Is Using a Fleshlight a Sin? Can Christains Use Sex Toys?

[ghendricks63]

Just look at how things are punished. Sexual sins were given death in the old testament. Adultery = death. Masturbation != death. Having sex before marriage != death, but it does mean you are now married to the one you had sex, so a woman couldn't go around having pre-marital sex with multiple people, as after the first time, it would be adultery.

The moment you included masturbation as receiving the death penalty you invalidated your entire post. Masturbation was never mentioned even ONCE in the entire bible (especially not the verse that is so badly abused to indicate otherwise) and you claim it is not only forbidden but carries the death penalty?? You can't just make this stuff up you know.

Sex before marriage did not carry the death penalty either. Only in certain circumstances where it violated property rights. I for one am very glad women are no longer considered property in the Christian faith.

And there is nothing to indicate that sex was in fact marriage. Again...the cutlure of lineage being paramount and property rights of men over women is the only thing that even made it an issue.

 

[nikkey76]

I think the real question here is lust. Is lust ok?

Follow me on this one, see in order to touch or just have a wild fantasy one has to conjure up an image in their head. This image in their mind helps to create the mood and here comes the willingness and desire and lust. It may not be for some,one you know it could be a movie star or a cute guy or girl you see on tv or at work, what ever. The thing is you know what thoughts you think and so does God.

Jesus said in Matt 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Colossians 3:5 helps " Put to death , therefore what ever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed with is idolatry.

I know this was written long ago but I believe in the power of His words. I have prayed and asked God to help me control my own thoughts. Self control is difficult I have been divorced and celibent for 5 years I know. I've cried myself to sleep some night over this issue but I hold fast to God's word. At times like that all I have is God's word to cling to.

2 Corinthians 10:5 says " We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ."

Also ask yourself this your in church about to take communion and you have a personal moment in your mind about the cute person in the pew in front of you. How do you feel? Do you bring that though under control and stop it before it goes too far or do you let that thought linger? Is there shame in having thoughts like that in God's house, in his presence ( knowing full well he is always near and we cannot escape of hide from him) ?

 

[lawtonfogle]

The moment you included masturbation as receiving the death penalty you invalidated your entire post.

Once you showed you were unable to tell the difference between = and !=, you invalidated your entire post.

!= means 'does NOT equal'.

Masturbation was never mentioned even ONCE in the entire bible (especially not the verse that is so badly abused to indicate otherwise) and you claim it is not only forbidden but carries the death penalty?? You can't just make this stuff up you know.

Sex before marriage did not carry the death penalty either.

Once again, you failed to recognize the symbols I was using. Normally if I use = to mean equals, and I use some other symbol, be it !=, ~=, =/=, <>, ect., they all mean does not equal.

Only in certain circumstances where it violated property rights. I for one am very glad women are no longer considered property in the Christian faith.

Actually, they still are. Paul clearly points out that when you marry, the husband's body is no longer his own, but his wife's, and the wife's body is no longer her own, but her husband's.

And there is nothing to indicate that sex was in fact marriage.

If a man had sex with a virgin, they were married. Even if she was only 12 years old (you have to see the original text, as their word for '12 year old' is often translated young maiden or girl, but even sometimes woman.

Again...the cutlure of lineage being paramount and property rights of men over women is the only thing that even made it an issue.

You could take this 'it doesn't matter because of how they use to operate' all the way to the bank and say marriage doesn't matter anymore because we no longer have a culture of lineage.

 

[ghendricks63]

I think the real question here is lust. Is lust ok?

Follow me on this one, see in order to touch or just have a wild fantasy one has to conjure up an image in their head. This image in their mind helps to create the mood and here comes the willingness and desire and lust. It may not be for some,one you know it could be a movie star or a cute guy or girl you see on tv or at work, what ever. The thing is you know what thoughts you think and so does God.

Jesus said in Matt 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Colossians 3:5 helps " Put to death , therefore what ever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed with is idolatry.

I know this was written long ago but I believe in the power of His words. I have prayed and asked God to help me control my own thoughts. Self control is difficult I have been divorced and celibent for 5 years I know. I've cried myself to sleep some night over this issue but I hold fast to God's word. At times like that all I have is God's word to cling to.

2 Corinthians 10:5 says " We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ."

Also ask yourself this your in church about to take communion and you have a personal moment in your mind about the cute person in the pew in front of you. How do you feel? Do you bring that though under control and stop it before it goes too far or do you let that thought linger? Is there shame in having thoughts like that in God's house, in his presence ( knowing full well he is always near and we cannot escape of hide from him) ?

I feel 100% fine if I have those feelings about the cute girl in the pew in front of me.

GOD DESIGNED US THIS WAY!!!!!

To lust (same root word as the command against coveting) I have to desire to take that which I am not entitled to. The feelings and urges and even sexual desires are not sin people. God did not put them there to torture us. Why so many believe that the beautiful gift of sexuality is the complete domain of the devil is truly beyond me.

 

[ghendricks63]

Once you showed you were unable to tell the difference between = and !=, you invalidated your entire post.

!= means 'does NOT equal'.

Once again, you failed to recognize the symbols I was using. Normally if I use = to mean equals, and I use some other symbol, be it !=, ~=, =/=, <>, ect., they all mean does not equal.

Actually, they still are. Paul clearly points out that when you marry, the husband's body is no longer his own, but his wife's, and the wife's body is no longer her own, but her husband's.

If a man had sex with a virgin, they were married. Even if she was only 12 years old (you have to see the original text, as their word for '12 year old' is often translated young maiden or girl, but even sometimes woman.


You could take this 'it doesn't matter because of how they use to operate' all the way to the bank and say marriage doesn't matter anymore because we no longer have a culture of lineage.

You are correct...I failed to recognize that you meant not equal with the "!=" symbol. My apologies. What is wrong with using words?

As for your sex=marriage statement...you have a long way to go in proving your conclusion. You are not really suggesting that the present day marriage relationship of mutual loving submission is the same as the property rights over women in the old testament are you?

 

[nikkey76]

I feel 100% fine if I have those feelings about the cute girl in the pew in front of me.

GOD DESIGNED US THIS WAY!!!!!

To lust (same root word as the command against coveting) I have to desire to take that which I am not entitled to. The feelings and urges and even sexual desires are not sin people. God did not put them there to torture us. Why so many believe that the beautiful gift of sexuality is the complete domain of the devil is truly beyond me.

Lets put sex in it's proper perspective. It is a wonderful gift from God ( when used to express the deepest emotions of love of course) , any one whose had it can attest to that. Like all gifts given to us each has it's place and proper use. Sex,and desire,are not evil are good but can turn perverse , addictive and used as idols in our lives if were are not careful. That's why the Bible guards these emotions so carefully. Desire turns in to lust quickly and if were not careful we can tread too close to that slippery slope of sin.

 

[ghendricks63]

Lets put sex in it's proper perspective. It is a wonderful gift from God ( when used to express the deepest emotions of love of course) , any one whose had it can attest to that. Like all gifts given to us each has it's place and proper use. Sex,and desire,are not evil are good but can turn perverse , addictive and used as idols in our lives if were are not careful. That's why the Bible guards these emotions so carefully. Desire turns in to lust quickly and if were not careful we can tread too close to that slippery slope of sin.

That's kind of like saying that because embracing grace may lead to licentious living we should therefor shun grace alltogether.

All things can be perverted...but that logic does not justify the near hysteria many in the church continue to promote on this subject.

 

[If Not For Grace]

What makes adultery and fornication wrong, I think, is the harm it does to others. Adultery can destroy marriages and families. Fornication can lead to unwanted pregnancy and the spoiling of an intimate bond.

AMEN!

Sex Toys are Fun & there's nothing wrong w/sex being fun, in fact it is supposed to be!

 

[nikkey76]

That's kind of like saying that because embracing grace may lead to licentious living we should therefor shun grace alltogether.

All things can be perverted...but that logic does not justify the near hysteria many in the church continue to promote on this subject.

That first half of the above quote is a bit of a long shot don't you think. For new Christians this may be an issue but of you've been in Christ for a while I am sure we know not to take advantage of the grace awarded to us.

I do however agree the extreme degree to which some churches take the censorship of sexuality is over the top. I tend to think that is because the local elders and leaders in those churches have an unwarranted and unhealthy fear of sex and everything relating to it.

On a side note:
For the record when I was married I saw nothing at all wrong with spicing up the marriage bed with games and toys. I saw it as a healthy expression of our love.

 

[ghendricks63]

That first half of the above quote is a bit of a long shot don't you think. For new Christians this may be an issue but of you've been in Christ for a while I am sure we know not to take advantage of the grace awarded to us.

I do however agree the extreme degree to which some churches take the censorship of sexuality is over the top. I tend to think that is because the local elders and leaders in those churches have an unwarranted and unhealthy fear of sex and everything relating to it.

On a side note:
For the record when I was married I saw nothing at all wrong with spicing up the marriage bed with games and toys. I saw it as a healthy expression of our love.

I am glad we have some common ground here.

As for the first comment...to me it really is the heart of the issue. I take a much broader position relating to what many would call sin where I do not feel scripturally it is supported. For them it is sin since they believe it to be so and as such they are compelled to avoid it. But for the more mature believer, Paul's words of "to the pure all things are pure" take on a wonderfully joyous meaning. I embrace the statement of why should my freedoms be judged by another's conscious and simply seek to avoid causing them to stumble when in conflict. In other words...I allow them to embrace as much of the law as their weak conscience requires of them.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Lawtonfogle,

Just look at how things are punished. Sexual sins were given death in the old testament. Adultery = death. Masturbation != death. Having sex before marriage != death, but it does mean you are now married to the one you had sex, so a woman couldn't go around having pre-marital sex with multiple people, as after the first time, it would be adultery.

essentially yes.

Now, Jesus does call lust adultery, but He also removed the death penalty for such.

Neither. Firstly Jesus NT teaching includes passages such as Matthew 19 and 1 Cor 7. In Matthew 19, &#8220;I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality (inappropriate contentos), and marries another woman commits adultery.&#8221;
and 1 Cor 7 &#8220;..because of so much sexual immorality (inappropriate contentos) each man should have his own wife&#8230;&#8221;
So &#8216;inappropriate contenteia&#8217; is sexual intercourse outside marriage.
As was said, it isn&#8217;t difficult. Its only difficult and sets the mind to all kinds of strange thinking when the text isn&#8217;t believed.

 

[Jim Bob]

AMEN!

Sex Toys are Fun & there's nothing wrong w/sex being fun, in fact it is supposed to be!

But does this only apply to married people? If a christian is single and also not going to marry then would he have to "burn with lust" as Paul put it or would it be allowed for him to also have some "fun"? I mean it's not like you can say okay I'm gonna marry because therefor you also need another person and I also don't want to marry because that wouldn't work. I have way too many problems on my own and wouldn't want to drag another person into this and besides this I'm also not very popular with women and I don't even know christian women my age so the chances are 0,0000000001%. I also have other problems than going out there looking for a wife I just ask myself how to deal with the whole masturbation issue. I don't really think that it's possible to "overcome" it. I tried it many times in the past sometimes more serious and sometimes less serious but it was only a matter of days or weeks until I did it again and then my whole determination was gone. I also see no sense in struggling like a dog day in day out and what also can't be denied is that masturbation helps against stress so when I'm stressed out then afterwards I really feel better compared to not doing it because then the tensed feeling remains. What would really suck is that if masturbation wasn't forbidden and then a person struggles with this and makes life harder than it has to be. But what if it's a sin and one thinks it's not a sin then this would also be bad.
In order to not feel guilty about it I had to somehow know with certainty that it's not a sin but since christians don't agree how can one get certainty? And even if one could know for sure that it's not a sin in and of itself then there would still be the problem of thinking about something sinful. Then what do you do if you're worried about accidentally getting a sinful thought and then you focus on not thinking anything sinful with the result that you think exactly about what you don't want to think about? Then it would again be a sin.

And another risk is that when I try to not touch then the chances of watching inappropriate content also increase. In the end I might want to do all right and not touch and then I end up watching inappropriate content + masturbating and then I messed up even worse. I talked about this with a christian friend who's married and told him that even if M is a sin then it's definitely better than watching inappropriate content and he came across like a cold telling me there are no huge and small sins.

 

[ghendricks63]

But does this only apply to married people? If a christian is single and also not going to marry then would he have to "burn with lust" as Paul put it or would it be allowed for him to also have some "fun"? I mean it's not like you can say okay I'm gonna marry because therefor you also need another person and I also don't want to marry because that wouldn't work. I have way too many problems on my own and wouldn't want to drag another person into this and besides this I'm also not very popular with women and I don't even know christian women my age so the chances are 0,0000000001%. I also have other problems than going out there looking for a wife I just ask myself how to deal with the whole masturbation issue. I don't really think that it's possible to "overcome" it. I tried it many times in the past sometimes more serious and sometimes less serious but it was only a matter of days or weeks until I did it again and then my whole determination was gone. I also see no sense in struggling like a dog day in day out and what also can't be denied is that masturbation helps against stress so when I'm stressed out then afterwards I really feel better compared to not doing it because then the tensed feeling remains. What would really suck is that if masturbation wasn't forbidden and then a person struggles with this and makes life harder than it has to be. But what if it's a sin and one thinks it's not a sin then this would also be bad.
In order to not feel guilty about it I had to somehow know with certainty that it's not a sin but since christians don't agree how can one get certainty? And even if one could know for sure that it's not a sin in and of itself then there would still be the problem of thinking about something sinful. Then what do you do if you're worried about accidentally getting a sinful thought and then you focus on not thinking anything sinful with the result that you think exactly about what you don't want to think about? Then it would again be a sin.

And another risk is that when I try to not touch then the chances of watching inappropriate content also increase. In the end I might want to do all right and not touch and then I end up watching inappropriate content + masturbating and then I messed up even worse. I talked about this with a christian friend who's married and told him that even if M is a sin then it's definitely better than watching inappropriate content and he came across like a cold telling me there are no huge and small sins.

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. Romans 14:22

In matters where scripture is not crystal clear we have freedom.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Lawtonfogle,
essentially yes.

Neither.

Did Jesus stone the woman who committed adultery? Are we not to be like Jesus?

Firstly Jesus NT teaching includes passages such as Matthew 19 and 1 Cor 7. In Matthew 19, “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality (inappropriate contentos), and marries another woman commits adultery.”

As shown here, it is talking about sex outside of the marriage, when the marriage exist.

and 1 Cor 7 “..because of so much sexual immorality (inappropriate contentos) each man should have his own wife…”
So ‘inappropriate contenteia’ is sexual intercourse outside marriage.
As was said, it isn’t difficult. Its only difficult and sets the mind to all kinds of strange thinking when the text isn’t believed.

The issue is the sexual activity outside of marriage once married. You see, if Bob and Jane sleep together, and then Joe and Jane sleep together, even though they are all unmarried by modern standards, by God's standards Bob and Jane formed a couple when they slept together, and in God's society, would have been married. Thus Joe and Jane are committing inappropriate contenteia. The only way to avoid this is to take a clearly designated spouse. Any other sleeping around will quickly lead to inappropriate contenteia due to the relationships formed in the eyes of God, even if man refuses to recognize them.

 

[lawtonfogle]

You are correct...I failed to recognize that you meant not equal with the "!=" symbol. My apologies. What is wrong with using words?

I'm a computer scientist. != means 'does not equal' more than "does not equal" means 'does not equal'.

As for your sex=marriage statement...you have a long way to go in proving your conclusion.

There is, to my knowledge, no other verse speaking about sex outside of marriage between two people who were, up till that point, sexually pure.

You are not really suggesting that the present day marriage relationship of mutual loving submission is the same as the property rights over women in the old testament are you?

I am saying the God that resided over the society that implemented such back then is the same as the one who resides over the earth today and forever. Normal theology says He doesn't change His positions on such.

The only way to get around this is to say the verses that command marriage as the punishment for premarital sex are the work of men, not God, and if you are willing to say that, then why not just say that about what Paul's writing on the subject says as well. As the Bible says, all things are permissible.

 

[nikkey76]

But does this only apply to married people? If a christian is single and also not going to marry then would he have to "burn with lust" as Paul put it or would it be allowed for him to also have some "fun"? I mean it's not like you can say okay I'm gonna marry because therefor you also need another person and I also don't want to marry because that wouldn't work. I have way too many problems on my own and wouldn't want to drag another person into this and besides this I'm also not very popular with women and I don't even know christian women my age so the chances are 0,0000000001%. I also have other problems than going out there looking for a wife I just ask myself how to deal with the whole masturbation issue. I don't really think that it's possible to "overcome" it. I tried it many times in the past sometimes more serious and sometimes less serious but it was only a matter of days or weeks until I did it again and then my whole determination was gone. I also see no sense in struggling like a dog day in day out and what also can't be denied is that masturbation helps against stress so when I'm stressed out then afterwards I really feel better compared to not doing it because then the tensed feeling remains. What would really suck is that if masturbation wasn't forbidden and then a person struggles with this and makes life harder than it has to be. But what if it's a sin and one thinks it's not a sin then this would also be bad.
In order to not feel guilty about it I had to somehow know with certainty that it's not a sin but since christians don't agree how can one get certainty? And even if one could know for sure that it's not a sin in and of itself then there would still be the problem of thinking about something sinful. Then what do you do if you're worried about accidentally getting a sinful thought and then you focus on not thinking anything sinful with the result that you think exactly about what you don't want to think about? Then it would again be a sin.

And another risk is that when I try to not touch then the chances of watching inappropriate content also increase. In the end I might want to do all right and not touch and then I end up watching inappropriate content + masturbating and then I messed up even worse. I talked about this with a christian friend who's married and told him that even if M is a sin then it's definitely better than watching inappropriate content and he came across like a cold telling me there are no huge and small sins.

Wow my ex husband use to have that issue and we were married. I was ok with it at first but when it became his "dirty little secret" I became really bothered by it.

Once we separated and divorced he admitted he knew it was a sin but couldn't help himself. I have to say I have never felt the need to M. Even after being divorced for 5 years. (maybe theres something wrong with me?)

I wonder if women have the same fight to suppress those urges. I hear men speak more openly about it but never women. Why is that?

 

[ghendricks63]

Wow my ex husband use to have that issue and we were married. I was ok with it at first but when it became his "dirty little secret" I became really bothered by it.

Once we separated and divorced he admitted he knew it was a sin but couldn't help himself. I have to say I have never felt the need to M. Even after being divorced for 5 years. (maybe theres something wrong with me?)

I wonder if women have the same fight to suppress those urges. I hear men speak more openly about it but never women. Why is that?

I feel sorry for those who live under such bondage. To attach the stigma of sin to a perfectly normal and healthy thing such as this is to live under a load of self induced shame and guilt. This is a sad fruit of a very misguided church.

 

[SullivanZ]

Christians normally say that it is a sin to lust. If you agree with this it seems it would be hard to use these objects without sinning.

If it can be done without sinning then I see no reason to think it would be wrong

Would it hijack the thread if I asked if it was possible to lust after your wife/husband? I mean if you want to have sex for a reason other than reproduction isn't that lust with love? Does that make it ok?

This is a common teaching by many Christians, that ALL lust, even towards one's spouse is wrong.

Most Christians have such a messed up, prudish, repressed view of human sexuality, they would never dare be attracted to their OWN spouse, for fear of eternal hellfire! Yeesh.

 

[Jim Bob]

And also, how could one not feel condemned? I mean as soon as you hear a pastor say "masturbation is sin!" or "those who touch will be punished" or "if you touch you can forget about getting close to God" then this is already enough to create this nagging thoughts what if this is the reason why I'm not a happy christian? What if that's it? But I thought the same about secular cds. One time after listening to a sermon I destroyed between 20 and 30 cds and thought maybe that is the reason but after destroying them nothing changed.
You can basically do this with everything. You can say if your relationship with God sucks then it's because of masturbating or listening to secular music or watching action movies.

And another problem is thinking sinful thoughts. I mean it is possible to do it without thinking anything sinful but in order to do this one really has to concentrate and the danger is that by trying too hard to not think about anything sinful then this could lead to the exact opposite like telling somebody not to think about pink elephants and then he thinks about pink elephants. How can you be sure that you were totally able to not think about anything sexual all the time? I don't know if that's really possible because the more one tries not to think about something the harder it gets.

I also wonder if one thinks about having sex with an imaginary woman then is this the same as lusting after a real woman which one knows?
When Jesus talked about lusting after women and adultery then to me it seems like he was addressing married men. Or was he also saying this for unmarried people that whenever you see a woman and lust after her you commit adultery? But how can one commit adultery when ones not married?

 

[Jim Bob]

I understand what you mean but since it's so different to what you hear in church it's hard to accept somehow. And I don't think that God advocates having multiples wives. The bible also says that a man will leave his parents and then be one flesh with his wife. I think that God simply tolerated many things in the old testament which were not really the way he liked it simply because the people didn't know it any better but I wouldn't conclude from this that one can have multiple wives like David.

/As for lusting
When you think this through then you could walk around on the street and look after every beautiful woman you walk by and imagine having sex with her and it would not be a sin because even if they are married then you cannot know this. The only thing which would be a sin would be to imagine sex with a married woman and everything else would not be a sin. But if you embraced lustful thoughts in such a way and thought about sex then your thoughts would become more and more unclean and you'd probably think about sex all day. I think this would not end good.
And the bible also says to only think about that which is pure. I dont think that imagining having sex with an imaginary woman or a real woman which isnt married is pure.

But I also think that lusting after a woman isn't adultery unless of course you are married. Taking what Jesus said and then saying if a teenager lusts after a classmate then he's committing adultery is totally silly and I don't think that Jesus meant that because he was talking about adultery and telling the people that adultery is not just cheating on your wife but already wanting to cheat on her without actually doing it. This also makes sense. The intention alone is already enough. But then saying everybody who lusts after a woman is an adulterer is reading more into the text than there is.

edit:
I just looked up the verse and Jesus said everyone or whosoever. This sounds like he refers to anybody and not just married men otherwise he would have said every married man who looks at a woman with lust.

bible.cc/matthew/5-28.htm