lead them....He is totally dedicated to public service as a military officer."


-James T. Lynn, Director, Office of Management and Budget, July 8, 1976

"He is unquestionably one in a million. A professional whose perceptions are correct, whose plans are thorough and complete, whose executions are artistic, and whose success is inevitable....I have never been more impressed with an officer's talent and dedication. He should rank with men like Douglas MacArthur, Maxwell Taylor, Creighton Abrams..."


-Colonel Charles G. Prather IV, June 23, 1977

"Major Clark is the most outstanding Major I have ever seen. Brilliant, innovative, hardworking, and extremely enthusiastic, professional in every respect - I can not praise him too highly....The fact that General Haig selected him for his personal staff is indicative of his caliber. Further, his gracious wife is a distinct asset to him and to the Army."


-Brigadier General Clyde W. Spence Jr., March 7, 1978
 
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isshinwhat

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...geo... you can google all you want, but I know people that were there. Were it not for Gen. Mike Jackson, Clark's Deputy Commander in Bosnia, we would have been in WWIII because of Pristina and he got fired for it... Now go google that and tell me why I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, but I stand by my statement that Gen. Clark is no golden boy who should be running his mouth off about good judgment in international politics.

Not good enough? What about Clark, 3rd from the left, hanging out with Ratko Mladic, 2nd from left, swapping hats for a photo op, all with the knowledge that the State Department didn't want him there because Mladic was being investigated for crimes against humanity. That little stunt almost ended his career, but he managed to end it not too much later, anyway...

Mladic-Clark.jpg
http://www.command-post.org/2004/2_archives/Mladic-Clark.jpg
 
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JoabAnias

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You were basically stating that being in the service somehow makes one more self-aware, dutiful, and honorable.

Then you misunderstood. I said it was a good way, not superior to other ways. Facing mortality and building value for life isn't germane to the military. Doctors and nurses, heck even insurance agents do it every day and some still loose a value for life and become abortionists and must deny coverage for example. Its part of the human condition. One thing military service does give is a perspective and insight into the workings of government and its structure that isn't found in civilian life for the most part. Just as you doing your own job gives you insights into it that I would not have by reading about it. Not that it can't be gained in other ways or again that military service is superior but its unique and is relevant to national defense in such a practical way that in a crunch (like an attack) it could make all the difference in decisiveness. This is why Bin Laden wasn't intercepted - Indecision when it mattered most. Unless of course you believe there was nothing Clinton could have done to prevent 9/11. I know better.
 
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JoabAnias

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It gives them experience on what it is like to fight in a war. That is a far different thing. I did explain that in the post you obviously didn't read.

Additionaly here is General Wesley Clark explaining the same thing:

War's are fought for political ends. What do you think that means? War's aren't fought for war's sake - if they were then the soldier would be qualified.

I hope you take some time and listen carefully to Retired General Wesley Clark on the matter, who is far more qualified to discuss it than you or I, and he has exercised judgment in wartime.

Your ad hominem saying I didn't read something because I didn't dispute it and that war is fought for political ends is indicative of a lack of understanding which prevents me from pursuing what you think Clark polar says because your likely to have different inexperienced insights there as well.

If you want to understand national defense then you will have to listen more to the bigger holistic picture than trying to explain what you have no experience with in the first place. There is a time to be defensive and offensive. In those life or death instances politics mean diddly because there isn't time for debate.
 
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BAFRIEND

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President Jimmy Carter, a graduate of Annapolis, was also a Naval Officer from 1946-1953. He graduated in the top 10% of his class at Annapolis.

He resigned his commission in 1953 when his father died because he was needed at home to take over the family farming business.

I know that many of you don't like Carter (I call him a Baptist saint, personally) but I'm relating this to add a little balance to the discussion.

I think that in both their lives and careers, Carter and McCain have exerted moral leadership.

Without a doubt. Jimmy Carter's first thing he did when he got in the White House was cancell dozens of pork barrel projects that made him an enemy from coast to coast of all the folks who for years enjoyed ripping off the taxpayers.

Jimmy Carter made a simple promise to the American public, that was he would never lie to them and he never did. Remember when Bush said the Rumsfield was on to stay and then days later fired him ? He acknowledged he lied but with a big smirk on his face said he had to lie to the American public about Rumfsield. He is a disgrace, one of the few low lifes I have ever had the misfortune of seeing actually be proud of a lie.
 
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BAFRIEND

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Indecision when it mattered most. Unless of course you believe there was nothing Clinton could have done to prevent 9/11. I know better.

FYI- Bush was president for 9/11. Some security analysts were shocked and amazed at how Bush brushed them and their data aside when they presented warnings about impending doom.

And on 9/11, when the whole country was in shock and turmoil Bush was nowhere to be found. He took off in chicken 1. Later, he would don a Navy flight suit and pose with fighter pilots on the flight deck af an aircraft carrier.

Compare that to Jimmy Carter who was told by nuclear regulators and inspectors that if he went to Three mile Island he would probably be killed by the malfunctioning reactor. Jimmy Carter went straight into the control room at ground zero and encouraged the staff. Did Carter underestimate the danger ? He was the executive officer on board a nuclear powered submarine and he is a nuclear engineer so he knew the danger.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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What I get from this is that you have no clue what kind of training an operational Naval Officer, especially a combat proven Naval Aviator, has with respect to national security. Being a Captain in the Navy is nothing to scoff at... Add to that excellent foundation years of public service afterwards and you have a pretty experienced individual who knows a thing or two about national security.


Ok, I need to get this straight in my head:

The shot down Naval Aviator, who graduated at the bottom of his class and was captured, tortured and then hung around for a while until he was released, then started a political career one of the highlights of which was to be sanctioned by his fellow Congressmen as a active participate and the Keating Five (Which to refresh everyone's memory was a scandal that cost us taxpayers about half a billion dollars), he knows everything there is to know about national security.


The Lt. General who was the supreme allied commander during the Bosnian Civil War, he knows nothing about national security and his career should be ignored.

Got it.
 
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geocajun

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Your ad hominem saying I didn't read something

You really need to study up on logic and critical thinking before throwing around terms like ad hominem. Obviously you don't know what it means.

because I didn't dispute it and that war is fought for political ends is indicative of a lack of understanding which prevents me from pursuing what you think Clark polar says because your likely to have different inexperienced insights there as well.
If you want to understand national defense then you will have to listen more to the bigger holistic picture than trying to explain what you have no experience with in the first place. There is a time to be defensive and offensive. In those life or death instances politics mean diddly because there isn't time for debate.
It really doesn't matter if I've been to war or not. I know the difference between operative soldiers and decision makers. McCain has never been a decision maker in a war situation, and simply having been an operative soldier does not qualify someone to lead at all, much less at the level of the presidency.
Your indignation on the matter of my lack of experience in war disqualifying my statements & ability to discuss this (which is actually a real ad hominem btw) magnifies your weak argument since it seems to be the best you've got.
 
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