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New NDP Leader/Leader of the Opposition
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<blockquote data-quote="rambot" data-source="post: 61056506" data-attributes="member: 145797"><p>It would be nice if everyone WAS a volunteer. But, I don't know if you've noticed, humans are a terribly, selfish, self serving lot and many people have NO interest in volunteering their time to take care of people with VERY varied and intense needs. Food banks are ALWAYS looking for volunteers because there is ALWAYS work that needs to get done. And yet, people aren't coming out of the woodwork to get it done (what % of Canada's population are Christians? [rhetorical question...77% self report as Christian]...and yet "strangely" there is a shortage of volunteerism). </p><p>So the options are, some people get paid to manage and run it (and/or do other tasks). Unpleasant as it may seem, it is the rough reality of it.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>The problem is you are NOT <strong>sure</strong>....Remember...you wrote this:</p><p></p><p>Why can we not just <em>politically</em> disagree, and have you try to understand the party and it's supporters? Why does it have to be about faith?</p><p></p><p></p><p>These are the GREATEST challenges of social work and it is something you need to understand social workers STRIVE TO DO! Your accusations suggest otherwise, but you are judgemental on this matter and completely incorrect. </p><p>We did not want to bring kids into care; we did not WANT kids to suffer the neglect and pain their parents caused, but we HAD to because to us, there is a bit of a moral imparative to help children be safe. Getting people to change behaviours, especialyl behaviours that they have been surrounded by for decades of their existence, is tough. Heck, I'm currently working with a 14 year old who I already expect is "too far gone" to be able to survive on his own safely.</p><p></p><p></p><p>a) I've supported people in pursuing Welfare. In their experience, it was a far cry from "unconditional"; but I suppose it depends on what you consider to be a "condition".</p><p>b) Pity. IT's difficult to fathom the depths of pain people have lived through. Who am I to say that their pain is not worthy of some kind of help from myself to help them get back to a place where they CAN function in society.</p><p>c) Did I like/<strong>enjoy </strong> giving people "Free money". Let me be clear:</p><p>No. </p><p>I would MUCH rather they earn it. </p><p>At the same time, I REALLY don't like that a girl was sold into sexual slavery by her father at 13, beaten by a string of alcoholic and abusive boyfriends; all while being shackled by limitations inflicted on her by a crack harlot mother who drank why she was growing inside her.</p><p>So I guess the question I ask myself is: What do I HATE more?</p><p></p><p>If you HAVE lived on the streets, then certainly you are aware of the inherent dangers of being on the streets and the people that prey upon those that live there. THAT is why welfare offices have the security they do. Why would you expect welfare workers to put their lives in danger?</p><p></p><p>There is a different way! But in our modern culture it can never come to pass. Individualism (not collectivism) is what drives volunteer numbers down. It is the deification of the self and the importance of one's own needs that created the welfare system...NOT the opposite. It's a lack of recognition in people that healthy communities make healthy individuals and a lack of drive to help your neighbour that created the welfare system.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>Sorry. It's REALLY REALLY hard for me to accept this answer. EVery point you've made so far in this thread has been based on your experiences; on practical realities. You seem to have pulled this fear of "Being invaded" from out of nowhere; it's a hypothetical, bogeyman problem that is currently, nowhere near the realm of possibility. It feels more to me like an "answer of convinience" and not a principled one based on your experience.</p><p></p><p>There ARE children across Canada who go to bed hungry. Now. Today, tonight tomorrow. Their meth addled parents don't prioritize food for them (if they even see them for more than a few minutes). Why are you unwilling to let social groups and charities provide those lunches to them (Because, of course, those organizations receive LARGE amounts of money from governments to support their work)?</p><p></p><p> </p><p>Mental health plays a larger part in a person's life than you may appreciate. Life circumstances can also make it hard. Also, I can think of MORE than a few routes in our city where, if a haggard looking homeless man was wondering the neighbourhood, delivering flyers or not, the police would be contacted. </p><p></p><p>I'm sorry but I don't quite understand this story. And, because of a lack of clarity and details, it's kind of difficult for me o take it at face value.</p><p>But if I'm understanding this (and I'm not convinced I am) I think I can address it.</p><p></p><p>Don't know if you've come across this in your experience, but there are a few people on welfare who lie. There are, oh, I don't know 100% of addicts who lie. Welfare is frequently populated by addicts (though not necessarily their only barrier to success) who lie to maintain their standing. They lie to their social workers. Social workers have the unpleasant task of frequently believing they are being lied to without being able to acertain the truth. Now, because of some "ridiculous conservatives" who demand fiscal accountability in their departments and offices (something that tax payers also tend to demand), social workers sometimes have to take drastic steps when they have been lied to and they feel they have sufficient evidence to prove the lie.</p><p>Are they always right? Not by a long shot. So is the nature of addictions, mistrust and mistruth.</p><p></p><p>I am currently working with a girl whose father frequently presents as being completely off his head on coke when they speak on the phone (she is pretty convinced it may be happenning). He's connected to the church and the church is advocating on his behalf. What can be done? Evidentiary support suggests lies. </p><p>When I've been in situations that were at ALL similar, parents would not show up for drug tests or did anything they could to excuse themselves or lie out of it. Luckily, I've worked with some AMAZING partners of these people who didn't take any of their guff and went it alone to protect their kids.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="rambot, post: 61056506, member: 145797"] It would be nice if everyone WAS a volunteer. But, I don't know if you've noticed, humans are a terribly, selfish, self serving lot and many people have NO interest in volunteering their time to take care of people with VERY varied and intense needs. Food banks are ALWAYS looking for volunteers because there is ALWAYS work that needs to get done. And yet, people aren't coming out of the woodwork to get it done (what % of Canada's population are Christians? [rhetorical question...77% self report as Christian]...and yet "strangely" there is a shortage of volunteerism). So the options are, some people get paid to manage and run it (and/or do other tasks). Unpleasant as it may seem, it is the rough reality of it. The problem is you are NOT [B]sure[/B]....Remember...you wrote this: Why can we not just [I]politically[/I] disagree, and have you try to understand the party and it's supporters? Why does it have to be about faith? These are the GREATEST challenges of social work and it is something you need to understand social workers STRIVE TO DO! Your accusations suggest otherwise, but you are judgemental on this matter and completely incorrect. We did not want to bring kids into care; we did not WANT kids to suffer the neglect and pain their parents caused, but we HAD to because to us, there is a bit of a moral imparative to help children be safe. Getting people to change behaviours, especialyl behaviours that they have been surrounded by for decades of their existence, is tough. Heck, I'm currently working with a 14 year old who I already expect is "too far gone" to be able to survive on his own safely. a) I've supported people in pursuing Welfare. In their experience, it was a far cry from "unconditional"; but I suppose it depends on what you consider to be a "condition". b) Pity. IT's difficult to fathom the depths of pain people have lived through. Who am I to say that their pain is not worthy of some kind of help from myself to help them get back to a place where they CAN function in society. c) Did I like/[B]enjoy [/B] giving people "Free money". Let me be clear: No. I would MUCH rather they earn it. At the same time, I REALLY don't like that a girl was sold into sexual slavery by her father at 13, beaten by a string of alcoholic and abusive boyfriends; all while being shackled by limitations inflicted on her by a crack harlot mother who drank why she was growing inside her. So I guess the question I ask myself is: What do I HATE more? If you HAVE lived on the streets, then certainly you are aware of the inherent dangers of being on the streets and the people that prey upon those that live there. THAT is why welfare offices have the security they do. Why would you expect welfare workers to put their lives in danger? There is a different way! But in our modern culture it can never come to pass. Individualism (not collectivism) is what drives volunteer numbers down. It is the deification of the self and the importance of one's own needs that created the welfare system...NOT the opposite. It's a lack of recognition in people that healthy communities make healthy individuals and a lack of drive to help your neighbour that created the welfare system. Sorry. It's REALLY REALLY hard for me to accept this answer. EVery point you've made so far in this thread has been based on your experiences; on practical realities. You seem to have pulled this fear of "Being invaded" from out of nowhere; it's a hypothetical, bogeyman problem that is currently, nowhere near the realm of possibility. It feels more to me like an "answer of convinience" and not a principled one based on your experience. There ARE children across Canada who go to bed hungry. Now. Today, tonight tomorrow. Their meth addled parents don't prioritize food for them (if they even see them for more than a few minutes). Why are you unwilling to let social groups and charities provide those lunches to them (Because, of course, those organizations receive LARGE amounts of money from governments to support their work)? Mental health plays a larger part in a person's life than you may appreciate. Life circumstances can also make it hard. Also, I can think of MORE than a few routes in our city where, if a haggard looking homeless man was wondering the neighbourhood, delivering flyers or not, the police would be contacted. I'm sorry but I don't quite understand this story. And, because of a lack of clarity and details, it's kind of difficult for me o take it at face value. But if I'm understanding this (and I'm not convinced I am) I think I can address it. Don't know if you've come across this in your experience, but there are a few people on welfare who lie. There are, oh, I don't know 100% of addicts who lie. Welfare is frequently populated by addicts (though not necessarily their only barrier to success) who lie to maintain their standing. They lie to their social workers. Social workers have the unpleasant task of frequently believing they are being lied to without being able to acertain the truth. Now, because of some "ridiculous conservatives" who demand fiscal accountability in their departments and offices (something that tax payers also tend to demand), social workers sometimes have to take drastic steps when they have been lied to and they feel they have sufficient evidence to prove the lie. Are they always right? Not by a long shot. So is the nature of addictions, mistrust and mistruth. I am currently working with a girl whose father frequently presents as being completely off his head on coke when they speak on the phone (she is pretty convinced it may be happenning). He's connected to the church and the church is advocating on his behalf. What can be done? Evidentiary support suggests lies. When I've been in situations that were at ALL similar, parents would not show up for drug tests or did anything they could to excuse themselves or lie out of it. Luckily, I've worked with some AMAZING partners of these people who didn't take any of their guff and went it alone to protect their kids. [/QUOTE]
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