Is Harry Potter Evil?

[chris777]

This isn't really the Rowling I have come to know, I don't know what she was thinking. That may not be her exact reasoning, but It's what I have come to believe.

Is their a particular reason you have "come to know her"?
the books are fruitless, and imitative of sin. Yet you have invested enough time in them, that you feel you know the author?

Have you ever felt that close to the author of the Scriptures?

Alright, so far nobody has answered when people brought it up:

Look at Pinocchio, Peter Pan, and Cinderella. EVERY one of these movies has magic in it. Do you support these as well? After all, they have magic in them, uh-oh, that's totally Anti-Christian right there. And the author of Pinocchio was even a secular man! Guess Pinocchio is the work of the devil as well, seeing as it's a movie based off of lies.

No I don't support them, they along with Chronicles of narnia, as well as Lord of the rings are all derivative, and inspired from pagan beliefs, and lore, They like harry potter have served to acclimate all people into a familiarity and comfort with the occult rather than an aversion to it.

If you are exposed to the occult on a daily basis, even if its a fictional derivative of it, it Lulls you into a sense of familiarity , and with familiarity comes friendship, and the friendship with the world, and its ways is called enmity with God.

Look at the news, the constant array of violence, and sordid gossip, have made all of whats presented common, by being common, few question the morality of it. I am 32, And while their definitely was smut on television, when I was a child, I assure you, it is more brazen , explicit, and far more common, and unreserved now than when I was a Child.
911 is another good example of a false sense of comfort, The US Government had foreknowledge of the desire of the terrorist to perform the attacks long before they actually happened, Combined with previous attacks, as well as the constant rhetoric (which is still occurring to this day) They did not at the time discern it for the threat it ended up being.
Harry potter is a forerunner of other occult , and frankly satanic sources of entertainment.
Hollywood can, does, and will tap any and every source it can to achieve revenue, many say harry potter is inaccurate, I say I guarantee you all that someone is seeking to bring real, and verifiable occult to the big screen now, I only wonder what your responses to it will be once it does occur.

 

[chris777]

That changed when I met someone who'd been heavily involved in occultism but was now a Christian, who assured me that the Harry Potter series has absolutely nothing to do with the occult - that it is just fantasy and - of course - fiction and nothing to be afraid of.

Fear of them and fiction is not exactly the proper term, revulsion would be a better fit ,as a Christian, We are told to hate sin, not fear sin. As for fantasy and fiction, well...

I'd be inclined to take the "reading Harry Potter causes people to take an interest in genuine witchcraft" far more seriously a.) if the depiction of witchcraft and wizardry had anything in common with the real thing (it doesn't, it's more to do with folkloric depictions of witchcraft - the wands and the broomsticks are the real giveaway) and b.) if there was any reliable testimony of people having turned to Wicca or Paganism through reading the books (I know of absolutely none; in contrast, I know a fair few people who have read the books, many of whom are very heavily involved in Harry Potter fandom, including a large number of Christians who have read the books and are still Christians).

Vampires are extremely stepped, in folklore, and yet their is a growing subculture of devotees to it, who know it is the creation of the imagination, yet still flock to it nonetheless, and are indeed devotees, to it, and in many ways stretch far beyond "fandom"

And whilst I enjoyed the Harry Potter books, and will probably read them again at some point, Jesus is far more important to me than any fantasy book will ever be. It is possible to enjoy the books and to keep a sense of perspective.

Their are problems with this though. while you may see them for useless fluff, not everyone else does so, nor do they give their time, devotion, and attention to whom it is due, but rather give them to this fruitless fantasy. that is a waste of time, as well as an activity, that makes the occult seem acceptable. As for perspective, do you really believe the vast majority of the books followers share your discernment as a Christian.
Its not about those who discern it , its about those who do not.

 

[Dannager]

If you are exposed to the occult on a daily basis, even if its a fictional derivative of it, it Lulls you into a sense of familiarity , and with familiarity comes friendship, and the friendship with the world, and its ways is called enmity with God.

I've read many works of fantasy, and people who are into occult stuff still weird me out. I don't find such nonsense actually offensive, but I wouldn't say that I'm "friendly" with it at all. I think you're making a generalization here that simply doesn't hold up in reality.

 

[Nadiine]

I've read many works of fantasy, and people who are into occult stuff still weird me out. I don't find such nonsense actually offensive, but I wouldn't say that I'm "friendly" with it at all. I think you're making a generalization here that simply doesn't hold up in reality.

But your worldview is VERY opposed to conservative beliefs. You also claimed that inappropriate content wasn't wrong in a thread we were in a long time ago, didn't you?

And don't you claim the bible is flawed & corrupted by man? People claim that the fantasy/occultish materials (books, games etc.) don't harm anything, yet when you look at their beliefs, they're what I consider to be in direct conflict with God's word & teachings.

Most people don't think the material is doing harm BECUZ THEY CANNOT SEE THE HARM being done by it. Unless they see a big red Satan appear in person with a long pointy tail & pitchfork announcing how he's attacking, they think they're fine.

& sadly, this forum's rules don't allow me to elaborate on my points, so I'll just leave it vague - that's how this forum has to work unfortunately.

 

[David Brider]

And you're also 37 years old - most of the focus we've made was on young KIDS.

Yes, I'm 37, but many of the people I was referring to in my post are either children now (kids of friends from church) or at least started to read the books in their mid to late teens and are now in their 20s. And as I said, not only have none of them have made any decisions to investigate paganism, but many of them are still very committed Christians.

And that's really the nub of the issue. If there's anyone, ideally a former Christian, but anyone will do, who as a result of reading the Harry Potter books has decided to convert to Wicca or Paganism, then the argument against the books might have some substance. As it is, there doesn't seem to be any indication of any such conversion.

And you and your former occultist friend...

Well, actually he's the father of a friend of mine.

...don't know the possible ramifications (current or future) of your choice to have that material - and this forum dissallows me to share why I think it has had an effect, so I'll keep silent.

I'd ask you to re-consider that; seriously, if you're in any way privy to why my choice of reading material is in any way a problem for me, then please post it here. As I've said, I've made my decision; as Scripture puts it: "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." If I genuinely felt whilst reading the books that there was any Satanic input into them, I'd have put them down. The reality is that, far from it, I actually found some strong Christian themes running throughout the books.

Anyone who knows any spiritual warfare knows this truth about deception & how Satan works. I have an Ex occultist friend (former Wiccan who did very powerful spells & evil with them) who won't go NEAR Harry Potter; herself OR her kids. She says just the opposite about it.

Perhaps you could invite her to these boards? I'd be very interested to hear her perspective first hand.

David.

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, I'm 37, but many of the people I was referring to in my post are either children now (kids of friends from church) or at least started to read the books in their mid to late teens and are now in their 20s. And as I said, not only have none of them have made any decisions to investigate paganism, but many of them are still very committed Christians.

Again, we cannot ignore the harm by it that is isn't seen yet. And, we DO have factual statements made by pagans themselves as to the heavy traffic that HP has brought.
This statement is very similar to Celtics about her kids, "since my kids didn't get preoccupied with paganism, then it isn't wrong". That's not a litmus test for what is evil.
I can lift up anything in the bible that God forbids or warns us about, and if ONE person isn't utterly destroyed by it, then can we say it's not harmful or God was wrong in what He warned us to stay away from becuz it didn't personally ruin ME or some people I know?

That's not how we're to live.

And that's really the nub of the issue. If there's anyone, ideally a former Christian, but anyone will do, who as a result of reading the Harry Potter books has decided to convert to Wicca or Paganism, then the argument against the books might have some substance. As it is, there doesn't seem to be any indication of any such conversion.

K, but we've given the quoted statement BY a pagan administrator that proves the fact that there IS a high insurgence of interest in witchcraft/paganism by HP. It IS claimed. That hasn't seemed to change anyone's mind so far...

Again, "only if it harms some" (and it indeed HAS!) seems to be what's relevant to how we observe evil today. Relativism. Yes, inappropriate content is bad for him... but it didn't make ME a sex addict, so it's ok for ME.
While they're blind to all the ways it damages a person & opens them up to demonic attack in other ways.
We cannot SEE into the spirit realms to know what we've opened up to being attacked spiritually.
I'm talking about the subtle stuff & how we start losing interest in intimacy with God, stop praying as much (or altogether), stop reading our bible, start entertaining wrong thoughts that cause us to slowly drift away from our original beliefs on things of God, etc etc.

THAT is what I'm talking about. That stuff we don't see being done. But the occult material we have or read or watch CAN open us up to that directly.

Again, if people don't see a big Red Satan literally poking them w/ a pitchfork, they think nothing's wrong with what they dabble in. & the reason I know this is becuz that's exactly how I got sucked into spiritual oppression & rebellion to God. That's how it works.
I couldn't see it or feel it, it was just slowly changing me without me even being aware until it finally hit the fan.

We need to obey God despite what we visibly see or feel.

I'd ask you to re-consider that; seriously, if you're in any way privy to why my choice of reading material is in any way a problem for me, then please post it here. As I've said, I've made my decision; as Scripture puts it: "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." If I genuinely felt whilst reading the books that there was any Satanic input into them, I'd have put them down. The reality is that, far from it, I actually found some strong Christian themes running throughout the books.

Again, "I have to feel something"... the "satanic input" is IN the material itself - why do Christians have it? Yet you have to "feel" it's a problem to BE a problem?

Perhaps you could invite her to these boards? I'd be very interested to hear her perspective first hand.

I have told her about them, but her ministry has been in missions and she travels to other countries with missions groups. Her and I did hang out together on another chat ministry for about a month when there was some heavy Satanic stuff going on there against the Christians.
Where GOD IS, Satan will be at work. Always.

She also believes these forums are very dangerous (namely to new believers & the naive) and really doesn't want a ministry or time spent in forums.
I agree with her 500%.

 

[Markus6]

No I don't support them, they along with Chronicles of narnia, as well as Lord of the rings are all derivative, and inspired from pagan beliefs, and lore, They like harry potter have served to acclimate all people into a familiarity and comfort with the occult rather than an aversion to it.

This is a good point. Both Narnia and Lord of the Rings contain folklore, mythological creatures and magic. So what's the difference? The authors were Christian and the stories were meant to be Christian allegories?

JK Rowling is a Christian (Church of Scotland) and any one who has read the last book will know that the series ended up being a Christian allegory. She didn't publically disclose her Christian beliefs previously because she thought it would make the ending obvious (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm).

I struggle with condemning HP and not Narnia and LotR. I think it's inconsistent. Chris777's position, although I don't share it, seems far more defendable to me.

 

[Nadiine]

JK Rowling is a Christian (Church of Scotland) and any one who has read the last book will know that the series ended up being a Christian allegory. She didn't publically disclose her Christian beliefs previously because she thought it would make the ending obvious (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm).

I struggle with condemning HP and not Narnia and LotR. I think it's inconsistent. Chris777's position, although I don't share it, seems far more defendable to me.

Clinton attended a Baptist church too.
Becuz someone CLAIMS Christianity or attends a Christian church it MAKES THEM ONE? If that's the case, then the Bible is clearly false when it says that FEW find eternal life and the majority take the wide path to destruction.

Rowling's writings focal points are ON THE OCCULT and about the glamorization of the occult thru witchcraft or wizardry. (we know this by the extreme spike in interest of this by young kids). While attending a school of wizardry... that is what a Christian promotes?
The glamorization & adventure of a child learning to be a full fledged WIZARD?
Where was there ANY understandable lesson in the series that witchcraft is evil?

I think the LOTR & Narnia have their issues as well - however, the focus isn't on the witchcraft or on schooling in the occult.
But I agree there are definite issues with them in the glamorization of the supernatural powers for "good". & if we HAVE screwed up, we need to repent & pray over our kids & families & be more alert for the next book or movie that promotes sorceries etc.

**But, we can't lift up 2 other movies as if it gives HP an automatic pass.
Each book/movie has to be judged separately on its own specific merits. We can't justify one becuz we watched the other! "Well, we watched the other 2 with questionable issues, therefore, we should say they're all ok so we don't look contradictory".

I'd urge all of us to use our discernment according to God's word and see things at their sources. And if we need to just stay away from it, then why not do so? Do we HAVE to read the books or see it? No we really don't.
I think this falls in the realm of "self discipline" (which is a fruit of the Spirit. Gal. 5:22-23) - maybe we just refuse to use self control over ourselves or our families?

 

[JWNEWMAN]

This is a good point. Both Narnia and Lord of the Rings contain folklore, mythological creatures and magic. So what's the difference? The authors were Christian and the stories were meant to be Christian allegories?

JK Rowling is a Christian (Church of Scotland) and any one who has read the last book will know that the series ended up being a Christian allegory. She didn't publically disclose her Christian beliefs previously because she thought it would make the ending obvious (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm).

I struggle with condemning HP and not Narnia and LotR. I think it's inconsistent. Chris777's position, although I don't share it, seems far more defendable to me.

As I've said HP is not evil he doesn't exist. What is a problem is the depiction of witchcraft and other common occult practices as being desirable. Especially since the target audience is children. Here we have the "hero" practicing witchcraft, and, in the context of the books this practice is "good". Moreover all those who don't believe in the practice of witchcraft are perceived as dullards.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I have no idea what the authors reasons were for making the hero's of her books witches and sorcerers. It may have seemed innocent to her. I'm not claiming she was intentionally doing something wrong. We've all done things with what we thought were pure motives that turned out to be skewed. This happens to be a monumental debacle. None the less, I'm not condemning her personally. I am saying I believe this was a huge mistake with possible dire consequences.

However, it may turn out that God uses this for the good and, in the end the result will be revival. That's what I'm praying for. That all the kids who get interested in the occult through these writings would see it for what it really is and would be thereby attracted to the power of God in Christ. One way that will happen is through the power of a joyful, spirit filled Christian witness. So let's all go out and shine!

 

[Nadiine]

I have no idea what the authors reasons were for making the hero's of her books witches and sorcerers. It may have seemed innocent to her. I'm not claiming she was intentionally doing something wrong. We've all done things with what we thought were pure motives that turned out to be skewed. This happens to be a monumental debacle. None the less, I'm not condemning her personally. I am saying I believe this was a huge mistake with possible dire consequences.

However, it may turn out that God uses this for the good and, in the end the result will be revival. That's what I'm praying for. That all the kids who get interested in the occult through these writings would see it for what it really is and would be thereby attracted to the power of God in Christ. One way that will happen is through the power of a joyful, spirit filled Christian witness. So let's all go out and shine!

I'd like to know why a "Christian" is studying the occult & witchcraft to accurately portray the sorcery and spirits used in a movie aimed FOR KIDS.... while not taking any time to give a moral teaching where it's wrong?
And HIDING the fact that she's supposedly a Christian till all the books are finished & the majority of the $$ was made off it? What is that??

Sorry, I don't just buy into peoples spiritual claims, I look for some fruit before I just swallow the worm.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I'd like to know why a "Christian" is studying the occult & witchcraft to accurately portray the sorcery and spirits used in a movie aimed FOR KIDS.... while not taking any time to give a moral teaching where it's wrong?
And HIDING the fact that she's supposedly a Christian till all the books are finished & the majority of the $$ was made off it? What is that??

Sorry, I don't just buy into peoples spiritual claims, I look for some fruit before I just swallow the worm.

I'm not saying she is a Christian. I'm just saying I don't know that her intent was to do harm. I don't know her. I believe she made a colossal error in judgment if she is a Christian. She could be saved, but not taught the truth regarding these matters.

Not knowing her personal testimony I can't judge her motives. It could have been laziness. In other words viewing witchcraft and folklore as an easy basis to build from to create this epic battle between "good" and "evil".

Don't get me wrong I think the outcome is a monstrosity. I can judge the work, but not knowing her personally I can't judge her. I can say she is deceived and perhaps naive and the work itself poisoned. However, though not innocent certainly, I'm not calling her a devil.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm not saying she is a Christian. I'm just saying I don't know that her intent was to do harm. I don't know her. I believe she made a colossal error in judgment if she is a Christian. She could be saved, but not taught the truth regarding these matters.

Not knowing her personal testimony I can't judge her motives. It could have been laziness. In other words viewing witchcraft and folklore as an easy basis to build from to create this epic battle between "good" and "evil".

Don't get me wrong I think the outcome is a monstrosity. I can judge the work, but not knowing her personally I can't judge her. I can say she is deceived and perhaps naive and the work itself poisoned. However, though not innocent certainly, I'm not calling her a devil.

I should of clarified that what I posted was more to Marcus's post than yours - I think we need to understand that while we all love to toss around the cliche' "do not judge", that we ARE using judgment to just make claims that people ARE Christians just becuz they claim they are.
That's still judging someone's salvation (on either side).

Absolutely we have to be real careful about what or who we judge!!! (I can't emphasize that enough), but we're also taught not to be gullible sheep that fall for a predator's lies becuz we refuse to use judgment of fruit as God commends us to do.
Be WISE as snakes and innocent as doves.

I still think something's wrong becuz this is another post of yours that I agree with. LOL

 

[chris777]

This is a good point. Both Narnia and Lord of the Rings contain folklore, mythological creatures and magic. So what's the difference? The authors were Christian and the stories were meant to be Christian allegories?

JK Rowling is a Christian (Church of Scotland) and any one who has read the last book will know that the series ended up being a Christian allegory. She didn't publically disclose her Christian beliefs previously because she thought it would make the ending obvious (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm).

I struggle with condemning HP and not Narnia and LotR. I think it's inconsistent. Chris777's position, although I don't share
it, seems far more defendable to me.

I used to want to write this sort of thing myself,(fiction)only I took an inventory of myself, and realized how deeply influenced by it I was, and I have seen thousands, who go to, and went to far greater lengths than I ever did.

I personally see the term Christian allegory as bad as the theistic evolutionist, view creation science.

Why preach the gospel of Christ without the Gospel of Christ?

Christians as a whole are dangerously ignorant of their own holy Scriptures, yet here we are with a huge support group vehemently defending a work that we all agree is fictional , but yet when it comes to the scriptures themselves, and sharing the Truth of Christ, as the only way of salvation, a live and let live attitude, and judge not lest ye be judged is often used.
I am not so shocked by those saying that they personally can discern it as fiction, as I am by their callous attitude of not caring if others could be deceived. Plus how they rally up with a vigor that you will never see them use to either share the gospel, or defend the scriptures.

Look up into Cs lewis, and Tolkien ,and their circle of friends, they were not Christians, and while the desire to share the gospel with others, is a good thing, diluting it to the point its intended audience cannot recognize it, and the secular world adopts it should be cause for further examination, if not alarm.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

The problem with depicting Christians and the supernatural in fiction is, we don't really do anything but, trust in God's power or speak by the Holy Spirit. We have no claim to fame all the glory goes to God. So there are really no hero's in Christianity.

Still it would be interesting to write a book on the premise of a character like Potter who, practicing "white witchcraft" and extolling it as virtuous in the end is shown to be only a dupe of demonic influence through the supernatural influence of God.

I knew people, white witches who were utterly stunned to discover their power was derived from the demonic. One girl was a missionaries daughter. Upon witnessing the demonic manifest in her friend she began to repent on the spot and tearfully denounce her involvement. During the encounter someone spoke in tongues. The white witch began screaming, and ran in terror out of the room. The missionaries daughter who was involved with the cult, thinking it a good and natural use of power, turned utterly pale, she happened to speak Latin and was able to interpret the message in tongues.

Quite an interesting afternoon that was.

 

[chris777]

I've read many works of fantasy, and people who are into occult stuff still weird me out. I don't find such nonsense actually offensive, but I wouldn't say that I'm "friendly" with it at all. I think you're making a generalization here that simply doesn't hold up in reality.

What are you defining as occult?
I used to go to fantasy conventions and people would run around in revealing costume, some with nudity, but since the majority did so, only the blatant were called on it, and the rest was given a wink and nod.

As for friendly, You said you were not offended, I am not offended, by such things, I am repulsed by them, thats more of what I meant, is that rather than having an aversion to activities we know are sin, we tolerate, and enjoy them in a fictional setting as entertainment.
As I asked another poster in the thread, do you personally have a line of demarcation where their are movies, books, or whatever you feel you just can't take part in?

you are weirded out by the occult, but for example what is that occult that repulses you?

I hear so many comments about how its fiction, and harmless, but no one offers up, but I draw the line at .......(fill in the blank)
This sort of attitude leads me to believe that the speaker, either has not encountered the line, or does not have one, as Markus6 stated he did not agree with me in my view of caution in these things, but he understood my consistency, as I discern it all subtly harmful, Cinderella included.(the magic involved is obviously not the power of God)
What I am trying to do is to understand a consistency in the defense of these books, from you, or anyone else who chooses to respond, as this is really a more general reply to all who defend it, rather than a specific response.

 

[TexasSky]

I have no idea if the pope read the books or not. Besides, that does not matter. One can have an opinion of the books without reading them.

I disagree that you can form an opinion without knowing what your are expressing an opinion about. You cannot really know what a book says unless you've read the book.

 

[Nadiine]

I disagree that you can form an opinion without knowing what your are expressing an opinion about. You cannot really know what a book says unless you've read the book.

Well then, can we form an opinion on other things God forbids without experiencing them personally?

I don't have to participate in something to discern if it's evil or not - my Bible is enough of a litmus test and book of commands for my guidance BEFORE I pick it up to read it.
That's why I won't read any horoscopes even for "fun" or curiosity.
It says to have nothing to do with that stuff - yet you have kids out there mimicking spell casting or other pagan rituals...

I don't have to read the books to form an opinion; namely when I see the result of it peaking the interest of kids into the occult.
I can also read the reviews of knowledgeable Christian teachers/experts who HAVE read them to give me their findings.

 

[chris777]

If I genuinely felt whilst reading the books that there was any Satanic input into them, I'd have put them down. The reality is that, far from it, I actually found some strong Christian themes running throughout the books.

Why is it Christian themes redeem this book, yet the occult is harmless?

I hear so many speak of Christian themes, (I am assuming this is your view as well so correct me if my depiction of it is wrong.)

Christian themes is Christ alone, anything else is just emotions or notions of morality.a good example of this is
Luke 11:
[11] If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
[12] Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
[13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Giving is allegedly a Christian trait, yet Jesus himself said that even the evil knew how to do it, and do it well.

we do Good works because we know Christ,
But that does not make Good works examples, of, or defining a Christian.
Their are many false religions that have altruistic teachings, yet they will all send their adherents to the pit, without Christ.

Remember Satan quoted scriptures to Jesus in the desert, does that mean Satan is somehow now a christian since he quoted the scriptures?

 

[chris777]

The problem with depicting Christians and the supernatural in fiction is, we don't really do anything but, trust in God's power or speak by the Holy Spirit. We have no claim to fame all the glory goes to God. So there are really no hero's in Christianity.

The whole hero notion is almost invariably intertwined with messiah, to be honest thats one thing that struck me as bizzare about christianity in the first place, is that Jesus just does not come off like any hero ever depicted in any other religion, or fictional notions of what a hero should be.

Still it would be interesting to write a book on the premise of a character like Potter who, practicing "white witchcraft" and extolling it as virtuous in the end is shown to be only a dupe of demonic influence through the supernatural influence of God.

Kind of reminds me of my life, in that this is what I wanted to do, was to create the next, star wars, or harry potter, and I was struck down and began to examine my beliefs during my research to write my magnum opus, and now I reject it.

I knew people, white witches who were utterly stunned to discover their power was derived from the demonic.

and that in itself is a huge danger of harry potter, no one bothers to ask the really important questions, like where exactly is this power, invocation, or spell deriving its power?
the advocates claim it in inherent to the witches, but does that not make them "gods" in their own right?, and the spells and invocations call upon the power of something, only it is not God

One girl was a missionaries daughter. Upon witnessing the demonic manifest in her friend she began to repent on the spot and tearfully denounce her involvement. During the encounter someone spoke in tongues. The white witch began screaming, and ran in terror out of the room. The missionaries daughter who was involved with the cult, thinking it a good and natural use of power, turned utterly pale, she happened to speak Latin and was able to interpret the message in tongues.

Quite an interesting afternoon that was.

Its sad that they had to experience this, but it may be the only thing to bring some out of their sins. Paul himself said to turn some over into satans hands that they might repent , and be saved,

we can only offer caution, insight, and personal experience, if they want to dismiss it, as fanaticism, and laugh in doubt, it ultimately is to their own peril, as sooner or later, they will be in the flame as we once were. I know I wouldn't listen, I am just saddened by those who are our seniors and should know better, who don't , or are just plain doubt.
The kids I understand, I am baffled by the adults.