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Struggles by Non-Christians
Not struggling, but curious to hear a theist point of view.
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<blockquote data-quote="DwarfJuggler" data-source="post: 55499028" data-attributes="member: 267455"><p>"why would god not protect the writing"</p><p></p><p>Well to do so would violate free will. He'd be telling people to make sure it's right, and would probably threaten hell onto them if they don't. This violates free will. </p><p></p><p>Did god himself write the book no.</p><p>Does Satan have this same limitation of not manipulating free will or prodding people to do things his way? no.</p><p>So Satan would naturally have a more influential pull on changing the bible than that of God as God said he would not go against free will and God is unchanging.</p><p></p><p>"first thing dawned interesting thing."</p><p></p><p>Yeah it was the first thing because I realistically viewed it as an ancient form of the telephone game. People are flawed and as so stories are changed. And if there's apparently this evil force manipulating people as well all the more reason to be suspicious of credibility.</p><p></p><p>"You give Satan too much credit and God not enough. God made Satan; they are not equals fighting over the spoils of the Earth. Satan hasn't the power to disrupt God's plans any more than an ant has the power to disrupt the passing of the sun across the sky."</p><p></p><p>Then why is there this whole "left behind" fiasco where god essentially pulls out and takes his believers with him letting havoc run rampant on earth? If god was powerful enough why would he even keep Satan around to try and manipulate us? He seems just as capable as killing and allowing torture to happen in his name so why not have this hell with out a Satan and just send the souls down? </p><p></p><p>"But there is nothing truly critical in what you've written so far. You've simply shared a bunch of "what ifs" without any basis in fact for support. Critical thinking carefully analyzes and weighs all available evidence before coming to a conclusion. You, though, have simply resorted to imagination and pre-existing prejudice for your "critical" thoughts. </p><p></p><p>The Bible is too unique, to potent a book to be "just another book." Completely apart from its spiritual content, if you actually knew anything about its construction, its historical value, and its literary depth, you would recognize its singular quality even as many secular scholars do. This doesn't necessarily prove the Bible is the Word of God, but it does give very serious weight to the claim."</p><p></p><p>I never claimed anything I said actually happened, more that it could have and therefore the credibility of the bible is false. As you're equally doing what ifs in contrast. What if Satan manipulated it, what if god prevented it, what if Satan added that line about not being able to manipulate it, etc etc. There's no evidence either way that suggests anything in the book is real. I was simply referring critical thinking to the idea that it's completely dependent on blind faith that it wasn't changed either by corrupt man or supernatural evil entities.</p><p></p><p>"Punish the bad"? The bad what?"</p><p></p><p>thought it evident enough... See heaven = good hell = bad/evil furthermore I mentioned an evil entity trying to stray us off our path. Should have been an easy conclusion that i was referring to bad/sinner souls</p><p></p><p>And of course I wouldn't be able to take into account the mindset of an omnipotent being. But being as blinded and lacking the infinite knowledge of god and be able to propose a more efficient manner, and it would be, to punish people would make it seem ridiculous that an all powerful all knowing being established it in the first place. </p><p></p><p>Or is it more efficient to have someone trying to lure your followers away and make them sin with demons and all that mumbo jumbo. And to allow him to punish them. (which realistically why would he punish them? He'd take that away from God for himself. If there really is this apparent war between light and dark why would he torture his army it'd make more sense for him to point out the fallacy of the whole system and recruit them to fight the light.)</p><p></p><p>As for the whole intervention/divine experience situation. The human mind is greatly capable of misinterpreting what we see. Just look at the whole moth man eye witness testimonies or alien abduction testimonies. I'm sure you disbelieve them but why? If you believe your divine intervention, or vision is any more credible than their story, it's only because you have a group of people wanting to believe you as it would be "proof" in their mind that god really does exist. </p><p></p><p>We twist reality to fit our own delusions. Like for instance I could be dead right now if we were not 10 seconds behind a tree branch falling in front of us while driving. Do I account it as intervention of God striking that branch down earlier than he could have? Of course not. Do I say thank you god for making me wake up 10 seconds later that day? Of course not. Things happen, when you apply a who then you stop using the critical thinking all together. You instantly assert God onto your life not ending then. Meanwhile when people die you often claim "it was his time." As if to lessen the burden of losing them or trying to console them by saying some superficial entity had a plan for him in heaven. </p><p></p><p>But.... Seeing as it's pretty much entirely improbable anyone will rationally look at their belief system and question it I'll just ask one last question.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Should church and state be separate?</p><p></p><p>If you answer no I may have another comment <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> It's an annoyance we atheist have when no matter how much we try to get people to think rationally and objectively and show them that believing a god and afterlife is just to alleviate the fears of dieing they still revert back to that damn five letter word of "Faith."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DwarfJuggler, post: 55499028, member: 267455"] "why would god not protect the writing" Well to do so would violate free will. He'd be telling people to make sure it's right, and would probably threaten hell onto them if they don't. This violates free will. Did god himself write the book no. Does Satan have this same limitation of not manipulating free will or prodding people to do things his way? no. So Satan would naturally have a more influential pull on changing the bible than that of God as God said he would not go against free will and God is unchanging. "first thing dawned interesting thing." Yeah it was the first thing because I realistically viewed it as an ancient form of the telephone game. People are flawed and as so stories are changed. And if there's apparently this evil force manipulating people as well all the more reason to be suspicious of credibility. "You give Satan too much credit and God not enough. God made Satan; they are not equals fighting over the spoils of the Earth. Satan hasn't the power to disrupt God's plans any more than an ant has the power to disrupt the passing of the sun across the sky." Then why is there this whole "left behind" fiasco where god essentially pulls out and takes his believers with him letting havoc run rampant on earth? If god was powerful enough why would he even keep Satan around to try and manipulate us? He seems just as capable as killing and allowing torture to happen in his name so why not have this hell with out a Satan and just send the souls down? "But there is nothing truly critical in what you've written so far. You've simply shared a bunch of "what ifs" without any basis in fact for support. Critical thinking carefully analyzes and weighs all available evidence before coming to a conclusion. You, though, have simply resorted to imagination and pre-existing prejudice for your "critical" thoughts. The Bible is too unique, to potent a book to be "just another book." Completely apart from its spiritual content, if you actually knew anything about its construction, its historical value, and its literary depth, you would recognize its singular quality even as many secular scholars do. This doesn't necessarily prove the Bible is the Word of God, but it does give very serious weight to the claim." I never claimed anything I said actually happened, more that it could have and therefore the credibility of the bible is false. As you're equally doing what ifs in contrast. What if Satan manipulated it, what if god prevented it, what if Satan added that line about not being able to manipulate it, etc etc. There's no evidence either way that suggests anything in the book is real. I was simply referring critical thinking to the idea that it's completely dependent on blind faith that it wasn't changed either by corrupt man or supernatural evil entities. "Punish the bad"? The bad what?" thought it evident enough... See heaven = good hell = bad/evil furthermore I mentioned an evil entity trying to stray us off our path. Should have been an easy conclusion that i was referring to bad/sinner souls And of course I wouldn't be able to take into account the mindset of an omnipotent being. But being as blinded and lacking the infinite knowledge of god and be able to propose a more efficient manner, and it would be, to punish people would make it seem ridiculous that an all powerful all knowing being established it in the first place. Or is it more efficient to have someone trying to lure your followers away and make them sin with demons and all that mumbo jumbo. And to allow him to punish them. (which realistically why would he punish them? He'd take that away from God for himself. If there really is this apparent war between light and dark why would he torture his army it'd make more sense for him to point out the fallacy of the whole system and recruit them to fight the light.) As for the whole intervention/divine experience situation. The human mind is greatly capable of misinterpreting what we see. Just look at the whole moth man eye witness testimonies or alien abduction testimonies. I'm sure you disbelieve them but why? If you believe your divine intervention, or vision is any more credible than their story, it's only because you have a group of people wanting to believe you as it would be "proof" in their mind that god really does exist. We twist reality to fit our own delusions. Like for instance I could be dead right now if we were not 10 seconds behind a tree branch falling in front of us while driving. Do I account it as intervention of God striking that branch down earlier than he could have? Of course not. Do I say thank you god for making me wake up 10 seconds later that day? Of course not. Things happen, when you apply a who then you stop using the critical thinking all together. You instantly assert God onto your life not ending then. Meanwhile when people die you often claim "it was his time." As if to lessen the burden of losing them or trying to console them by saying some superficial entity had a plan for him in heaven. But.... Seeing as it's pretty much entirely improbable anyone will rationally look at their belief system and question it I'll just ask one last question. Should church and state be separate? If you answer no I may have another comment :) It's an annoyance we atheist have when no matter how much we try to get people to think rationally and objectively and show them that believing a god and afterlife is just to alleviate the fears of dieing they still revert back to that damn five letter word of "Faith." [/QUOTE]
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Not struggling, but curious to hear a theist point of view.
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