Florida judge exonerates Miami teacher fired for refusing to use student’s preferred pronouns

A2SG

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Then why bring it up?
I didn't. You did. I responded.

Well it seems like the only way they can know is through the student...since it would be the student who would have to explain their pronouns.
Who can say? It doesn't matter anyway, since the judge ruled the teacher's faith supersedes school policy, but no other faiths do.

How? How did he favor the teacher's faith?
He ruled in her favor, declaring her faith superseded school policy, and the student's faith, as he determined it to be.

There's that claim you keep making but fail to provide evidence for....


See post #53 empty claim #2 that I listed.

You're just repeating yourself again.
Is there an echo in here?

I keep hearing the same things from you I always hear from you.

-- A2SG, gee, if only I'd predicted you'd act that way...oh wait....
 
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Ana the Ist

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I didn't. You did. I responded.

You said...

Recognized it, and then denigrated it, and then ruled against it *snip*.

The judge isn't obligated to respect someone's religion....just treat it fairly under the law.

Who can say? It doesn't matter anyway, since the judge ruled the teacher's faith supersedes school policy

The school policy favored the student's faith.


He ruled in her favor, declaring her faith superseded school policy

A policy that favored the student's faith.

Again, it's a public school. If you want a school run by drag queens and sexually confused teachers....you can help them build a private school.

Is there an echo in here?

Apparently. If you can come up with an example of the judge favoring one faith over the other....feel free to get back to me.

At this point, you appear to have abandoned empty claim #1 and altered empty claim #2 from saying that judge favored one faith over the other....to saying that the judge favored the teacher's faith over "school policy".

Yes....he did...since that policy was faith based, violated the teacher's freedom of belief and speech and therefore, was illegal.

Hopefully this precedent is set and becomes the standard for all public schools.


 
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A2SG

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You said...

Recognized it, and then denigrated it, and then ruled against it *snip*.

The judge isn't obligated to respect someone's religion....just treat it fairly under the law.
I know. I never said he was obligated to respect every faith equally...I simply pointed out his obvious dislike of the student's faith, as he characterized it, and wondered how that may have figured into his ruling when he decided that the students faith, as he characterized it, has less legal protection than the teacher's.

The school policy favored the student's faith.
I don't know if that's the case at all. You'll have to show me that the school characterized a student's gender preference as a faith, like the judge determined. As far as I can tell, the school policy only indicated that teachers should use a student's preferred pronouns. The same principle could be said to apply to a student's preferred nickname rather than the name on their birth certificate, Chuck for Charles as an example. Far as I can tell, the school didn't characterize preferences as anything more than that. There certainly is no indication it was elevated to the status of a faith. Only the judge made that determination. Though, I don't know if the judge would also consider nicknames as similarly faith-based, since he made no mention of that.

Maybe if the next case is a teacher deciding that calling a student Chuck instead of Charles goes against their religion, then we'll find out how Judge Van Laningham feels about that.

A policy that favored the student's faith.
You'll have to show me that the school also considered the students pronoun use to be faith-based. So far as I can tell, only the judge believed that. Well, the judge and you, it seems.

Again, it's a public school. If you want a school run by drag queens and sexually confused teachers....you can help them build a private school.
I don't live in Florida, I have no say in how they run their schools down there, nor would I want to.

Apparently. If you can come up with an example of the judge favoring one faith over the other....feel free to get back to me.
I have. As per usual, you just keep pretending it's wearing Harry Potter's invisibility cloak.

At this point, you appear to have abandoned empty claim #1 and altered empty claim #2 from saying that judge favored one faith over the other....to saying that the judge favored the teacher's faith over "school policy".
No alteration. He did both.

Yes....he did...since that policy was faith based, violated the teacher's freedom of belief and speech and therefore, was illegal.
You have yet to demonstrate the school considers pronoun use to be a faith. So far, only Judge Van Laningham said that.

Hopefully this precedent is set and becomes the standard for all public schools.

I'm not going to bother explaining how law works if you're unable to understand the concept of this case ruling applying to this case and not others.

-- A2SG, boy does that sound eerily familiar.....
 
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MrMoe

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At what point did I say I didn't accept this ruling? I'm commenting on it, as requested, nothing more, nothing less.

-- A2SG, if you don't want to hear my opinions, feel free to ignore them....or, in Ana's case, not specifically ask for them.....

Oh so you do accept this ruling? With all the complaining you're doing about the judges decision favoring one faith over the other I thought you were apposed to their ruling.
 
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A2SG

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Oh so you do accept this ruling?
I accept that it's the ruling of the court, sure.

With all the complaining you're doing about the judges decision favoring one faith over the other I thought you were apposed to their ruling.
I can accept that it happened, same as I accept that Trump was once elected to the office of President, and still comment on it, can't I? Isn't that what this forum is for?

-- A2SG, I'm not sure I'd characterize my comments as complaining, exactly, but you are, of course, free to interpret it any way you like....
 
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Belk

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Oh so you do accept this ruling? With all the complaining you're doing about the judges decision favoring one faith over the other I thought you were apposed to their ruling.
You do understand that accepting something and agreeing with it are two different things?
 
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MrMoe

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I accept that it's the ruling of the court, sure.


I can accept that it happened, same as I accept that Trump was once elected to the office of President, and still comment on it, can't I? Isn't that what this forum is for?

I don't doubt that you accept it, but I find it strange you didn't have this issue about the student's faith being imposed upon when It was the Christian teacher's faith being imposed upon. You said the teacher should find another job if they didn't want to follow the school's policy, well I say this student should find another school if they don't want to abide by the judge's ruling.


-- A2SG, I'm not sure I'd characterize my comments as complaining, exactly, but you are, of course, free to interpret it any way you like....

You characterized other members comments concerning a trans student as complaints in the other thread, and if I just swapped out the student with the teacher in your comments in this thread they would sound very similar. So I would characterize them as complaints.
 
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rjs330

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This is an important ruling. It could help in dealing with other employer policies regarding the use of pronouns. Employers who force one employee to adhere to another employees faith by the words they use should be made to understand they cannot do that. These HR policies are a violation of a person's right to free speech and a right to their own beliefs. In THIS case the judge clearly ruled a HR policy cannot favor one faith based belief over another and force one person to follow the tenets of another's belief and place those above their own.

It's honestly a sad thing that a religious argument had to be made instead of a scientific, rational, psychological, and medical argument or biological argument. It's wild to consider that these things are irrelevant to the transgender issue. What tipped the scale was a religious one. The teacher didn't have to try and explain how the student claiming they were a member of the opposite sex was an unscientific, irrational claim that violated biology. The teacher didn't have to argue that the research on this subject has been found to be junk science and those who are following it psychologically damaging people. The teacher didn't have to show the medical community is conducting medical experiments on children and the physical and mental al harm that's being done. Nope they just had to say it violated their religious freedoms.
 
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A2SG

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I don't doubt that you accept it, but I find it strange you didn't have this issue about the student's faith being imposed upon when It was the Christian teacher's faith being imposed upon. You said the teacher should find another job if they didn't want to follow the school's policy, well I say this student should find another school if they don't want to abide by the judge's ruling.
Fine. You're entitled to your opinion. Though, to be honest, I don't recall the student saying anything about not abiding by the judge's ruling. Maybe that was in a different article than the one posted here.

You characterized other members comments concerning a trans student as complaints in the other thread, and if I just swapped out the student with the teacher in your comments in this thread they would sound very similar. So I would characterize them as complaints.
As I said, you are, of course, free to interpret it any way you like.

-- A2SG, far be it from me to tell you how to interpret stuff....
 
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Ana the Ist

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Though, to be honest, I don't recall the student saying anything about not abiding by the judge's ruling.

Nor will you find the student saying any such thing....because the judge didn't impose upon their faith.

The student is still free to believe whatever they want and use whatever pronouns they choose...they simply can't force anyone to play along with the threat of unemployment.

As it should be.
 
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Ana the Ist

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figured into his ruling when he decided that the students faith, as he characterized it, has less legal protection than the teacher's.

No he didn't, you admitted as much yourself in post #70. The student hasn't said anything about the judge's ruling because the judge didn't impose any ruling on the student.


I don't know if that's the case at all. You'll have to show me that the school characterized a student's gender preference as a faith, like the judge determined.

We've been over this....the school can't magically test this fantasy version of gender that the student claims....they have to accept or reject it on faith.



Maybe if the next case is a teacher deciding that calling a student Chuck instead of Charles goes against their religion, then we'll find out how Judge Van Laningham feels about that.

This is a rather pathetic attempt at equivocation. Pronouns aren't nicknames. That's a fact, and all I really need to say to refute this fallacy.



You'll have to show me that the school also considered the students pronoun use to be faith-based.

They aren't evidence based....or the teacher probably wouldn't have any issues using them.



You have yet to demonstrate the school considers pronoun use to be a faith.

It doesn't really matter if the school considers it "faith based" or not....it is, by the very definition of the word faith.
 
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SuperCow

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Gender isn't entirely biological and your "clever" retort doesn't change the fact that an activist judge was imposing his religious beliefs on others.
No, the judge was protecting the right of the teacher to be able to express her opinion. For your statement to be true the judge would have to be imposing to the transgender student that he cannot hold his own opinion about his own gender. An activist judge is one that rules that one or the other cannot disagree.
 
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A2SG

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Nor will you find the student saying any such thing....because the judge didn't impose upon their faith.
But he did rule that the student's faith, as he determined it, shouldn't be accommodated, even as he ruled that the teacher's faith must be accommodated.

Different faiths, different rules, I guess.

The student is still free to believe whatever they want and use whatever pronouns they choose...
Just as the teacher has always been free to believe whatever she wishes, before and after the ruling.

they simply can't force anyone to play along with the threat of unemployment.
Yup. Some faiths must be accommodated, others not so much.

Back of the bus, you!

As it should be.
Yeah, your preference for the teacher's faith over other faiths, as determined by this judge, has been noted.

-- A2SG, seems an odd stance for an admitted atheist, but who am I to judge....
 
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A2SG

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No he didn't, you admitted as much yourself in post #70. The student hasn't said anything about the judge's ruling because the judge didn't impose any ruling on the student.
I never said he did.

What I said was (you only quoted part of it): "I know. I never said he was obligated to respect every faith equally...I simply pointed out his obvious dislike of the student's faith, as he characterized it, and wondered how that may have figured into his ruling when he decided that the students faith, as he characterized it, has less legal protection than the teacher's."

We've been over this....the school can't magically test this fantasy version of gender that the student claims....they have to accept or reject it on faith.
No one is expecting them to test anything, nor to accept or reject any part of it, on faith or any other way. All the school chose to allow were reasonable accommodations. For most people, using one pronoun over another one isn't all that unreasonable (no more so than using a nickname over the name on one's birth certificate), but apparently the teacher felt her faith required that she view this accommodation as particularly onerous. And the judge agreed, so mote it be.

A ruling on nicknames will probably come the next time that teacher is asked to call a student Chuck instead of Charles. Or Bart instead of Bartholomew.

This is a rather pathetic attempt at equivocation. Pronouns aren't nicknames. That's a fact, and all I really need to say to refute this fallacy.
I never said they were the same thing. I said they were comparable. And they are. The teacher is asked to use one pronoun instead of another one, just like she'd be asked to use one name over a different one. Comparable.

They aren't evidence based....or the teacher probably wouldn't have any issues using them.
Faith isn't evidence based either, and yet the teacher's faith must be accommodated. Not the student's faith, as determined by the judge, though. Just hers. Only hers.

It doesn't really matter if the school considers it "faith based" or not....it is, by the very definition of the word faith.
Pronoun use doesn't involve, or require, faith in anything whatsoever.

You don't even have to believe they're accurate to still use them. No more than you have to believe that Chuck is the name on the kid's birth certificate.

-- A2SG, now I got that song stuck in my head....Chuck, Chuck, Bo-Buck, banana-fanna fo....well, You get the idea....
 
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A2SG

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What does accommodated mean in this context?

He's not telling the teacher or student what to say.
The accommodation in this case was the school apparently allowed students to be called by preferred pronouns if they wished, just like they likely allow students to be called by a nickname rather than the name on their birth certificate: Chuck for Charles, as the example I've been using. Billy for William would also work, if you prefer.

Of course, now, to abide by the ruling, they can't enforce this accommodation, and teachers seem to be now allowed to call any student by any pronoun they wish to...so long as they claim their faith dictates it.

-- A2SG, wonder if that teacher will require a representative of her church to make sure she isn't "lying" when she refers to Charles as "Chuck"....
 
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Ana the Ist

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The accommodation in this case was the school apparently allowed students to be called by preferred pronouns if they wished,

Ok...the student's faith based accommodation is "controlling the speech of others".

Then the judge ruled correctly, since that's a violation of basic human rights, civil rights, and religious freedoms.

Edit-any confusion between pronouns and nicknames go ahead and see my previous post where I pointed out that they aren't the same. Names, even nicknames are proper nouns and can be unique to the individual, pronouns aren't and are common amongst individuals.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I never said he did.

What I said was (you only quoted part of it): "I know. I never said he was obligated to respect every faith equally...I simply pointed out his obvious dislike of the student's faith, as he characterized it, and wondered how that may have figured into his ruling when he decided that the students faith, as he characterized it, has less legal protection than the teacher's."


No one is expecting them to test anything, nor to accept or reject any part of it, on faith or any other way. All the school chose to allow were reasonable accommodations. For most people, using one pronoun over another one isn't all that unreasonable (no more so than using a nickname over the name on one's birth certificate), but apparently the teacher felt her faith required that she view this accommodation as particularly onerous. And the judge agreed, so mote it be.

A ruling on nicknames will probably come the next time that teacher is asked to call a student Chuck instead of Charles. Or Bart instead of Bartholomew.


I never said they were the same thing. I said they were comparable. And they are. The teacher is asked to use one pronoun instead of another one, just like she'd be asked to use one name over a different one. Comparable.


Faith isn't evidence based either, and yet the teacher's faith must be accommodated. Not the student's faith, as determined by the judge, though. Just hers. Only hers.


Pronoun use doesn't involve, or require, faith in anything whatsoever.

You don't even have to believe they're accurate to still use them. No more than you have to believe that Chuck is the name on the kid's birth certificate.

-- A2SG, now I got that song stuck in my head....Chuck, Chuck, Bo-Buck, banana-fanna fo....well, You get the idea....

I think we're done here...we both agree the judge denied the student's faith based belief in controlling the speech of others, namely, the student's teacher.
 
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A2SG

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Ok...the student's faith based accommodation is "controlling the speech of others".
Not really...but that's how the judge saw it, so I guess it is now.

In Florida, at least.

Then the judge ruled correctly, since that's a violation of basic human rights, civil rights, and religious freedoms.
Yup. And certain preferred faiths get to trump all of them.

But only the preferred faiths. Just them.

Everyone else, get to the back of the bus!

-- A2SG, it's morning in America again.....
 
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