Christian Wicca, or Wiccan Christianity

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I think you can if you don't limit God to just three persons, but an infinite number of possible persons with still one essence.

That, and adopt the Eastern view of the Incarnation in that Original Sin doesn't exist and Christ came to show man how to become God, not to become a sacrifice for sin payment.

 

[sidhe]

Since April, 1974.
They were adopted by the Council of American Witches in April 1974, and are posted on numerous websites all over the internet. It is, in fact, even listed as a sacred text in the "Wiccan Book of Shadows."

Principle 6 rejects authority.
Principle 10 rejects Christianity.

*sigh*

6: We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.

Rejecting authoritarian hierarchy <> Rejecting Authority.

You're Baptist, you rejected the authoritarian hierarchy of the historic episcopate. You still acknowledge the authority of those with "greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership."

I already adressed Principle 10, but...again...

10: Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the only way", and have sought to deny freedom to others and to surpress other ways of religious practice and belief.

Issues with those who supress religious freedom <> denial of Christianity mandatory part of belief

Actually, what you say principle 10 says, and what it actually says, are so wildly divergent that either you didn't read it yourself and trusted what someone else said, or you're making things up as you go along.

Again, just because the words "deny" and "Christianity" appear in the same sentence, doesn't mean it says "deny Christianity."

There's a certain irony in my defending wicca...hopefully, people who know me well will appreciate it.

ETA: Reference! http://www.geocities.com/phoenix_mystic159/13Principles.html *NOTE* I do not promote wicca. Ever.

 

[sidhe]

I'm just seeing where this post shows up, since I actually saw a thread where things are appearing in linear time, as opposed to R'lyeh time.

 

[sidhe]

Alright, since we have left the Event Horizon, and returned to linear time...allow me to restate this...

Since April, 1974.
They were adopted by the Council of American Witches in April 1974, and are posted on numerous websites all over the internet. It is, in fact, even listed as a sacred text in the "Wiccan Book of Shadows."

Principle 6 rejects authority.
Principle 10 rejects Christianity.

*sigh*

6: We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.

Rejecting authoritarian hierarchy <> Rejecting Authority.

You're Baptist, you rejected the authoritarian hierarchy of the historic episcopate. You still acknowledge the authority of those with "greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership."

I already addressed Principle 10, but...again...

10: Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the only way", and have sought to deny freedom to others and to surpress other ways of religious practice and belief.

Issues with those who supress religious freedom <> denial of Christianity mandatory part of belief

Actually, what you say principle 10 says, and what it actually says, are so wildly divergent that either you didn't read it yourself and trusted what someone else said, or you're making things up as you go along.

Again, just because the words "deny" and "Christianity" appear in the same sentence, doesn't mean it says "deny Christianity."

There's a certain irony in my defending wicca...hopefully, people who know me well will appreciate it.

ETA: Reference! http://www.geocities.com/phoenix_mystic159/13Principles.html *NOTE* I do not promote wicca. Ever.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Your icon says you are a Muslim.
Do you think that you, as a Muslim, could combine Wicca and the Muslim faith?
Or that you could combine the Muslim faith and Christianity?

You could, but the resulting religion would be as dissimilar to Islam as Islam and Wicca are to each other in the first place.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The most fundamental teaching of Christianity is that God, Jehovah, is the King of Kings, The Almighty, the beginning and the end, and that He will have no other Gods before Him. That Christ is the only way to the Father.

That's not what I've heard. Apparently, Christianity is summarised by two laws: love thy neighbour, and love thy God. The emphasis on monotheistic salvation is, I think, somewhat secondary.

One of the 13 principles of Wicca is the refusal to recognize any authority.

Fortunately, Wicca is not defined by the 13 Principles.

Another of the Wiccan principles is a rejection of Christ as the only way. It specifically address Christianity.

It addresses Christianity as an example. The full text is:

"#10: Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be &#8216;the only way&#8217; and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief."

Ergo, one cannot be a Wiccan and be a Christian.

Agreed. But not for the reasons you post.

Since April, 1974.
They were adopted by the Council of American Witches in April 1974, and are posted on numerous websites all over the internet.

It is interesting to note that the Council disbanded in 1974 as well. The 13 Principles were definitive of Witchcraft (and, by extension, Wicca), in the 1970s, and are by no means the Catechism of modern Wicca. Indeed, Wicca is noted for is utter lack of a central governing body, and the only universally recognised sacred text is the Wiccan Rede.

It is, in fact, even listed as a sacred text in the "Wiccan Book of Shadows."

Since there is no universald Book of Shadows, your point is moot. Even in ritualistic traditions such as Gardenerian Wicca, there are variations among their respective Books.

Principle 6 rejects authority.
Principle 10 rejects Christianity.

Principle #10 says nothing of the sort, and the Principles themselves are not the Wiccan version of the Nicene Creed. Sigh.

 

[KhlulHloo]

I'm just seeing where this post shows up, since I actually saw a thread where things are appearing in linear time, as opposed to R'lyeh time.

Welcome to my existence in the sunken city where the angles are wrong *sigh*
Have you ever seen a 7-dimensional clock? That's what we have...down here. Fortunately, I just got the usermanual a few months ago

 

[TexasSky]

Alright, since we have left the Event Horizon, and returned to linear time...allow me to restate this...



*sigh*



Rejecting authoritarian hierarchy <> Rejecting Authority.

You're Baptist, you rejected the authoritarian hierarchy of the historic episcopate. You still acknowledge the authority of those with "greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership."

I already addressed Principle 10, but...again...



Issues with those who supress religious freedom <> denial of Christianity mandatory part of belief

Actually, what you say principle 10 says, and what it actually says, are so wildly divergent that either you didn't read it yourself and trusted what someone else said, or you're making things up as you go along.

Again, just because the words "deny" and "Christianity" appear in the same sentence, doesn't mean it says "deny Christianity."

There's a certain irony in my defending wicca...hopefully, people who know me well will appreciate it.

ETA: Reference! http://www.geocities.com/phoenix_mystic159/13Principles.html *NOTE* I do not promote wicca. Ever.

Sidhe,

<staff edit>

You are wrong.

I did not reject authority when I became a Christian. I embraced the authority of Christ and of God Jehovah.
I chose the Baptist denomination as a place to worship God because I believed it came closer to teaching the principles of Christianity I found in God's holy word.

<staff edit>

Wiccan Child,

<staff edit> your interpretation of Christianity is - without a doubt - wrong.

As to whether or not the 13 principles define Wicca - argue with the American Council of Wtiches - not me.
I am only quoting what the group that presumes to represent Wicca have published all over the internet as the principles of Wicca, and which other self proclaimed witches all over the internet proclaim is their faith. <staff edit>

The fact remains, you cannot worship Christ and reject Christ. You cannot worship Christ and be a follower of Christ and declare yourself the ultimate power in the universe. You cannot worship Christ and be a follower of Christ and declare anything OTHER than God Almighty to be the ultimate authority.

The overall message of Wicca, for centuries, has been that man has the power. That ~IS~ the message than Satan taught in the Garden of Eden. It is the message that Satan tried to tempt Christ with.

<staff edit>

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Alright, since we have left the Event Horizon, and returned to linear time...allow me to restate this...



*sigh*



Rejecting authoritarian hierarchy <> Rejecting Authority.

You're Baptist, you rejected the authoritarian hierarchy of the historic episcopate. You still acknowledge the authority of those with "greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership."

I already addressed Principle 10, but...again...



Issues with those who supress religious freedom <> denial of Christianity mandatory part of belief

Actually, what you say principle 10 says, and what it actually says, are so wildly divergent that either you didn't read it yourself and trusted what someone else said, or you're making things up as you go along.

Again, just because the words "deny" and "Christianity" appear in the same sentence, doesn't mean it says "deny Christianity."

There's a certain irony in my defending wicca...hopefully, people who know me well will appreciate it.

ETA: Reference! http://www.geocities.com/phoenix_mystic159/13Principles.html *NOTE* I do not promote wicca. Ever.

That's not what I've heard. Apparently, Christianity is summarised by two laws: love thy neighbour, and love thy God. The emphasis on monotheistic salvation is, I think, somewhat secondary.


Fortunately, Wicca is not defined by the 13 Principles.


It addresses Christianity as an example. The full text is:

"#10: Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be ‘the only way’ and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief."


Agreed. But not for the reasons you post.


It is interesting to note that the Council disbanded in 1974 as well. The 13 Principles were definitive of Witchcraft (and, by extension, Wicca), in the 1970s, and are by no means the Catechism of modern Wicca. Indeed, Wicca is noted for is utter lack of a central governing body, and the only universally recognised sacred text is the Wiccan Rede.


Since there is no universald Book of Shadows, your point is moot. Even in ritualistic traditions such as Gardenerian Wicca, there are variations among their respective Books.


Principle #10 says nothing of the sort, and the Principles themselves are not the Wiccan version of the Nicene Creed. Sigh.

Both wonderful responses. Thank you for the information.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Sidhe,

Do not ever presume to tell me what I have or have not accepted or rejected. You do not know me. You are a member of a demonic faith. You are a child.

You are wrong.

I did not reject authority when I became a Christian. I embraced the authority of Christ and of God Jehovah.
I chose the Baptist denomination as a place to worship God because I believed it came closer to teaching the principles of Christianity I found in God's holy word.

Do not presume, ever again, to tell me what I did or did not reject.

Wiccan Child,

As a practicing witch, your interpretation of Christianity is - without a doubt - wrong.

As to whether or not the 13 principles define Wicca - argue with the American Council of Wtiches - not me.
I am only quoting what the group that presumes to represent Wicca have published all over the internet as the principles of Wicca, and which other self proclaimed witches all over the internet proclaim is their faith. If you don't endorse that, support that - whatever.

The fact remains, you cannot worship Christ and reject Christ. You cannot worship Christ and be a follower of Christ and declare yourself the ultimate power in the universe. You cannot worship Christ and be a follower of Christ and declare anything OTHER than God Almighty to be the ultimate authority.

The overall message of Wicca, for centuries, has been that man has the power. That ~IS~ the message than Satan taught in the Garden of Eden. It is the message that Satan tried to tempt Christ with.

I have zero tolerance for such false teachings, whether they appear in a non-Christian forum, or on a forum that proclaims itself to be Christian.

By what power do you read minds?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Sidhe,

Do not ever presume to tell me what I have or have not accepted or rejected. You do not know me. You are a member of a demonic faith. You are a child.

You are wrong.

I did not reject authority when I became a Christian. I embraced the authority of Christ and of God Jehovah.
I chose the Baptist denomination as a place to worship God because I believed it came closer to teaching the principles of Christianity I found in God's holy word.

Do not presume, ever again, to tell me what I did or did not reject.

Wiccan Child,

As a practicing witch, your interpretation of Christianity is - without a doubt - wrong.

As to whether or not the 13 principles define Wicca - argue with the American Council of Wtiches - not me.
I am only quoting what the group that presumes to represent Wicca have published all over the internet as the principles of Wicca, and which other self proclaimed witches all over the internet proclaim is their faith. If you don't endorse that, support that - whatever.

The fact remains, you cannot worship Christ and reject Christ. You cannot worship Christ and be a follower of Christ and declare yourself the ultimate power in the universe. You cannot worship Christ and be a follower of Christ and declare anything OTHER than God Almighty to be the ultimate authority.

The overall message of Wicca, for centuries, has been that man has the power. That ~IS~ the message than Satan taught in the Garden of Eden. It is the message that Satan tried to tempt Christ with.

I have zero tolerance for such false teachings, whether they appear in a non-Christian forum, or on a forum that proclaims itself to be Christian.

By what power do you read minds?

 

[morningstar2651]

The most fundamental teaching of Christianity is that God, Jehovah, is the King of Kings, The Almighty, the beginning and the end, and that He will have no other Gods before Him. That Christ is the only way to the Father.

One of the 13 principles of Wicca is the refusal to recognize any authority.

Another of the Wiccan principles is a rejection of Christ as the only way. It specifically address Christianity.


Ergo, one cannot be a Wiccan and be a Christian.

This is a misconception. Please refer to my quotation of Gerald Gardner on the subject of Christian Witches.

I can see no real reason why one cannot be a good enough though unorthodox Christian and a witch at the same time. It seems to me easier than being a Christian and a Communist. The Christian who thinks reincarnation heresy, who will not countenance any form of superstition and belongs to the Sabbath Day Observance League, would certainly not make a good witch.

The Council of American Witches does not hold the authority to speak for anyone but themselves. I've never met a member of this council, nor have I received a ballot to vote for representation. Their principles have nothing to do with my beliefs nor my practices.

 

[Tenebrae]

...

 

[Philothei]

I think you can if you don't limit God to just three persons, but an infinite number of possible persons with still one essence.

That, and adopt the Eastern view of the Incarnation in that Original Sin doesn't exist and Christ came to show man how to become God, not to become a sacrifice for sin payment.

Are you EO then drop it stating what the Eastern orthodox believe... We do believe in the original sin and that is not the 'theosis' term... You are way off... just do not post missinformation and lies.... about something you have neither studied or understand...

 

[Philothei]

Also whether or not Christ is the sacrificial lamb ... that is in the Bible no need for me to comment... He is the ransom given to Satan...

The whole incarnation of the Lord was to 'defeat" satan and free humanity of its bontage to death and corruption, and that way man could attain theosis as we are given 'eternal life" only in that sense we attain theosis... We can never be God... only God can be God... We only become sons and daughters through 'adoption" not in essence. Since as created being we are not of the same essence of God. We can never be that.

Hope that helps in explaning further.
Philothei

 

[sidhe]

Sidhe,

Do not ever presume to tell me what I have or have not accepted or rejected. You do not know me. You are a member of a demonic faith. You are a child.

You are wrong.

I did not reject authority when I became a Christian. I embraced the authority of Christ and of God Jehovah.
I chose the Baptist denomination as a place to worship God because I believed it came closer to teaching the principles of Christianity I found in God's holy word.

Do not presume, ever again, to tell me what I did or did not reject.

Thank you.

Now, how about addressing the point of what I said, which is that you misrepresented what the 13 principles of wicca actually said.

Now, you should know that:

a) I'm not wiccan. I have a low opinion of wicca, particularly the traditionalist type. I just think that, if you're going to argue against something, argue against it based on what it actually is, and what it actually says, not based on misinformation and half-truths.

b) Ecclesiastical structure is not belief. The Episcopal church recognizes the historic episcopate. So do the Catholics. They are fairly divergent in beliefs, though not in practice. Similarly, both Baptists and the Metropolitan Community Church reject the historic episcopate, but they don't believe similarly, and are fairly dissimilar in practice as well. The historic episcopate: It's just church structure - diocese, bishops, archbishops, presiding bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, etc.

c) I didn't even know that there were "13 Principles of Wicca" until yesterday. They read like fluffbunny nonsense to me, but that's just me. They are not, in any way, violent or dangerous.

Now, explain how...

6: We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.

...says "we reject all authority," based on the phrasing that is there, and how...

10: Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the only way", and have sought to deny freedom to others and to surpress other ways of religious practice and belief.

...says "you must deny Christ," based on the actual phrasing and memes that are utilized by the author.

I really want to know how you made your interpretation. I'm big on seeing what hermeneutics and interpretive lenses people use in everyday life, and I see you're using a very different one than most anyone I've met.

If I'm wrong, demonstrate how. Do not become defensive and engage in ad hominem arguments. It just makes it appear to others that you cannot defend your original position, and are being forced to try to deflect attention from it.

Now, surely, that's not the case.

 

[sidhe]

Are you EO then drop it stating what the Eastern orthodox believe... We do believe in the original sin and that is not the 'theosis' term... You are way off... just do not post missinformation and lies.... about something you have neither studied or understand...

Just to pick a nit...the EO don't believe in Original Sin, but in the original sin. GWW was probably discussing the difference between the EO and RCC position, in that the RCC holds that the actual sin of Adam & Eve is hereditary, where as the EO hold that the consequences of that sin are hereditary (death, the ability to sin, etc.), but one is not born immediately sinful based on the actions of Adam & Eve.

The OCA on Original Sin.

Orthodox Catechumen: I technically am one.

 

[sidhe]

Welcome to my existence in the sunken city where the angles are wrong *sigh*
Have you ever seen a 7-dimensional clock? That's what we have...down here. Fortunately, I just got the usermanual a few months ago

Ia Ia YOU!

My cellphone came from R'lyeh. It drove me mad, but I'm working on the number that, when followed by the "call" button, will summon You from Your eternal slumber. The cult got tired of complicated rituals and went digital.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Wiccan Child,

As a practicing witch, your interpretation of Christianity is - without a doubt - wrong.

Whoever said I was a practicing witch? How does practicing of witchcraft make one's interpretation of Christianity necessarily wrong? I mean, Jesus did summarise all the laws in those two laws, no?

As to whether or not the 13 principles define Wicca - argue with the American Council of Wtiches - not me.
I am only quoting what the group that presumes to represent Wicca have published all over the internet as the principles of Wicca, and which other self proclaimed witches all over the internet proclaim is their faith.

But that's just it: you don't. You use the term 'witch' as if it were an adjective of 'Wicca', you wholly misrepresent the 10[sup]th[/sup] Principle, and you even misrepresent mainstream Christianity.

The overall message of Wicca, for centuries, has been that man has the power.

Since Wicca is only ~60 years old, I suggest you read up on the religion you slander. Indeed, Wicca reveres nature to the point of worship, and is a reconstruction of pre-Christian fertility cults. Reverence is placed firmly in the natural world. Placing power with humans is the message of LaVeyian Satanism, not Wicca.

That ~IS~ the message than Satan taught in the Garden of Eden. It is the message that Satan tried to tempt Christ with.

The Serpent in Eden merely tempted Eve with the promise of knowledge. But in any case, this is a tangent.

I have zero tolerance for such false teachings, whether they appear in a non-Christian forum, or on a forum that proclaims itself to be Christian.

If you find this forum detestable, I recommend you bugger off and take your hostile attitude with you. This is a forum for discussion and debate (specifically, about non-Christian religions). Noone is forcing you to stay.

 

[TexasSky]

Thank you.

Now, how about addressing the point of what I said, which is that you misrepresented what the 13 principles of wicca actually said.

Now, you should know that:

a) I'm not wiccan. I have a low opinion of wicca, particularly the traditionalist type. I just think that, if you're going to argue against something, argue against it based on what it actually is, and what it actually says, not based on misinformation and half-truths.

b) Ecclesiastical structure is not belief. The Episcopal church recognizes the historic episcopate. So do the Catholics. They are fairly divergent in beliefs, though not in practice. Similarly, both Baptists and the Metropolitan Community Church reject the historic episcopate, but they don't believe similarly, and are fairly dissimilar in practice as well. The historic episcopate: It's just church structure - diocese, bishops, archbishops, presiding bishops, metropolitans, patriarchs, etc.

c) I didn't even know that there were "13 Principles of Wicca" until yesterday. They read like fluffbunny nonsense to me, but that's just me. They are not, in any way, violent or dangerous.

Now, explain how...



...says "we reject all authority," based on the phrasing that is there, and how...



...says "you must deny Christ," based on the actual phrasing and memes that are utilized by the author.

I really want to know how you made your interpretation. I'm big on seeing what hermeneutics and interpretive lenses people use in everyday life, and I see you're using a very different one than most anyone I've met.

If I'm wrong, demonstrate how. Do not become defensive and engage in ad hominem arguments. It just makes it appear to others that you cannot defend your original position, and are being forced to try to deflect attention from it.

Now, surely, that's not the case.

Sidhe,

To say that Christ is not the only way is to deny Christ.
It is to try to call Christ a liar. Christ Himself said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except by me." God and Christ have said, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

Ergo, I stand by my statements. Semantics aside, the bottom line is that this principle 10 is rejection of Christ as the way to Salvation, rejection of God as God Almighty Jehovah.

<staff edit>

"We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy IS rejection of "all authority" including God and Christ. That is what THEY have said. And "respect of a person" is not respect for God and Christ.

<staff edit>

And the statement that their animosity towards Christians is the believe that Christ is the only way MEANS, <staff edit> - "I admit to animosity toward Christians," and "That animiosity is because they teach Christ is the only way."

Rejection of Christ as the only way is rejection of Christ.

<staff edit>

You ~are~ defending a false faith, and you ~are~ trying to create a VERY inaccurate picture of a warm and fuzzy Christian friendly faith, and that IS false teaching.

<staff edit>