The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False? (2)

[Floatingaxe]

Actually, last year, in the taw section, someone posted interpretation of a verse, and it explained so much, and made much sense in a deeper way.

"taw"?

I am sure an interpretation of many verses are important pieces of work, as put forth by the Holy Spirit. In this case, if it is used to further a false doctrine or false concept of God or His Word, then we need to flee from it. It is wise and it actually pleases God when we do.

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, it will be sad when those poor little old sinners will finally get to see the Truth as it is. Right up there in the front. The bugged out eyed ones will be in the back of the temple, wondering just how this happened. Gee, Jesus, but I was good my whole life, and this here sinner got in front of little old me? How did this happen? Didn't I profess your name and do all sorts of things for you, but actually believe you really could and would save all those billions of people? Or that Father was really THAT merciful and His Grace really was UNLIMITED, to extend beyond the grave(hell)?

Why are you blaming this on Floating as if SHE wrote the Bible? Sorry, but your attack here is at the wrong person. GOD ordains this separation becuz people LOVE the evil they are doing.
Read what God said - better yet, BELIEVE IT.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

As if God rewards evil when He's given people time to repent and turn from their sins?
Did you know that it's evil just to take God's name in vain ONE TIME? How many times do "good people" do just that in a lifetime? thousands?

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The people who think God's punishment is "overkill" are the ones who aren't viewing sin as God views it - and for what it really is.
All I see when people use those attacks are people desensitized to wickedness becuz they can't see how horrible evil actually is. We're corrupted and cannot see or understand as God does.
"So someone lied, big deal" - what does God say?

1 John 2:21
I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.

John 8:44
" You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him
Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Who are people following when they lie? SATAN - directly. Is that no big deal? This is my point- we're looking at how harmless some sins are - God sees the SOURCE and what evil is and what it produces when it's unrestrained. The fruition of sin unrestrained brings destruction - sin itself works against all that is pure & right and corrupts it.
THAT is why it must be dealt with and contained in Gehenna.
It BRINGS death.

The more people understand how detestable sin actually is (ALL OF IT), the more they'll realize why it has to be dealt with in the way it will be dealt with by God. He has to judge it - by His own law.
& it's SO serious, that Jesus had to come down from Heaven TO DIE to bring atonement. It's very serious.

HE IS HOLY, and you cannot remove or usurp His other attributes of Holiness, righteousness or justice, to just shove mercy & love over them. That would make God unjust and unloving.

The worst attrocity is ignoring Jesus Christ who paid such a high price for their soul.
Imagine having your own son do all that suffering to save somebody's life; & after he died, the person could care LESS what your son did for them & ignore it.
If you think you as a parent wouldn't be FURIOUS at their lack of thankfulness or gratitude... instead, the person makes jokes about your son, etc.
Put the shoe on the other foot - get out of yourself and view this from God's vantage point.

God IS giving people love, blessing, grace & mercy right now. More than they deserve as a matter of fact. He's no carpet to wipe feet on. Somehow people think God OWES them something becuz they're just so special. (pride).
He's owes us NOTHING but He's given us salvation & the opportunity to accept that thru the sacrifice He paid at the cross.


Hebrews 10:29
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[Nadiine]

Hebrews 3
11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
The Peril of Unbelief

12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.


15while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by Floatingaxe
Yes, it appears that they don't sit down and really read the scriptures and study them, many of them are unchurched and winging it.

Be careful..

Most of the UR I know have been in mainstream Christian Churches for many many years. Some have also studied in seminaries and colleges. Your statement is unfounded.

Actually another statement could be given about them according to some

1 Timothy 4:1
[ Apostasy ] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

or

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

 

[Nadiine]

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

Did you stop to look at the context of that verse Tavita?

Look at verse 1 that precedes verse 3:
1Cr 12:1¶Now concerning spiritual [gifts], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

This pertains to GIFTS BY THE HOLY SPIRIT that are being used by God's people IN THE CHURCH. Paul is giving them instruction on discerning who the source of the gift is & basically how to spot a counterfeit.

It isn't a blanket statement on it's own about everyone - that if they don't curse Jesus or just say a simple line "Jesus is Lord" - POOF, they're saved.
Demons believe too - a demon called Jesus "Son of the Most High God". (Mark 5:7).
(but mere belief isn't FAITH).

This is about "speaking in the Spirit of God" - in operation of GIFTS. These spiritual gifts are endowed by God's Spirit within the BELIEVER -
Paul is teaching them the principles for discerning SPIRITUAL GIFTS.
How to know if it's working in unison of God's truth. As the verse even states:
"no one speaking IN the Spirit of God"... it's very similar to God telling the people how to spot a false prophet - if the thing prophesied does not come to pass, they didn't speak for Me - it was not My word".
Same here, if someone in the church is using their spiritual gift, operating IN THE SPIRIT - they will not deny what is true of God's testimony.

The Holy Spirit will testify of Christ (John 15:26)
Glorify Christ by declaring it to us (John 16:14)

A TRUE spiritual gift will be operating by the standards given in scripture - so Paul is teaching them what the Spirit will do and NOT do when it's in operation.
As John taught, 1 John 4:1 TEST THE SPIRITS whether they be of God...

Sorry, but this statement is again yanked right outside it's context, it's a guideline for SPIRITUAL GIFTS the believers use in the church and continues for 2 more chapters on principles of spiritual gifts.

 

[Joykins]

That's true, but if you go link back, you asked for verses showing that they were resurrected, not that they were resurrected AFTER the second death. I think we can agree that this resurrection is prior to the second death.

That is not depicting a resurrection of anyone from the SECOND DEATH.
That is the resurrection of the dead unto judgment after the FIRST DEATH.
The SECOND DEATH occurs at the time of being thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE.

 

[Nadiine]

God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

The word of God which goes forth from His mouth; It shall not return to Him empty, without accomplishing what He desires, and without succeeding in the matter for which He sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand (Isaiah 14:24).

Do we believe God....or do we believe what men teach

well

Which Question Nadine...please advise

After the drive-by postings, I asked you this (which I asked you many other times in this thread):
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42725556&postcount=721

You're back to God's will again... [still] IGNORING THAT HE HAS PERMISSIVE WILL. ALLOWING us to sin and choose to rebel.

You still haven't answered my other posts:
DOES GOD WILL THAT A MOTHER ABORT HER INFANT?
DOES GOD WILL THAT A PEDOPHILE KIDNAPS, MOLESTS & MURDERS A LITTLE GIRL?
DOES GOD WILL THAT TERRORISTS BLOW PEOPLE UP OR TORTURE THEM?

If that's what God wills for them to do, He's violating His own [highest] law: love thy neighbor as thyself. HIS WILL is that all obey His commands and love one another.

 

[Hentenza]

He taught in parables to teach of course. And they weren't 'just' parables. Jesus would never invent the content of his parables... but you have to understand His subject. He was talking to Pharisee's who knew exactly what He was talking about.

Bit strange isn't it, that he's talking of heaven and hell which really isn't the mindset of the Jews. Where in the OT does it ever contrast heaven and hell... the kind of hell most christians think of as hell these days... a place of never ending torture. To the Jews hell was sheol... or simply the grave. The Lake of Fire is never mentioned at all.

If Jesus was talking of the kind of hell taught these days, why didn't the Pharisee's confront it? Why didn't anyone ask what on earth He was talking about?

Jesus understood the subject of his parables and also his audience.

Matthew 13:10-17
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.



I will touch on your second question tonight. Sorry, but have to go to work now.

 

[Nadiine]

That's true, but if you go link back, you asked for verses showing that they were resurrected, not that they were resurrected AFTER the second death. I think we can agree that this resurrection is prior to the second death.

We're asking this (sorry for all the folks that have read this repeatedly by me - but I still haven't seen it).

Background:
We are given elaborately detailed information on the whole process of judgment - how they're raised up, where they're raised to -- how books are opened up & God judging... then God sentencing certain ones (not found in the book of life) to Gehenna - an eternal place.
The same place Satan, his demons, the false prophet & Antichrist all get thrown into.

We have all that in specific detail.

The Universalists [namely who do agree there is punishment for the sin people committed] are claiming that AFTER they pay for these sins, God lets them back out of Gehenna (the FINAL destination mentioned for the lost) and they're then "saved" becuz they repented of their sins & have Faith now.

We're asking where this detailed doctrine is - teaching us in the SAME elaborate detail that it gave us as to how they got INTO Gehenna -- when they get out, what God judges in what they did to fully pay for their atonement -- & where they are sent after that.
Becuz we have at least 4-5 verses that emphatically say they "WILL NOT ENTER".
Unless the Universalist wants to claim those verses are WRONG, & they DO enter after some punishment (which the verses give NO exemption clauses or specification of any entry later), then God has to send them somewhere if it's not going to be with the compliant Believers.
So where are they released to instead??

This doctrine is based on that theory - yet there isn't ONE mention of this scenario that I know of in the Bible.
I would think if I was basing my belief on a doctrine, that I'd at the very least SEE IT TAUGHT OUTRIGHT in some specification that defines it directly.
Clearly.

What we ARE given are verses that are taken to mean this happens... most of which (if not all so far) have been effectively refuted... not to mention the preponderance of scripture evidence spelling out the opposite.

I cannot fully explain ALL of the bible truths, I cannot know everything to refute every false doctrine - the point being made here is, Universalism is alot flimsier than people are willing to admit.
MOST of it hangs on emotional ploys, lack of understanding God's attributes which work in Unison; rather than cancelling out one another so as to cease to function...
verses taken right out of their contexts, things read into verses that don't even teach what's being interpreted...

I have real big problems with all this. A few obscure verses do NOT teach an entire doctrine being spun from what we do not know.

 

[SpiritDriven]

After the drive-by postings, I asked you this (which I asked you many other times in this thread):
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42725556&postcount=721

You're back to God's will again... [still] IGNORING THAT HE HAS PERMISSIVE WILL. ALLOWING us to sin and choose to rebel.

You still haven't answered my other posts:
DOES GOD WILL THAT A MOTHER ABORT HER INFANT?
DOES GOD WILL THAT A PEDOPHILE KIDNAPS, MOLESTS & MURDERS A LITTLE GIRL?
DOES GOD WILL THAT TERRORISTS BLOW PEOPLE UP OR TORTURE THEM?

If that's what God wills for them to do, He's violating His own [highest] law: love thy neighbor as thyself. HIS WILL is that all obey His commands and love one another.

No one speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it. It is from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth. No living mortal, or any man, should offer complaint in view of his sins (Lam. 3:37-39).

Nadine am I to understand you you wish to offer complaint in view of your Sins ? because I cannot accept such a complaint.

I am not the source of both good and Evil....I offer no complaint to him who is the source of both good and evil in view of my own sins.

How else can I answer ?

 

[SpiritDriven]

I was reading about James Dobson not long ago.... he is one of these preachers that wants to save the world from everlasting burning in hell.

He was gonna change the world until they got their detailed research back....

Apparently in the 3rd world countries and other countries where the doctrine of Eternal Torment is not taught...they had the highest moral and family values.

It was in Western Society where the Doctrine of Eternal torment was most heavily taught, that is sinking into Moral decay...legislating to allow abortion, prostitution, homosexuality.

That is what happens to societies where Doctrines of Demons are taught...like Eternal Torment and Free Will.

 

[Nadiine]

No one speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it. It is from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth. No living mortal, or any man, should offer complaint in view of his sins (Lam. 3:37-39).

Nadine am I to understand you you wish to offer complaint in view of your Sins ? because I cannot accept such a complaint.

I am not the source of both good and Evil....I offer no complaint to him who is the source of both good and evil in view of my own sins.

How else can I answer ?

You've once again avoided the question.

How else can you answer? You can say "YES, God does will that the mother aborts her fetus, AND He wills that we should not murder".
Becuz by your statements that we cannot RESIST God's will, you are saying He has both the will that the woman Kills her infant - AND not kill her infant at the same time.

That's a problem - becuz people SIN in horrific ways every single day. ARE THEY DOING GOD'S WILL when they commit these sins?

It's showing you that God has a PERFECT WILL (what He wills for us - that none perish, none do evil, that all of us love one another etc.) and He has a PERMISSIVE WILL - a will that allows us to do what He does NOT want us to do = sin.

In that permissive will, He can harden pharaoh's heart further to accomplish His bigger plan. (Rom 9) For the GREATER Good; that His name be proclaimed as Deliverer of His people.
Did God WANT Pharaoh to harden? NO! It's His will that NONE perish - but to prove HE IS GOD, after Pharaoh first hardened his own heart... God enhanced his rebellion to use it for His glory.

God wills that NONE perish - but knows they will becuz He allows them to rebel and reject Him.
And WARNS of that rebellion repeatedly and what it will lead to. Eternal separation from Him.

And again, proving we cant' resist (your version of)God's will does NOT prove Universal salvation - it only helps promote Calvanism. Calvanists believe that God only chooses a select few and chooses the others for destruction.

 

[SpiritDriven]

I am not the source of all Good and Evil Nadine...perhaps you should take your complaint to him...

 

[SpiritDriven]

Actualy I have just found the answer to your complaint Nadine.....

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What hast Thou done" (Daniel 4:35).

 

[Nadiine]

I was reading about James Dobson not long ago.... he is one of these preachers that wants to save the world from everlasting burning in hell.

He was gonna change the world until they got their detailed research back....

Apparently in the 3rd world countries and other countries where the doctrine of Eternal Torment is not taught...they had the highest moral and family values.

It was in Western Society where the Doctrine of Eternal torment was most heavily taught, that is sinking into Moral decay...legislating to allow abortion, prostitution, homosexuality.

That is what happens to societies where Doctrines of Demons are taught...like Eternal Torment and Free Will.

I hate to tell you this, that's a flimsy, weak argument right there for several reasons.

Did you hear about what else they weren't being taught? Or is this what you dug out from a longer list?

1) MORALITY ISN'T SALVATION.
2) DEFINE MORALITY if they lack faith in Christ??
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
3) ATHEISTS ARE OFTEN MORAL
4) NO ONE IS GOOD
5) THE PHARISEES WERE MORAL

You're also speculating that they're moral BECUZ OF THIS DOCTRINE not being taught! AND that we don't have higher morals BECUZ OF THIS TEACHING...
Have you actually read studies on why the family is falling apart in Western culture?
It's not the hell doctrine - there are social & economic issues, as well as a DECLINE IN THE INTEREST OF RELIGION altogether.

Worse, the majority of people in America don't think they're GOING to hell if they sin becuz they don't think they even sin much... there goes that whole theory.

I'm truly amazed at the lengths you're going to to preach this doctrine with such unfounded, unsupported information - maybe a better word is dismayed.

 

[Nadiine]

Actualy I have just found the answer to your complaint Nadine.....

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What hast Thou done" (Daniel 4:35).

That's not an answer.
You're just repeating the same thing over & over -

Reread my question
Becuz by your statements that we cannot RESIST God's will, you are saying He has both the will that the woman Kills her infant - AND not kill her infant at the same time.


Yes or No: does God Will that a mother abort her baby?
Does He cause her to want to abort the fetus & He WANTS her to
kill it?

 

[Nadiine]

I am not the source of all Good and Evil Nadine...perhaps you should take your complaint to him...

God is NOT the source of Evil - He cannot sin.
Evil also isn't a created thing - evil is the absence of what is righteous/good.

Try again.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Why is it I always answer with Scripture....and you answer with personal opinion and the teachings of blind men.

 

[SpiritDriven]

No one speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it. It is from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth. No living mortal, or any man, should offer complaint in view of his sins (Lam. 3:37-39).

You either believe the word of God or you do not...dont expect me to argue about what God says above...

 

[Nadiine]

Why is it I always answer with Scripture....and you answer with personal opinion and the teaching of blind men.

I AFFIRM EVERY VERSE YOU USE -- I refuse your misinterpretations and foundationless arguments derived from them.

I'm taking YOUR interpretations and using them in actual scenarios - becuz that is what you're telling me is true!

IF we cannot resist God's will (which I agree, WE CANNOT) - THEN IS GOD WILLING THAT A MOTHER ABORT HER BABY when she goes to the abortion clinic and has it killed?

I'm applying what you're telling me about God and asking you a question.

I'm making the point that, YOU'RE ASSUMING GOD HAS ONLY ONE TYPE OF WILL. Even parents have a permissive will - they WANT the best for their child, but when the child keeps misbehaving or keeps making the same error, oftentimes a parent will step aside and let their children get themselves into some trouble that will harm them.
It happened many times w/ family friends of mine... There is more than one type of will and it's being ignored here to state that since God wills NONE to perish, THAT HE WON'T LET ANY PERISH - so ALL will be saved by God.
But scripture says otherwise elsewhere.

I'm not tossing out all the OTHER verses I have that show me something else other than how you want to use your verses.
It just doesn't work biblically. I AFFIRM every scripture you offer as TRUTH.
But it has a different true meaning than what you're ascribing to it.