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Exploring Christianity
Did Jesus Exist?
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<blockquote data-quote="ElijahW" data-source="post: 56954891" data-attributes="member: 275668"><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> When you keep spamming a link to that is trying to sell a book that according to the author actually holds the evidence then its going to look like a sales pitch. I dont actually think thats what you are doing but instead are trying to hide behind a bunch of text online so you dont have to actually support your position. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Lets pretend Im not a liar and am familiar with this theory and have found it lacking and the author completely unaware of the argument going on back then within philosophy and Christianity. That being the imagined case; lets pretend that you actually have to support the position instead of pretending Dohertys website is some kind of evidence here.</span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">You say in one sentence the case has nothing to do with the evidence not being good enough and then go into why the historical accounts arent good enough to be used as evidence.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Youre not complaining about the lack of evidence you are begging the question that the evidence should be limited to Pauls letters and Hebrews because the Gospels come at a date too late. Im choosing to ignore this because I think its a waste of energy to try to get a skeptic to stop being skeptical and instead try to get you to produce what you think happened actually. The hope being that your ability in skepticism will help you see the alternatives are unsupported and hard to figure out a time line for.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I imagine you as the attorney but I think you are trying to act like the judge by not presenting your case of what you think happened actually. You cross examined the evidence and feel that the historical accounts are too late to be valid. We get that. Now lets look at your account and have a chance for the historical side to cross examine.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">You presented Doherty as an expert witness, who while isnt available for cross examination presently, has previously on cross examination shown to not be an expert or have support for his understanding of Paul. You can find someone who believes anything online but that doesnt make it evidence or them an expert witness in your defense of a non historical Jesus.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">You need to layout what you think happened for our imaginary jury. Right now all youve done is present a guy you found online who thinks that there should be more historical information in a few letters about Jesus if he was historical but written by people who didnt know him.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> I am looking and waiting for you to say what you think happened instead of promoting some online authors theory. Im tired of talking about Doherty, I would like to know what you think if thats ok?</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">We are on page 20 of you asking a question you know the answer to so lets not act like time is of the essence for you here. The most important thing here is for you to explain what you think really happened. Everyone here already knows the historical account we are given but we dont know the alternative historical account you think actually happened. </span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">I know it may seem like a waste of energy but if you want the truth to get out there then maybe take a few paragraphs to explain what you think actually happened. Imagine you had to make a movie of how Christianity really started and give a brief synapses.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">Many argue whatever suits their biases and agendas. But obviously it is meant to be historical. Is it accurate? Probably not. But to a degree that makes it impossible to get the important aspects? Like the continued persecution and imitation of Jesus sacrifice and how it influenced those around the act. I dont think so. It may not happen like depicted but the basic idea gets through. Same thing with the Gospels.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">No, there is two points going on here. This is about establishing what evidenced would look like of a historical figure back then. You chose Paul and Jesus ben Stada. You are trying to show what a normal output for a historical figure would be here; not if he thought Jesus was crucified in heaven. It would be related to why you expect more evidence and dismiss other.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">That someone existed yes but what do we know about him from unbiased/untampered with sources? We are trying to establish what historical mark would be left for someone back then similar to Jesus. That those writings are a mark of someone existing is a given but you need to support whatever life you think he lived, when, where, how he died... stuff like that. What historians do we go to hear about Paul converting gentiles to Christianity? It doesnt matter if you find them reliable, we are only trying to see if the evidence of this known historical figure is on par with Jesus Christ.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">That has to do with the body being considered flawed because of the fundamental nature of matter. This was standard thinking that comes from Platonic duality where the spiritual is eternal and the material is temporal. So if the Torah and prophecy are true then by their reasoning the body we existed in before the fall and would exist in the future would be changed from the presently flawed material way to a spiritual form.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">But you can see from the passages before and after that, the concern is pulling off the same thing that Jesus did, not anything about a sacrifice in heaven that saves them.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><p style="margin-left: 20px"> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> 15:12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> 20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> 50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:</span></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px">"Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory?</span></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> O death, where is your sting?"</span></span> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 10px"> His resurrection was the basis of the hope of their own resurrection. A story about a resurrection of something that happened just in heaven is of no concern to a person on earth looking for a way around death not only for themselves but the whole world. </span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ElijahW, post: 56954891, member: 275668"] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] When you keep spamming a link to that is trying to sell a book that according to the author actually holds the evidence then its going to look like a sales pitch. I dont actually think thats what you are doing but instead are trying to hide behind a bunch of text online so you dont have to actually support your position. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Lets pretend Im not a liar and am familiar with this theory and have found it lacking and the author completely unaware of the argument going on back then within philosophy and Christianity. That being the imagined case; lets pretend that you actually have to support the position instead of pretending Dohertys website is some kind of evidence here. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]You say in one sentence the case has nothing to do with the evidence not being good enough and then go into why the historical accounts arent good enough to be used as evidence. Youre not complaining about the lack of evidence you are begging the question that the evidence should be limited to Pauls letters and Hebrews because the Gospels come at a date too late. Im choosing to ignore this because I think its a waste of energy to try to get a skeptic to stop being skeptical and instead try to get you to produce what you think happened actually. The hope being that your ability in skepticism will help you see the alternatives are unsupported and hard to figure out a time line for. I imagine you as the attorney but I think you are trying to act like the judge by not presenting your case of what you think happened actually. You cross examined the evidence and feel that the historical accounts are too late to be valid. We get that. Now lets look at your account and have a chance for the historical side to cross examine.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]You presented Doherty as an expert witness, who while isnt available for cross examination presently, has previously on cross examination shown to not be an expert or have support for his understanding of Paul. You can find someone who believes anything online but that doesnt make it evidence or them an expert witness in your defense of a non historical Jesus.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]You need to layout what you think happened for our imaginary jury. Right now all youve done is present a guy you found online who thinks that there should be more historical information in a few letters about Jesus if he was historical but written by people who didnt know him. I am looking and waiting for you to say what you think happened instead of promoting some online authors theory. Im tired of talking about Doherty, I would like to know what you think if thats ok? [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]We are on page 20 of you asking a question you know the answer to so lets not act like time is of the essence for you here. The most important thing here is for you to explain what you think really happened. Everyone here already knows the historical account we are given but we dont know the alternative historical account you think actually happened. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]I know it may seem like a waste of energy but if you want the truth to get out there then maybe take a few paragraphs to explain what you think actually happened. Imagine you had to make a movie of how Christianity really started and give a brief synapses.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Many argue whatever suits their biases and agendas. But obviously it is meant to be historical. Is it accurate? Probably not. But to a degree that makes it impossible to get the important aspects? Like the continued persecution and imitation of Jesus sacrifice and how it influenced those around the act. I dont think so. It may not happen like depicted but the basic idea gets through. Same thing with the Gospels. No, there is two points going on here. This is about establishing what evidenced would look like of a historical figure back then. You chose Paul and Jesus ben Stada. You are trying to show what a normal output for a historical figure would be here; not if he thought Jesus was crucified in heaven. It would be related to why you expect more evidence and dismiss other. That someone existed yes but what do we know about him from unbiased/untampered with sources? We are trying to establish what historical mark would be left for someone back then similar to Jesus. That those writings are a mark of someone existing is a given but you need to support whatever life you think he lived, when, where, how he died... stuff like that. What historians do we go to hear about Paul converting gentiles to Christianity? It doesnt matter if you find them reliable, we are only trying to see if the evidence of this known historical figure is on par with Jesus Christ. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]That has to do with the body being considered flawed because of the fundamental nature of matter. This was standard thinking that comes from Platonic duality where the spiritual is eternal and the material is temporal. So if the Torah and prophecy are true then by their reasoning the body we existed in before the fall and would exist in the future would be changed from the presently flawed material way to a spiritual form.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]But you can see from the passages before and after that, the concern is pulling off the same thing that Jesus did, not anything about a sacrifice in heaven that saves them.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][INDENT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] 15:12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] 20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.[/SIZE][/FONT][/INDENT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][INDENT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] 50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"[/SIZE][/FONT] [/INDENT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] His resurrection was the basis of the hope of their own resurrection. A story about a resurrection of something that happened just in heaven is of no concern to a person on earth looking for a way around death not only for themselves but the whole world. [/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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