Obey the Sabbath!

Soyeong said:

Indeed, Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of hue to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Being a Christian is about following Christ’s example, not about trying to turn God’s word against following Christ.

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You didn’t answer the question, do you follow His example? Do you keep all 613 commandments like He did, or do you even try to keep all of them?

BNR32FAN said:

You didn’t answer the question, do you follow His example? Do you keep all 613 commandments like He did, or do you even try to keep all of them?

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Indeed, I follow Christ’s example, though obviously no one has ever been required to keep all 613 commandments, and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Moreover, even if I were refusing to follow Christ’s example, then it wouldn’t change the fact that followers of God ought to follow His commandments in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

Soyeong said:

Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4)

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Even though this has repeatedly been pointed, posters continue to mislead readers about this text.

The majority of translations have "sin is lawlessness", or something equivalent. Lawlessness is a general concept, with no required specificity to the Law of Moses.

Soyeong said:

Indeed, I follow Christ’s example, though obviously no one has ever been required to keep all 613 commandments, and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Moreover, even if I were refusing to follow Christ’s example, then it wouldn’t change the fact that followers of God ought to follow His commandments in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

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Following His commandments and following His example are two different things. Jesus never commanded anyone to observe the sabbath, yet He did observe it Himself.

Ok you’re obviously avoiding my question so let me rephrase it. Do you at least try to obey every single commandment that Jesus obeyed?

It is impossible to follow every single commandment of the Law!
For one, there is no Temple to offer sacrifices.
We are saved and justified FREELY by grace through faith not by observing Sabbaths, sacrifices or any other part of the Law.

Soyeong said:

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believer or it does not

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This is just a false statement. This is your doctrine, but it is provable neither from scripture, nor from reason.

Simon_Templar said:

This is just a false statement. This is your doctrine, but it is provable neither from scripture, nor from reason.

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If that were a false statement, then it would violate the law of non-contradiction. By all means, please explain how it is in accordance with reason for that statement to be both true and false.

Soyeong said:

If that were a false statement, then it would violate the law of non-contradiction. By all means, please explain how it is in accordance with reason for that statement to be both true and false.

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Ok


Here is your original statement...

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believer or it does not

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The reason your statement can be false, without violating the law of non-contradiction is because you include the word "ever".

The law of noncontradiction is great, I love it What the law of noncontradiction says is that contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense, at the same time.

Notice "at the same time".

When you put the word "ever" in your sentence it makes your sentence mean "this list must be exhaustive or not exhaustive, both when it was issued and forever after."

What I am saying is that the list was exhaustive when it was issued, but later on it was changed. I'm not saying the list was both exhaustive and not exhaustive at the same time (that time being when it was issued).

Using an illustration, If I were to say "Jim is alive right now, but he is also dead" this could be correct, if I was using "alive" and "dead" in different senses. So he is alive physically, and he is dead emotionally. But it would be meaningless contradiction if I meant it in the same sense, both alive and dead meaning literally physically.

Similarly if I said "Jim is alive" and two weeks later I said "Jim is dead" that would not be a contradiction if Jim had died in the meantime, because I'm not saying it at the same time.


Another point that is worth making here, which a lot of Christians seem to no longer understand, is the difference between doctrine and discipline.
The authority of binding and loosing dealt with the application of the law. Those terms were used among the Jewish rabbis to describe their authority to allow a practice or a forbid a practice as an application of the law to daily life.

That is discipline.

Doctrine is about teaching spiritual and moral truth. That would be equivalent in the OT to saying what the Law IS and how it should be understood.

Discipline is about application of truth to moral practice based on current circumstances.
Doctrine is about elucidating moral and spiritual truth.

Disciplines can be changed and they are usually not moral absolutes in themselves.
Doctrines, can develop as we grow in understanding, but they cannot change in the sense that it was once true and now it is not true any longer.

For example, forbidding eating meat offered to idols was a discipline. It was forbidden because it was seen as a dangerous practice culturally and avoiding it was good for both individual spiritual health and the spiritual health of the community. Paul makes this clear when he talks about eating meat sacrificed to idols. He clearly teaches that it is not inherently immoral. The council forbade it because of practical reasons, not moral reasons. The same is true with eating blood and eating things strangled.

Sexual immorality, on the other hand, is not a matter of mere discipline. It is a matter of doctrine.

The Church has the authority to remove or add disciplines as circumstances change. Once sacrificing animals to idols was basically eradicated from Western Civilization, the prohibition against eating things sacrificed to idols was no longer necessary because it could not cause scandal to the Church and hurt the faith of our brothers. As a result, it was removed.

The Church cannot remove doctrines. As such the Church cannot and never has said it is now ok to engage in sexual immorality.

John G. said:

It is impossible to follow every single commandment of the Law!
For one, there is no Temple to offer sacrifices.

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That's ok because it has never been required for a single person to follow every single commandment, and not even Jesus followed the ones in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some commandments were only for the King, the High priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who are widowed, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others were given to everyone. The Israelites were given a number of laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land...", so there is nothing wrong with not following laws that can't currently be followed. When the Israelites were exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the temple, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which contained instructions in regard to temple practice that they couldn't follow, so God honored their faithfulness to obey the laws that they could obey.

John G. said:

We are saved and justified FREELY by grace through faith not by observing Sabbaths, sacrifices or any other part of the Law.

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God's law was never given as a way of earning our justification (Romans 4:1-5), though it is still true that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be doers of the law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

expos4ever said:

Even though this has repeatedly been pointed, posters continue to mislead readers about this text.

The majority of translations have "sin is lawlessness", or something equivalent. Lawlessness is a general concept, with no required specificity to the Law of Moses.

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Sin is not the transgression of any sort of law that can be given, but rather there is a context that the lawlessness in 1 John 3:4 is in regard to, namely the Law of God. If you ask a Jew about what the means was through which God revealed what sin is, then they would tell you that it was through the Torah, which is accordance with Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7, so that is the context of how we should understand what we are being instructed to do when the Bible calls for repentance from our sins. Sin is what is contrary to God's character, such as with righteousness being in accordance with God's character while unrighteousness is sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God because it was giving to divide between what is in accordance with or contrary to God's character.

Soyeong said:

If that were a false statement, then it would violate the law of non-contradiction. By all means, please explain how it is in accordance with reason for that statement to be both true and false.

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Still don’t want to answer the question? Do you try to follow Jesus’ example by obeying the same commandments that He did?

BNR32FAN said:

Following His commandments and following His example are two different things. Jesus never commanded anyone to observe the sabbath, yet He did observe it Himself.

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So you imagine that Jesus was hypocritically taking the position that we should do as he said, but not as he did? There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that we should only follow the commands that Jesus repeated and should reject his example, but rather we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he was of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about whether we should obey His word, but rather he is God's word made flesh, so we have no need for him to have repeated anything in order for us to know that we should still obey the Father by walking in His way, though Jesus did teach how to keep the Sabbath through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic.

BNR32FAN said:

Ok you’re obviously avoiding my question so let me rephrase it. Do you at least try to obey every single commandment that Jesus obeyed?

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How can anyone reasonably think that I have not directly answered your question twice now? What good will it do to repeat it for a third time?

Soyeong said:

How can anyone reasonably think that I have not directly answered your question twice now? What good will it do to repeat it for a third time?

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You replied to the post but you never answered the question. Where is your answer to the question “Did you keep all 613 commandments that Jesus kept”?

Soyeong said:

Indeed, Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of hue to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Being a Christian is about following Christ’s example, not about trying to turn God’s word against following Christ.

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Below is your second reply where you pointed out the obvious that there are a couple commandments that didn’t pertain to him but obviously the context of the question was do you keep the entire Mosaic law and you keep refusing to answer because you know you don’t.

Soyeong said:

Indeed, I follow Christ’s example, though obviously no one has ever been required to keep all 613 commandments, and not even Jesus kept the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Moreover, even if I were refusing to follow Christ’s example, then it wouldn’t change the fact that followers of God ought to follow His commandments in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

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So because of your response above where your trying to skirt around the question I had to rephrase it to try to get a straight answer from you and again in your reply below you still refused to answer it a third time.

Soyeong said:

How can anyone reasonably think that I have not directly answered your question twice now? What good will it do to repeat it for a third time?

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So just be honest about the discussion and admit that you don’t follow His example. There’s nothing wrong with not following His example because the expectations have changed and you know this, we are not required to observe the entire Mosaic law in the New Covenant. The only reason you don’t want to admit that you don’t follow Jesus’ example is because it nullifies your argument that we’re supposed to follow His example.

Soyeong said:

So you imagine that Jesus was hypocritically taking the position that we should do as he said, but not as he did?

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I don’t feel like you’re thinking through your reply here before you posted it. Was Jesus circumcised? Are we still obligated to be circumcised? Did Jesus offer burnt offering? Are we still obligated to offer burnt offerings? Did Jesus observe the Passover? Are we still obligated to observe the Passover? Did Jesus observe the New Moon feasts? Are we still obligated to observe the New Moon feasts? I mean I can go all day here pointing out all of the commandments that Jesus observed that you know full well that we are not obligated to observe anymore so why dance around the issue? So let’s just put all the cards on the table, you made a mistake so just own up to it. Pretending it never happened only discredits you as being honest about the discussion.

Soyeong said:

There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that we should only follow the commands that Jesus repeated and should reject his example

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Except for the fact that He observed every one of the commandments I listed above that you know we are not commanded to observe, some of which we can’t observe because there isn’t a temple for us to observe them in as God commanded. So in conclusion you should stop trying to use the argument that because Jesus observed the sabbath we must do the same because Peter said we must follow His example. Because obviously Peter didn’t use that same argument in Acts 15 in reference to circumcision, and neither did Paul, or James. The only people who would’ve used such an argument are the people Paul was refuting in the beginning of the chapter. The SDA does not follow Jesus’ example of keeping God’s commandments because they do not teach or follow all of the commandments that Jesus kept. It’s a hypocritical statement so you should stop using it.

Christfollower7 said:

There are some (usually about 10% of Christians), who would say that Christians should worship/obey the letter of the law in obeying the Sabbath on a Saturday. In fact, they would say that if you go to church and worship the Lord on a Sunday, you are living in sin. Particularly those in the SDA denomination.

Are Christians required to keep the Sabbath? Keep in mind, Sabbath is observed from sundown on Friday to sundown the next day (Saturday). And the Torrah outlines the specific rules and regulations on the careful observance of the Sabbath (i.e. no baking and cooking, no travelling, no kindling fire, gathering wood, buying and selling).

Also, the Jewish works of the Mishnah detail the careful observance of the Sabbath, along with the 39 Melakhot, which details 39 categories of careful observance of the Shabbat. There are also other volume sets of books that detail precise pinpointed rules and regulations of how to not carry a burden on the Sabbath.

Where are the lines in the sand drawn with God's order/commandment with obeying the Sabbath? Is a Christian living in sin, if he works on Saturday...or goes to church on Sunday? Are 90% of Christians who go to church on Sunday, all living in sin?

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Only God can reverse His blessings or commandments. Num 23:20 Exo 5:18-30 I find it ironic that most Christians believe we should keep 9 commandments, despite God writing with His own Finger Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 32:16 Exo 34:28 Exo 31:18and teach to forget the one commandment that God said to Remember. The one commandment that God blessed, sanctified and made holy. The only law that reveals God is our Creator Exo 20:11 - so I see why the devil has been attacking it from the beginning. It was even warned it would happen in scripture Dan 7:25

There is no scripture in all of God’s Word that says we can bypass the Sabbath in lieu of our own traditions. Something Jesus condemned Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:8-13.

People use Paul’s writing and pit them against Jesus as if he taught something different. No wonder why we have this warning about Paul 2 Peter 3:16 Paul was a servant of Christ- and obeyed all of His commandments and why scripture shows Paul and all the disciples kept every Sabbath decades after the Cross Acts 13:42-44 Acts 18:4 - thats a lot of Sabbath-keeping. He was a faithful servant as should we be.

I’m sticking with Christ teachings, He will never lead us down the wrong path.

Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil


6,“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

Should we not want to keep justice and do righteousness? Should we not want to join ourselves to the Lord, to love His name and serve Him? This is what Jesus in His own Words equates to Sabbath-keeping, which He blesses. Should we not want to be blessed by Him? Only God can reverse His blessing and to me its mind blowing how people think they can reverse something God blessed and wrote with His own finger. Jesus said, not one jot or tittle can pass from His law until all is fulfilled May 5:19-30 which is when Jesus comes in the clouds and His saints meet Him in the air. He will wipe away all tears and no more sin or sinners, just peace. Isa 48:18

Christfollower7 said:

There are some (usually about 10% of Christians), who would say that Christians should worship/obey the letter of the law in obeying the Sabbath on a Saturday. In fact, they would say that if you go to church and worship the Lord on a Sunday, you are living in sin. Particularly those in the SDA denomination.

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Seventh-day Adventists teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

expos4ever said:

Even though this has repeatedly been pointed, posters continue to mislead readers about this text.

The majority of translations have "sin is lawlessness", or something equivalent. Lawlessness is a general concept, with no required specificity to the Law of Moses.

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if only those posters would continue to read 1jn3: they would fin the following;
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

We are told repetitively in the New Testament that we are not under the Law yet we are told by those who believe we have to keep the Sabbath of the Law. 2Cor 3 KJV even tells us the ten commandments are done away (verse11) yet those same people deny the verse is referring to the ten commandments. OY! In Eph2 we read:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.

Those same people deny those verses because of preconceived beliefs.