The division in the Catholic Church (Churches)

[fhansen]

There have been Councils in the Church history that are not Vatican I or II. I don't know where I heard that no pope can be heretic, but it only makes sense.. Actually, I went to novus ordo watch website and may go there again, even though I got rather bored with the Francis is BAD stuff. I mean, tell me something about how we can get all the 3 Catholic sects together... I don't want to just talk about problems but solutions..

While no heresy or error can enter official Church teachings, I don't believe this means a pope, a less than great one for sure, can't hold heretical beliefs himself.

 

[discombobulated1]

While no heresy or error can enter official Church teachings, I don't believe this means a pope, a less than great one for sure, can't hold heretical beliefs himself.

A real pope, if he had doubts about some Catholic belief or another would keep them to himself and set them aside when making ex cathedra statements. But really, I don't think a real pope would have serious doubts. I mean, the Holy Spirit is a charism presumably given to popes when they are chosen to be such? St Peter and Christ hImself look after the Church...

things are seriously amiss in the Vatican, have been for many years

 

[discombobulated1]

Not a valid statement. See above.

Francis is a bad pope. Worst in a long long while. Dreadful.

'Murder in the 33rd Degree' by Fr Murr backs that up. If not a direct murder the shouting match between pope John Paul I and a Masonic cardinal the night he died was probably enough. We lost a good pope that night. Cardinal Gagnon had the dossier on the Masonic infiltration and it's not lost even now.

They usually hate what they don't know anything about. I've seen that over and over.

The Novus Ordo has one advantage in being in the language we understand instead of Latin. I took three years of high school Latin so I sort of understand it, but still it is an advantage to hear it in English. That's just a language issue. The bigger problem is that so much was re-composed and poorly recomposed at that. Sometimes sloppy, sometimes misleading, lacking in the richness and precision of the historical Roman Rite. That alone means the Novus Ordo needs correcting. It is VALID but it is a low pass. And it didn't help at all to have clown masses and Fr. Showoff grandstanding and self-promoting through the mass. THAT is nonsense. Do the Red. Say the Black. That's what Fr. Z says. You know who he is?

That is essentially it. I WANT to abandon it for the mess it has become but Jesus sticks with it. So I don't abandon it but grieve over it and pray for it and do what little I can to cooperate in fixing it.

Thanks, it was interesting reading this. Most of the time when I speak on these issues, it seems most do not understand or.. worse, may not care? God knows.

In any case, I have never heard of that Murder in the 33rd Degree. Is that a book? I would love to read it, but I have read other books on the topic of the death of JP the first. It doesn't take much investigating IMO to realize that things were out of control the night the pope died. And I don't think his health was so bad that an argument, even with Bugnini, would cause his death.

Anyway we have what we have... you wouldn't believe what I myself have been through because of all the changes made at V2 and subsequently. Maybe some day I will tell my story some way or another but most people will likely not believe it...

 

[discombobulated1]

There's nothing eternal about the Latin Mass, or the Mass in Hebrew, or Mandarin. They are all convention, traditions of men: matters of practice. We don't worship liturgy. That concept would be divisive-and has been so.

Today the Vatican worships leftism in my pov

 

[fhansen]

A real pope, if he had doubts about some Catholic belief or another would keep them to himself and set them aside when making ex cathedra statements. But really, I don't think a real pope would have serious doubts. I mean, the Holy Spirit is a charism presumably given to popes when they are chosen to be such? St Peter and Christ hImself look after the Church...

things are seriously amiss in the Vatican, have been for many years

Nah, other than to say that things have been seriously amiss in humanity since the beginning and, related to this fact, no pope has the gift of impeccability. He has the gift of infallibly in the office of the papacy, when, ex cathedra, he declares dogma. All teachers should be the cream of the crop spiritually speaking, and will be held more highly accountable, But they can also fail at times personally in any case; they're not God.

 

[Valletta]

A real pope, if he had doubts about some Catholic belief or another would keep them to himself and set them aside when making ex cathedra statements. But really, I don't think a real pope would have serious doubts. I mean, the Holy Spirit is a charism presumably given to popes when they are chosen to be such? St Peter and Christ hImself look after the Church...

things are seriously amiss in the Vatican, have been for many years

Things are seriously amiss in the world.

 

[discombobulated1]

Nah, other than to say that things have been seriously amiss in humanity since the beginning and, related to this fact, no pope has the gift of impeccability. He has the gift of infallibly in the office of the papacy, when, ex cathedra, he declares dogma. All teachers should be the cream of the crop spiritually speaking, and will be held more highly accountable, But they can also fail at times personally in any case; they're not God.

The Church is not the world

or didn't used to be anyhow

 

[fhansen]

Today the Vatican worships leftism in my pov

I go by the Church teachings. The NO doesn't fit the category of leftism, BTW. And the recent "CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS" from the Vatican should help clear up some concerns.

 

[fhansen]

The Church is not the world

or didn't used to be anyhow

It's in the world, and it's made up of imperfect human beings-always has been-all of them imperfect. That's why we need charisms-to ensure that the deposit of faith is preserved intact despite our weaknesses, limitations, and sin.

 

[jas3]

There's nothing eternal about the Latin Mass, or the Mass in Hebrew, or Mandarin. They are all convention, traditions of men: matters of practice. We don't worship liturgy. That concept would be divisive-and has been so.

What do you mean by "worshipping" a liturgy?

 

[chevyontheriver]

A real pope, if he had doubts about some Catholic belief or another would keep them to himself and set them aside when making ex cathedra statements.

Yes. Of course. Or, a real pope would choke on a heretical ex cathedra statement. Many ways the Holy Spirit could ensure a limited infallibility

But really, I don't think a real pope would have serious doubts. I mean, the Holy Spirit is a charism presumably given to popes when they are chosen to be such? St Peter and Christ hImself look after the Church...

Is this to say the election of a pope is itself an infallible act? I don't think that position is sustainable.

things are seriously amiss in the Vatican, have been for many years

The 'Infiltration' hypothesis is likely quite true. Bella Dodd said so. Taylor Marshall documented it. Fr Murr concurs. Catholicism is a pedigreed system. But some mutations were introduced. Some careful breeding of priests, bishops, and cardinals will be needed to bring us back to the pedigree again.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I go by the Church teachings.

I am with you on that. And I mean teachings in writing.

When it comes to liturgy we have General Instruction to the Roman Missal and
CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM.

Also the teachings no one seems to know about COMPENDIUM OF THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH.

Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church

Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church

www.vatican.va

 

[fhansen]

What do you mean by "worshipping" a liturgy?

When the liturgy becomes the most important thing that it's virtually idolized. we become more focused on the externals than the real purpose of the Mass.

 

[zippy2006]

It is more than that, it is the primary means of expressing the orthodox faith and a meeting between the particular church and the eternal Church.

Good posts. I want to point out that there is still a great deal of "liturgical seriousness" in Catholicism proper, especially following Ratzinger's liturgical theology. Such Catholics often refer to themselves as conservative (as opposed to "traditional").

This may have been obvious, but I wanted to correct a trend in the thread whereby it would seem that one needs to go outside of Catholicism proper, to the SSPX or elsewhere, to find liturgical seriousness. Francis has harmed the liturgical seriousness of the Church, but the work of his predecessors still has a lot of staying power.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I will refrain from commenting because I was following you and understanding all you said UNTIL

this last sentence or 2.

Can you help me understand this?

 

[The Liturgist]

When the liturgy becomes the most important thing that it's virtually idolized. we become more focused on the externals than the real purpose of the Mass.

That obviously has not happened in the case of the Traditional Latin Mass and is rather frankly something of a canard. The real issue as I see it for traditional Catholics is that the Novus Ordo in its present form fails to adhere to the specifications of Vatican II given in Sacrosanctum Concilium; it is a highly defective liturgy which ruptured continuity with the rest of the church, and which should itself be replaced by something more beautiful and unitive, and additionally the use of the TLM by traditional Catholics is entirely harmless. What Pope Benedict did with Sacrosanctum Concilium was excellent work in terms of fostering reconciliation, whereas Traditiones Custodes was an extremely divisive, polarizing act.

Actually what Sacrosanctum Concilium envisaged was I think something very close to the liturgy the ultra high church Anglo Catholics at the C of E parish known as St. Magnus the Martyr in the City of London celebrate, which is a hybrid of the Traditional Latin Mass and a vernacular liturgy, with a retention of the ornate and beautiful ceremony and devotion which characterizes the traditional liturgies, such as those of Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Catholicism (such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Chaldean Catholic Church, with the unfortunate exception of the Maronite liturgy, which underwent a “reform” similiar to what happened to the Roman and Ambrosian rites (although it appears the Ambrosian Rite was less adversely affected than the Roman, although many of the same problems were introduced, but at least in Milan there has been less in the way of liturgical abuse, and more Latin is retained, especially in the Duomo).

Also, regarding the Latin issue raised earlier, this is also something of a canard since (a) traditional Latin masses are normally provided with hand missals, so one can follow along the entire service, and (b) the scripture lessons are repeated in the vernacular and the homily is preached in the vernacular. The only place where one would not expect to find this is in some monasteries; actually I’ve never been to a monastery where a sermon was preached during the liturgy, although I am sure some of them do it.

 

[fhansen]

That obviously has not happened in the case of the Traditional Latin Mass and is rather frankly something of a canard. The real issue as I see it for traditional Catholics is that the Novus Ordo in its present form fails to adhere to the specifications of Vatican II given in Sacrosanctum Concilium; it is a highly defective liturgy which ruptured continuity with the rest of the church, and which should itself be replaced by something more beautiful and unitive, and additionally the use of the TLM by traditional Catholics is entirely harmless. What Pope Benedict did with Sacrosanctum Concilium was excellent work in terms of fostering reconciliation, whereas Traditiones Custodes was an extremely divisive, polarizing act.

Actually what Sacrosanctum Concilium envisaged was I think something very close to the liturgy the ultra high church Anglo Catholics at the C of E parish known as St. Magnus the Martyr in the City of London celebrate, which is a hybrid of the Traditional Latin Mass and a vernacular liturgy, with a retention of the ornate and beautiful ceremony and devotion which characterizes the traditional liturgies, such as those of Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Catholicism (such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Chaldean Catholic Church, with the unfortunate exception of the Maronite liturgy, which underwent a “reform” similiar to what happened to the Roman and Ambrosian rites (although it appears the Ambrosian Rite was less adversely affected than the Roman, although many of the same problems were introduced, but at least in Milan there has been less in the way of liturgical abuse, and more Latin is retained, especially in the Duomo).

Also, regarding the Latin issue raised earlier, this is also something of a canard since (a) traditional Latin masses are normally provided with hand missals, so one can follow along the entire service, and (b) the scripture lessons are repeated in the vernacular and the homily is preached in the vernacular. The only place where one would not expect to find this is in some monasteries; actually I’ve never been to a monastery where a sermon was preached during the liturgy, although I am sure some of them do it.

I agree that the NO liturgy has yet to follow the intention of the council-in large part, anyway-and that will sort itself out. But the answer isn't necessarily the Tridentine Mass and I also believe that there's been a sort of false piety and nostalgia worship that has evolved around the Latin Mass for many, in my experience at least.

 

[The Liturgist]

I agree that the NO liturgy has yet to follow the intention of the council-in large part, anyway-and that will sort itself out. But the answer isn't necessarily the Tridentine Mass and I also believe that there's been a sort of false piety and nostalgia worship that has evolved around the Latin Mass for many, in my experience at least.

Well I have to disagree with you on that; in my opinion, having visited traditional Latin masses, the piety is sincere and not motivated by nostalgia but rather by an appreciation for the liturgical beauty, which has also stimulated interest in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches.

On the whole, as Archpriest Andrew S. Damick of the Antiochian Orthodox Church stated in a recent podcast, there has been an influx of converts into all of the more traditional churches of late, and movements into more traditional churches within denominations.

The laid back style of worship that became prevalent in the late 20th century is now becoming increasingly unpopular, as people return to a desire for a more reverent style of worship focused on liturgical beauty.

And frankly, while the Tridentine Mass does have some problems I would argue, it is vastly superior to the Novus Ordo. It has a more focused one year lectionary, more consistency with the Byzantine Rite in its pre-1955 form, in the Paschal Triduum, which closely follows what we do for Easter, and it has the elegant style and construction of prayers that characterizes the traditional liturgies, albeit it is also known for being concise and to the point, as opposed to the more flowery and poetic language one finds in the Mozarabic and West Syriac rites, for example. I happen to love both styles by the way.

A major reason why I am supportive of the TLM is a desire to preserve the beautiful liturgical heritage, which is extremely solemn, and generally edifying. Most of the problems with the Vetus Ordo involve not the Mass, but rather the Divine Office, and the Novus Ordo’s attempt to fix that with the Liturgy of the Hours sadly has not worked. The Divine Office remains largely a private devotion for priests, and the only public services one finds at most Catholic churches are either the Mass, or devotional services like Holy Hour and other forms of Eucharistic devotion, and the Rosary or Novena, but it is a real shame that so few parishes celebrate Vespers or the Office of Readings, as Matins is called in the Novus Ordo Liturgy of the Hours, and almost none celebrate any other offices. Meanwhile Anglicans and Orthodox continue to get good attendance at services like Vigils, Evensong and Compline. That’s really the big elephant in the room, and changing that would be a huge improvement whether it involved the Novus Ordo or the Vetus Ordo, although I don’t really like the Divine Office from either rite that much; rather I think the Dominican Rite liturgy and the traditional Benedictine Divine Office (which is normally celebrated along with the Tridentine mass) are much better. Also, there are the beautiful Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the Office for the Dead, which are beautiful prayers, and it is a real tragedy these are not more readily available, as they are much simpler to do than the regular Divine Office or the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[fhansen]

Well I have to disagree with you on that; in my opinion, having visited traditional Latin masses, the piety is sincere and not motivated by nostalgia but rather by an appreciation for the liturgical beauty, which has also stimulated interest in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches.

On the whole, as Archpriest Andrew S. Damick of the Antiochian Orthodox Church stated in a recent podcast, there has been an influx of converts into all of the more traditional churches of late, and movements into more traditional churches within denominations.

The laid back style of worship that became prevalent in the late 20th century is now becoming increasingly unpopular, as people return to a desire for a more reverent style of worship focused on liturgical beauty.

And frankly, while the Tridentine Mass does have some problems I would argue, it is vastly superior to the Novus Ordo. It has a more focused one year lectionary, more consistency with the Byzantine Rite in its pre-1955 form, in the Paschal Triduum, which closely follows what we do for Easter, and it has the elegant style and construction of prayers that characterizes the traditional liturgies, albeit it is also known for being concise and to the point, as opposed to the more flowery and poetic language one finds in the Mozarabic and West Syriac rites, for example. I happen to love both styles by the way.

A major reason why I am supportive of the TLM is a desire to preserve the beautiful liturgical heritage, which is extremely solemn, and generally edifying. Most of the problems with the Vetus Ordo involve not the Mass, but rather the Divine Office, and the Novus Ordo’s attempt to fix that with the Liturgy of the Hours sadly has not worked. The Divine Office remains largely a private devotion for priests, and the only public services one finds at most Catholic churches are either the Mass, or devotional services like Holy Hour and other forms of Eucharistic devotion, and the Rosary or Novena, but it is a real shame that so few parishes celebrate Vespers or the Office of Readings, as Matins is called in the Novus Ordo Liturgy of the Hours, and almost none celebrate any other offices. Meanwhile Anglicans and Orthodox continue to get good attendance at services like Vigils, Evensong and Compline. That’s really the big elephant in the room, and changing that would be a huge improvement whether it involved the Novus Ordo or the Vetus Ordo, although I don’t really like the Divine Office from either rite that much; rather I think the Dominican Rite liturgy and the traditional Benedictine Divine Office (which is normally celebrated along with the Tridentine mass) are much better. Also, there are the beautiful Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the Office for the Dead, which are beautiful prayers, and it is a real tragedy these are not more readily available, as they are much simpler to do than the regular Divine Office or the Liturgy of the Hours.

One, thing, IMO, is that the majority of people will want the bulk of the Mass language to be in the vernacular. And that one point is actually more traditional-and rational- as I see it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

One, thing, IMO, is that the majority of people will want the bulk of the Mass language to be in the vernacular. And that one point is actually more traditional-and rational- as I see it.

Could we just have the TLM carefully and accurately translated into English then?