God-ordained Genocide

[Hammster]

Let me see if I can simplify this. A sticking point in Reformed Theology is the doctrine of election. And a very common argument used against it is normally a comment along the lines that God loves everyone and wants everyone to repent, assuming that’s what 2 Peter 3:9 is stating.

So the question is, how can this be reconciled with the many examples in scripture where God commanded the destruction of a people, actually destroyed a people Himself directly, or deliberately neglected bringing the gospel to a people?

 

[Hammster]

I have terrible news.... If you Challenge the Dominion that God gave Adam and Eve over Every Living Thing that moves on the earth, you are challenging the VERY phrasing in Colossians 1, that denotes the VERY SUPREMECY of Christ. Are you doubling down on that statement? You would also be Abrogating the Supremacy of Christ denoted in Daniel 7:14. Are you tripling down on that?

Also, I worked pretty hard to format that post for you to show you the Hebrew rendering... it's kind of hurtful that you just insulted it, but, all is well.

Here you go.

Let me see if I can simplify this. A sticking point in Reformed Theology is the doctrine of election. And a very common argument used against it is normally a comment along the lines that God loves everyone and wants everyone to repent, assuming that’s what 2 Peter 3:9 is stating.

So the question is, how can this be reconciled with the many examples in scripture where God commanded the destruction of a people, actually destroyed a people Himself directly, or deliberately neglected bringing the gospel to a people?

 

[Grip Docility]

Here you go.

Here you go.

Please post on topic.

How does the "Synergist" reconcile their position that God died for all people and God Loves all people with atrocities within the old testament that are charged to God?

There are scriptural matters that the Synergist recognizes.

Spoiler

1) In Eden, God grants Adam and Eve (Dominion of all that moves on the earth)... Dominion denotes Sovereignty, per the very definition of Dominion. This means, by the Bible that God is "Sovereign", but He Created His Creations with (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency)

2) Satan, per Ezekiel 28, was created Perfect, but has Iniquity rise up within himself. This is also proof that God grants (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency) to His creations.

3) In Revelation 12:5-7 we clearly see that Jesus ascends, before Satan is cast down from Heaven.

4) In the book of Job, we see in Job 1 that Satan has a place of agency in the presence of God and Accuses Job to the face of God, through false accusation, which we then find out in Job 2, that Satan's false accusations are rebuffed by God... yet God, is acknowledging Satan's Agency, per Satan's position, which clearly has him capable of ACCUSING a person before God, for the Right to Destroy that person. Job doesn't know that Satan has done the dirt, but still recons God as without evil, in the matter.. and scripture recognizes this very specifically. We, the reader know that Job is being persecuted by Satan. Job the participant, does not know this.

5) In the fall account of Adam and Eve... the entire matter is written long after it happened and is accounted from God to Moses. God reveals that Satan is a crafty, deceitful Snake of an Angel through the narrative, yet Adam and Eve are like children, naïve and used to the Honesty of God.

6) Colossians 1 shows the Supremacy of Christ. Per the very words of Colossians 1, Jesus reconciles ALL Things to Himself, by His Blood. If the verbiage of Colossians 1 is tampered with, the Supremacy of Christ becomes Tampered with.

7) God instructs Humanity to LOVE THEIR ENEMIES... which means that God LOVES, Even His Enemies, or else He would be a Hypocrite.

8) The passage that you assigned the word "Ad Nauseum" to remains relevant

9) There is no passage of scripture that says God is Hate... While there is passage of scripture that says that "if we hate, we are not of God, because God is Love.

All this reconciled, we see that Satan usurped the Sovereignty that God had Granted to Adam and Eve over themselves and all the Earth . From there on out, we see Satan's agency attempting to Mar the Character of God, just like the corrupted Jews (There were MANY GOOD ONES that followed Jesus) that did it to the VERY FACE of Y-WH when He walked this earth (John 14:8-9 and Matthew 23)

Now, because we have evidence in scripture that charges Satan's evil to God, in comparison of two passages (The Census)... We can then know without a doubt, that the Violence of God, was actually the Evil of Satan. If this were not so, God would not have stated to go and learn what this means, that He desired MERCY, instead of Sacrifice.

God doesn't contradict Himself. God IS the TRUE Law... and is the only Being in ALL of Creation that is Good by it.

To then say.... systematically built towards through reference to actual scripture... The Destroyer (AKA Satan) brought Violence into the world as a usurped Positional Middle Man, up until his Agency was Lost (At Golgotha). If this were a lie, we wouldn't have scripture that specifically states that Satan is the lowercase god of this world, nor could Satan have offered all the Kingdoms of the Earth to Jesus, if he didn't have genuine sovereignty over them. To be a god, denotes a form of Dominion (Sovereignty).

This now brings it back to the Matter of The answer to your interesting OP. If Genocide was done, it was Satan bringing violence, as Jesus called Satan a MURDERER, through the Pharisees, under the very authority of being the lowercase g-od of creation. A person is either Job, and believes that God is Blameless, or they are Job's Wife and ascribe Evil to God.

 

[Hammster]

Here you go.


How does the "Synergist" reconcile their position that God died for all people and God Loves all people with atrocities within the old testament that are charged to God?

There are scriptural matters that the Synergist recognizes.

Spoiler

1) In Eden, God grants Adam and Eve (Dominion of all that moves on the earth)... Dominion denotes Sovereignty, per the very definition of Dominion. This means, by the Bible that God is "Sovereign", but He Created His Creations with (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency)

2) Satan, per Ezekiel 28, was created Perfect, but has Iniquity rise up within himself. This is also proof that God grants (Free Individual Moral Autonomous Agency) to His creations.

3) In Revelation 12:5-7 we clearly see that Jesus ascends, before Satan is cast down from Heaven.

4) In the book of Job, we see in Job 1 that Satan has a place of agency in the presence of God and Accuses Job to the face of God, through false accusation, which we then find out in Job 2, that Satan's false accusations are rebuffed by God... yet God, is acknowledging Satan's Agency, per Satan's position, which clearly has him capable of ACCUSING a person before God, for the Right to Destroy that person. Job doesn't know that Satan has done the dirt, but still recons God as without evil, in the matter.. and scripture recognizes this very specifically. We, the reader know that Job is being persecuted by Satan. Job the participant, does not know this.

5) In the fall account of Adam and Eve... the entire matter is written long after it happened and is accounted from God to Moses. God reveals that Satan is a crafty, deceitful Snake of an Angel through the narrative, yet Adam and Eve are like children, naïve and used to the Honesty of God.

6) Colossians 1 shows the Supremacy of Christ. Per the very words of Colossians 1, Jesus reconciles ALL Things to Himself, by His Blood. If the verbiage of Colossians 1 is tampered with, the Supremacy of Christ becomes Tampered with.

7) God instructs Humanity to LOVE THEIR ENEMIES... which means that God LOVES, Even His Enemies, or else He would be a Hypocrite.

8) The passage that you assigned the word "Ad Nauseum" to remains relevant

9) There is no passage of scripture that says God is Hate... While there is passage of scripture that says that "if we hate, we are not of God, because God is Love.

All this reconciled, we see that Satan usurped the Sovereignty that God had Granted to Adam and Eve over themselves and all the Earth . From there on out, we see Satan's agency attempting to Mar the Character of God, just like the corrupted Jews (There were MANY GOOD ONES that followed Jesus) that did it to the VERY FACE of Y-WH when He walked this earth (John 14:8-9 and Matthew 23)

Now, because we have evidence in scripture that charges Satan's evil to God, in comparison of two passages (The Census)... We can then know without a doubt, that the Violence of God, was actually the Evil of Satan. If this were not so, God would not have stated to go and learn what this means, that He desired MERCY, instead of Sacrifice.

God doesn't contradict Himself. God IS the TRUE Law... and is the only Being in ALL of Creation that is Good by it.

To then say.... systematically built towards through reference to actual scripture... The Destroyer (AKA Satan) brought Violence into the world as a usurped Positional Middle Man, up until his Agency was Lost (At Golgotha). If this were a lie, we wouldn't have scripture that specifically states that Satan is the lowercase god of this world, nor could Satan have offered all the Kingdoms of the Earth to Jesus, if he didn't have genuine sovereignty over them. To be a god, denotes a form of Dominion (Sovereignty).

This now brings it back to the Matter of The answer to your interesting OP. If Genocide was done, it was Satan bringing violence, as Jesus called Satan a MURDERER, through the Pharisees, under the very authority of being the lowercase g-od of creation. A person is either Job, and believes that God is Blameless, or they are Job's Wife and ascribe Evil to God.

Only in the cities of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.
— Deuteronomy 20:16

And it happened that as he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
— Numbers 16:31-32

 

[Grip Docility]

Only in the cities of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.
— Deuteronomy 20:16

And it happened that as he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
— Numbers 16:31-32

Korah is a TYPE for those that are cast into the Lake, at the end of Time. Moses was a Type for Christ. Moses literally told God that if He didn't forgive the Israelites, God could go ahead and take his name off the BOOK of Life! How do you miss this?!?

 

[Hammster]

Jesus was protecting his BLOODLINE of Abraham from Satan, the origin of the Destruction! Do you not acknowledge that Satan is Real? God was battling Satan's corruption and because the Destroyer had set up Kings to destroy His Blood Line, God had to fight the usurped Sovereignty of Satan, by turning Satan against Himself.

Who did Satan use to capture the Israelites? Pharaohs. Who did God use to strike Satan's tools of destruction? (Exodus 12:23) He will not permit his death angel to enter your house and strike you down. Who was God's Death Angel? (Heb 2:14).

Brother... Please... Quit.... Charging.... Satan's work to God! There's a reason that God demonstrates His TRUE Sovereignty through HUMILITY! The God of the Old Testament isn't a Split personality of God! Scripture reveals what happened, but if we read God to be Proud, Self Serving, Unloving, Violent and Cruel.... Then we have now assisted SATAN! God revealed, Through the goat Azazel, who had been causing Mayhem on earth. It Wasn't GOD! Azazel is literally a name for SATAN.

Not Satan:

Only in the cities of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.
— Deuteronomy 20:16

And it happened that as he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
— Numbers 16:31-32

 

[Hammster]

Korah is a TYPE for those that are cast into the Lake, at the end of Time. Moses was a Type for Christ. Moses literally told God that if He didn't forgive the Israelites, God could go ahead and take his name off the BOOK of Life! How do you miss this?!?

Who opened the ground?

 

[Grip Docility]

Who opened the ground?

God, the Same LORD GOD, Jesus that will open it at the end. Evil will be Destroyed by God, as it has revealed it's perpetual desire to abuse Free Sovereign Agency, by being UNLOVING! The text of the Sheep and Goats sums it up.

 

[Hammster]

You have Job, displaying the idea of things on earth. He though God had held charge over him and performed the things that occurred, then, in Heaven, we see that Satan is Lying to God, asking to do horrible things. God acknowledges Satan's lies as lies in Job 2, yet Satan persists in doing wicked things.

You have the verse about the Census. Scripture is perfect. Yet when God and Satan are attributed to the exact event... despite the reassembly of the event is where Satan is listed, you demand to place this on GOD. Do you know why? Because your doctrines don't allow you to acknowledge that God grants genuine Self Sovereignty to His creations... but you are so busy proofing Dort... that you scour scripture to justify the final image that Determinism demands of God.

Why did God "Command" a man to be stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath,, per the Decalogue.. yet the same God, when physically here, saved a woman condemned by the Decalogue? We are violent. Satan is violent. God warned Cain that SIN was crouching at his door... Satan's work of death, Sin, empowered by the Standard of the Perfection of God, compared to the Imperfection of all creation, when compared to God.

Do you not look to reconcile these matters through the Character of God that Jesus, John and Paul, reveal? God is Love. Jesus is Love. 1 Corinthians 13. Do you not hold God accountable to His own teachings? He specified that He does not DO as the Pharisees do... and Teach so way, then Do another. Do you not SPIRITUALLY hear Scripture when you read?!?

Still Not Satan:

Only in the cities of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.
— Deuteronomy 20:16

And it happened that as he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
— Numbers 16:31-32

 

[Hammster]

God, the Same LORD GOD, Jesus that will open it at the end. Evil will be Destroyed by God, as it has revealed its perpetual desire to abuse Free Sovereign Agency, by being UNLOVING! The text of the Sheep and Goats sums it up.

So God does kill people. You made it sound like it was only Satan.

 

[Grip Docility]

Who opened the ground?

Hammster... Also, I know that you prefer perfect format and such forth. I have a psychological disconnect between my motor skills and my actual mind. My brain works cognitively faster than my physical being can respond. I have one IQ based on my intellect and a separate IQ based on the psychological disconnect. This is why much of what I type is rough and full of weird grammatical errors. I do my best to go back and fix it all. I've learned to simply get it all out, then go back and fix it. I do apologize, however.

 

[Grip Docility]

Still Not Satan:

Only in the cities of these peoples that Yahweh your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.
— Deuteronomy 20:16

And it happened that as he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
— Numbers 16:31-32

I specified God's Motives, as revealed by scripture itself. They are directly tied to God responding to Satan's work.

Please... answer this single question. Is GOD responsible for the Wickedness of Satan?

 

[Aviel]

So God does kill people. You made it sound like it was only Satan.

Yes, God does Kill people.

He's giving them their justified recompense. He is executing "reap what you have sown".

An example would be Ananias and Sapphira

Or Peter Jennings

Or Christopher Hitchens

God's judgement is always against sin or against mocking.. as "God is not mocked".

And one of the situations that gets people killed is to "take God's name in vain".

What is that?
Its to pretend to be a Christian and then slander God, willfully, maliciously, and happily.

Another way to die, by the Hand of God, is this..

"Defraud a Brother".. and Jesus Himself will avenge this deed. 1 Thessalonians 4:6

Its a "fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" and that is not a Myth.

 

[Hammster]

I specified God's Motives, as revealed by scripture itself. They are directly tied to God responding to Satan's work.

Please... answer this single question. Is GOD responsible for the Wickedness of Satan?

I’ll play along.

No.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, God does Kill people.

He's giving them their justified recompense. He is executing "reap what you have sown".

Okay. What did the people do wrong here?

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land, for Yahweh your God stiffened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to give him over into your hand, as he is today. And Yahweh said to me, ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to possess, so that you may fully possess his land.’ “Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. But Yahweh our God gave him over to us, and we struck him down with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction the men, women, and little ones of every city. We left no survivor remaining.
— Deuteronomy 2:30-34

 

[Grip Docility]

I’ll play along.

No.

No Gotcha dialogue to follow. I appreciate your answer. You let your yes be yes and your no be no. We can find peace, together on this matter and we can say that we have reached theological reconciliation, at this one single point. Perspective is just that.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, my thought provoking Brother in Jesus

 

[Hammster]

No Gotcha dialogue to follow. I appreciate your answer. You let your yes be yes and your no be no. We can find peace, together on this matter and we can say that we have reached theological reconciliation, at this one single point. Perspective is just that.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, my thought provoking Brother in Jesus

What was the point of the question as it relates to the OP?

 

[Grip Docility]

Okay. What did the people do wrong here?

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land, for Yahweh your God stiffened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to give him over into your hand, as he is today. And Yahweh said to me, ‘See, I have begun to give Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to possess, so that you may fully possess his land.’ “Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. But Yahweh our God gave him over to us, and we struck him down with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction the men, women, and little ones of every city. We left no survivor remaining.
— Deuteronomy 2:30-34

Heshbon... was known historically and Archeologically as an Amorite land. They worshipped Amurru, which they believed to be the main "elohim" of their many god's, that descended from their uppercase God. Amurru was their god of weather and demanded "Human Saccrifice", which really tends to "Episcopalian" God off.

In biblical terms, they worshiped a sub deity of Ba' al. Which thus means, they worshiped one of Beelzebub's sub elohim, and accordingly, Satan, vicariously through one of the angels that surrendered to his command.​

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Ba‘al, in order to burn up their children in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba‘al — something I never ordered or said; it never even entered my mind.​

 

[Aviel]

What are you taking about?

Well,

lets see.

You posted a Thread that accuses God of genocide, as if because you posted it, it must be true

You're Thread's accusation against God.... is nothing more then your opinion @Hammster .

And nothing less.

And YOUR BIBLE says that you will be JUDGED by your WORDS, and you have posted some indeed.

And ive explained to you, at least using 4 different concepts, why... .when God does something, Its always RIGHT, Moral, and True.

So, continuing the conversational pursuit of "does God kill people", that you are here to talk about... i showed you a few who are currently breathing that deserve it, based on the harm they have caused people, for years, decades.
I posted for you 2 others who got what they deserved, based on their "God mocking".

And yet, God's mercy, allows for free will, and they have used their's to destroy, and sometimes, we see someone taken out, and at other times, they are allowed to continue.
And only God is qualified to know why that happens..

We are not qualified to sit in Judgement against God Almighty's ways and methods, as i told you.

 

[Hammster]

Heshbon... was known historically and Archeologically as an Ammonite land. They worshipped Amurru, which they believed to be the main "elohim" of their many god's, that descended from their uppercase God. Amurru was their god of weather and demanded "Human Saccrifice", which really tends to "Episcopalian" God off.

In biblical terms, they worshiped a sub deity of Ba' al. Which thus means, they worshiped one of Beelzebub's sub elohim, and accordingly, Satan, vicariously through one of the angels that surrendered to his command.​

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built the high places of Ba‘al, in order to burn up their children in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba‘al — something I never ordered or said; it never even entered my mind.​

That’s not mentioned in the text. From the text, what did the people do wrong?