Trump Hates Netanyahu, No Pro-Israel Candidate

Dale · Apr 2, 2024

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
Could you please elaborate on that? For someone who supposedly doesn't understand Israel, Trump did a lot of good things during his presidency that benefitted Israel. For someone who supposedly doesn't understand diplomacy, achieving something like the Abraham Accords - the first Israeli-Arab peace deal since 1994 - was a giant accomplishment. You may say that it wasn't Trump personally who negotiated it, but it happened under his administration, so I don't see how a similar thing couldn't happen in a future administration of his.
I have to say though, in the end I don't really care how much Trump understands the policies that come out of his presidency, if the policies are great. And his have been great with regards to Israel.

Especially if I had to choose between Trump and someone like Biden, who hasn't done a single thing for Israel during his presidency. Much of the opposite.

Trump is all about one-upmanship. He's obsessed with personalities, not facts.
Everything we know points to a second Trump term being dominated by revenge and recrimination.

As I said before, the Arab states began to reconcile with Israel because decades of hostility have gotten them nowhere, and specifically because they see the threat that Iran poses for the region. They are hoping that Israel can stop Iran.

I don't have to defend Joe Biden to point out that Donald Trump is hopeless.

hislegacy · Apr 2, 2024

Dale said:
It was a move by Benjamin Netanyahu to curry favor with Donald Trump, who was the US President at the time, with several years left in his term.

oh, did he do that with Obama? or Biden? or any other American President - perhaps Chuck Schumer, or another member of congress.

Or did he do it for the friendship and help he received from the former President. - the one that moved the Embassy to Jerusalem (always promised, never done), or perhaps because Trump was the first sitting President to visit the wailing wall.

Hazelelponi · Apr 5, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
So it's America's duty to defend at any cost to itself democracies and nations of immigrants anywhere and everywhere?

Congress actually placed a defense pact with Israel into law quite some time ago.

Long standing treaties that are ratified by Congress and now a matter of actual law isn't something you wriggle out of at will. Israel is our sister, and we have a legal responsibility towards her.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2024

Hazelelponi said:
Congress actually placed a defense pact with Israel into law quite some time ago.

Long standing treaties that are ratified by Congress and now a matter of actual law isn't something you wriggle out of at will. Israel is our sister, and we have a legal responsibility towards her.

If said defense pact is to America's detriment and goes against the USA's interests then it really doesn't do well to point to treaty obligations on paper to justify it.

The USA is not above opting out of its commitments and Israel isn't particularly special as a country.

Ultimately the USA should do what's in its interests and giving a blank check to a country as belligerent as Israel currently is, won't benefit the USA. Rather, like Serbia and Poland before it, it will use said guarantee to drag the USA into a conflict which should be entirely regional.

Hazelelponi · Apr 5, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If said defense pact is to America's detriment and goes against the USA's interests then it really doesn't do well to point to treaty obligations on paper to justify it.

The USA is not above opting out of its commitments and Israel isn't particularly special as a country.

Ultimately the USA should do what's in its interests and giving a blank check to a country as belligerent as Israel currently is, won't benefit the USA. Rather, like Serbia and Poland before it, it will use said guarantee to drag the USA into a conflict which should be entirely regional.

Sorry, self editing. Finding a better way to put it or just keeping my mouth shut.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2024

Hazelelponi said:
Sorry, but there's no "AMERICA has been taken over by Marxist's who are happy to throw our Allies to the terrorists who want to wipe them out" clause in these treaties...

You don't have to be a Marxist to question America's relationship with Israel. It really doesn't benefit America as much as it benefits Israel and if Israel is going to engage in a war of mass destruction against the Gazans, why does America have to be involved and support it? If both sides hate each other and no mediation can settle a conflict it isn't the USAs responsibility.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2024

Hazelelponi said:
There was plenty of time for you to have caught the edit before you posted..

I literally only saw your post 2 or 3 mins ago. Or however long ago.

Hazelelponi · Apr 5, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I literally only saw your post 2 or 3 mins ago. Or however long ago.

Okay well. I have to tell you that this is a highly emotional topic for me. It's very hard for me to discuss.

If I am too sharp I apologize, I honestly just don't understand why on earth any sane person could support this.

Hamas are really really really really really bad people.

Hamas has said, multiple, multiple times SINCE Oct. 7 that they will not stop until every single Jew is gone and Israel is dissolved.

Nothing.... Nothing..... Nothing. ... Nothing at all can happen so long as one member of Hamas is there. They have to go.

Many many Palestinians will die. It's called war.

War is not a game of tit for tat, this isn't grade school. In war you eradicate the enemy.

The enemy is Hamas and they hide behind Aide Orgs and the elderly, the infirm, and women and children to use them as tools for propaganda.

"We" don't have to do anything but support Israel on the world stage and ask they quickly do what must be done to take down Hamas because that is what is HUMANE, and in the end will result in peace more quickly, and help to end generational war.

And not even one step toward that end can occur so long as Hamas is there. And Hamas has proven there's only one way to get them out.

Only Israel can do what must be done right now. They're the only ones.

So, with tears in my own eyes I will turn my back, and place the blame exactly where the blame is warranted when I cry out to God for justice. And it's not on Israel's head. It's really not.

Dale · Apr 5, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If said defense pact is to America's detriment and goes against the USA's interests then it really doesn't do well to point to treaty obligations on paper to justify it.

The USA is not above opting out of its commitments and Israel isn't particularly special as a country.

Ultimately the USA should do what's in its interests and giving a blank check to a country as belligerent as Israel currently is, won't benefit the USA. Rather, like Serbia and Poland before it, it will use said guarantee to drag the USA into a conflict which should be entirely regional.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You don't have to be a Marxist to question America's relationship with Israel. It really doesn't benefit America as much as it benefits Israel and if Israel is going to engage in a war of mass destruction against the Gazans, why does America have to be involved and support it? If both sides hate each other and no mediation can settle a conflict it isn't the USAs responsibility.

Israel has freedom of religion. Saudi Arabia does not. That is among the many reasons I support Israel.
If you think Israel is belligerent, you are overlooking the thousands of missiles their Moslem enemies have fired at them in the last ten years, and before.

If you are a Marxist, you should support Israel because the gap between the lowest paid and highest paid Israeli employees is small. The gap is much smaller than it is in the US, for instance.

Hazelelponi · Apr 5, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I literally only saw your post 2 or 3 mins ago. Or however long ago.

I will delete the post and apologize to you and ask for your forgiveness because I falsely accused you. I am sorry it was completely unwarranted.

I'll bow out of the thread.

I support Israel, but it's not easy. War is never easy.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2024

Dale said:
Israel has freedom of religion. Saudi Arabia does not. That is among the many reasons I support Israel.
If you think Israel is belligerent, you are overlooking the thousands of missiles their Moslem enemies have fired at them in the last ten years, and before.

If you are a Marxist, you should support Israel because the gap between the lowest paid and highest paid Israeli employees is small. The gap is much smaller than it is in the US, for instance.

I am not a Marxist, nor do I respect freedom of religion as I am not a liberal. Rather I ask the basic question of national interest and ask how it is in America's interest to be involved with Israel.

The USA doesn't for instance care about countries like Armenia which are Christian. Why is Israel more special than Armenia? Is it rhe only country the USA has to defend no matter what?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2024

Hazelelponi said:
Okay well. I have to tell you that this is a highly emotional topic for me. It's very hard for me to discuss.

If I am too sharp I apologize, I honestly just don't understand why on earth any sane person could support this.

Hamas are really really really really really bad people.

Hamas has said, multiple, multiple times SINCE Oct. 7 that they will not stop until every single Jew is gone and Israel is dissolved.

Nothing.... Nothing..... Nothing. ... Nothing at all can happen so long as one member of Hamas is there. They have to go.

Many many Palestinians will die. It's called war.

War is not a game of tit for tat, this isn't grade school. In war you eradicate the enemy.

The enemy is Hamas and they hide behind Aide Orgs and the elderly, the infirm, and women and children to use them as tools for propaganda.

"We" don't have to do anything but support Israel on the world stage and ask they quickly do what must be done to take down Hamas because that is what is HUMANE, and in the end will result in peace more quickly, and help to end generational war.

And not even one step toward that end can occur so long as Hamas is there. And Hamas has proven there's only one way to get them out.

Only Israel can do what must be done right now. They're the only ones.

So, with tears in my own eyes I will turn my back, and place the blame exactly where the blame is warranted when I cry out to God for justice. And it's not on Israel's head. It's really not.

All I'm asking is why is it America's business. If Israelis and Palestinians are determined to kill and wipe each other out, let then have their war.

Hazelelponi · Apr 5, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
All I'm asking is why is it America's business. If Israelis and Palestinians are determined to kill and wipe each other out, let then have their war.

Because we made treaties with Israel. We consider her an ally and she's always been a major intelligence asset in the middle east.

Are you saying you want to rescind all of our treaties with Israel?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2024

Hazelelponi said:
Because we made treaties with Israel. We consider her an ally and she's always been a major intelligence asset in the middle east.

Are you saying you want to rescind all of our treaties with Israel?

Countries like people have interests and those interests are dependent on mutual benefit. If it doesn't benefit you to be a friend of someone who is dragging you into a conflict that ultimately doesn't benefit you.

It's not as if Israel isn't being provocative in attacking an Iranian foreign Embassy and If the situation were to escalate and Iran does get directly involved with Israel, which could call in the USA, which could call in the Russians on Iran's side, that's basically WW3.

And for what exactly? To honour a treaty? Have we learnt nothing from WW1 and WW2?

Hazelelponi · Apr 5, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Countries like people have interests and those interests are dependent on mutual benefit. If it doesn't benefit you to be a friend of someone who is dragging you into a conflict that ultimately doesn't benefit you.

It's not as if Israel isn't being provocative in attacking an Iranian foreign Embassy and If the situation were to escalate and Iran does get directly involved with Israel, which could call in the USA, which could call in the Russians on Iran's side, that's basically WW3.

And for what exactly? To honour a treaty? Have we learnt nothing from WW1 and WW2?

It's not as if Oct. 7 and years worth of Hamas initiative wasn't funded by Iran for years and years. This gorilla war with Hamas and Hezbollah IS Iran's proxy war with Israel - very similar to the Democrats proxy war with Russia in Ukraine, except it's Palestinian children being used as cannon fodder instead, and for more decades.

As an intelligence asset alone in the middle east, I'm pretty sure Israel has been worth everything for the last 20 years...

I believe we also have quite a bit of trade with Israel, I'll attach a sheet for 2022 that I found to provide edification at the bottom of this post.

But let's examine your position here.

So we legally rescind all the treaties and leave Israel to the wolves?

Don't you think our word means anything?

This is right to you? To walk away and watch them die because we can't be bothered suddenly?

What do you think will happen if we walk away. Have you ever thought our presence in the midst actually helps keeps the peace (however false), and is currently preventing the very conflagration your worried about?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 5, 2024

Hazelelponi said:
It's not as if Oct. 7 and years worth of Hamas initiative wasn't funded by Iran for years and years. This gorilla war with Hamas IS Iran's proxy war with Israel - very similar to the Democrats proxy war with Russia in Ukraine, except it's Palestinian children being used as cannon fodder instead, and for more decades.

Why does Iran doing what it does regionally affect the USA? Is the Middle East rightful US clay?

Hazelelponi said:
As an intelligence asset alone in the middle east, I'm pretty sure Israel has been worth everything for the last 20 years...

Why does the USA need an intelligence asset in the Middle East in the first place?

Hazelelponi said:
But let's examine your position here.

Sure

Hazelelponi said:
So we legally rescind all the treaties and leave Israel to the wolves?

If it's to the benefit of the USA, yes. Countries must look out for their own interests primarily. Problem is the USA is an Empire and seeks to maintain influence everywhere it can. The problem with empires is that vassals tend to drag their overlords into fights. Israel seemingly wants to pull the USA into a conflict with Iran.

If this is the case, why should any American be willing to die in Iran for the sake of Israel? Honest question. What is the argument that Americans must forfeit their lives for the sake of Israel?

Hazelelponi said:
This is right to you?

If it prevents further escalation and is to the benefit of the USA I don't see why it wouldn't be right, in terms of America's interests. Again, treaty obligations are only as good as insofar as they work to the benefit of a country. Britain for instance guaranteed Belgium against it's interests in WW1. Said treaty obligation was not worth getting involved in WW1, despite any honour or moral obligation.

Hazelelponi · Apr 6, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Why does Iran doing what it does regionally affect the USA? Is the Middle East rightful US clay?

Why does the USA need an intelligence asset in the Middle East in the first place?

Sure

If it's to the benefit of the USA, yes. Countries must look out for their own interests primarily. Problem is the USA is an Empire and seeks to maintain influence everywhere it can. The problem with empires is that vassals tend to drag their overlords into fights. Israel seemingly wants to pull the USA into a conflict with Iran.

If this is the case, why should any American be willing to die in Iran for the sake of Israel? Honest question. What is the argument that Americans must forfeit their lives for the sake of Israel?

If it prevents further escalation and is to the benefit of the USA I don't see why it wouldn't be right, in terms of America's interests. Again, treaty obligations are only as good as insofar as they work to the benefit of a country. Britain for instance guaranteed Belgium against it's interests in WW1. Said treaty obligation was not worth getting involved in WW1, despite any honour or moral obligation.

I'll be honest with you, I have never truly examined the real and actual benefits of the alliance between Israel and America.

My background being what it is, I know how to hate them, I am steeped in all to have against Israel... But I have never sought to learn what benefits there are to the very real alliance between our two nations.

I have been taking what is happening right now from the position that these are serious alliances (one written into actual US law, a rare rare event), and they have a benefit to what the US sees as it's interests in the middle east.

I personally, as a Christian, as a former Muslim, and as an American citizen, would like to see America withdraw from some of what it sees as it's interests in the middle east.

The meddling has never made sense, why take out democraticlly elected leaders because they want to nationalize their oil? Money money money...

then the Dems, under the pretence of fixing it all, installed religious extremists into power who sit to this day a threat to everyone around them.

we have been conducting a Marxist/Leninist foreign policy on the world stage for far too long, I agree.

I'm not a complete complete isolationist, but what we've got going on needs to be seriously rethought as a nation, and a lot of this nonsense has to stop.

that's just real.

However, we can't Afghanistan withdraw from the world stage either....

We have to do the right things, in the right way, for the right reasons or it will fail.

We have to take this from today; it's the day we actually live in and have before us to deal with, and say okay, how do we do x,y, and z in the right way....

This is what I'm trying to do.

And right now, this does mean support of Israel and for the foreseeable future.

Is there going to come a point where we should sit back down and decide whether to continue support, sure, nothing wrong with putting all the facts together and making sure we are still doing the right thing someday. But this isn't that day so far as I can see.

But what Biden is doing now? He and the Democratic party can't be more wrong... What they are doing proves they are the last people on earth who should be doing anything.

They are doing WW3... In just a few years we are on the brink and now just going to dump the Jews in the middle of it alone?

I can't even say on this forum what I really think of that...

Trying to ties Israel's hands and oust a democratically elected leader is no better than full on abandonment, because that's not peace either....

Peace is taking out Hamas (wholesale) and going back to the diplomacy table to rebuild and make sure everyone is good.

Peace is making the Arabs help the Palestinian people for once in their lives... Instead of using them as constant propaganda. (Palestinians should have had citizenship in all the surrounding nations already, lives, jobs, futures..)

And of course, peace, is helping them live as neighbors once the bad actors are gone.

If it's peace we are after - which I am. I care about real peace. Not everyone cares about the same thing.

Friedrich Rubinstein · Apr 6, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If this is the case, why should any American be willing to die in Iran for the sake of Israel? Honest question. What is the argument that Americans must forfeit their lives for the sake of Israel?

A ground invasion of Iran isn't even on the table (neither the US nor Israel have any interest in that), nor has Israel ever requested any American soldiers on the ground, despite fighting a number of existential threats throughout its history. All Israel is asking for is the ability to restock their weapon systems from American companies (like Iron Dome interceptors, JDAMs and Hellfire missiles).

When it comes to the value of US-Israel relationships, here's an excerpt from an article by the Washinton Institute, explaining how important the cooperation of the two countries is for the US:

The U.S.-Israeli alliance now contributes more than ever to American security, as bilateral cooperation to deal with both military and nonmilitary challenges has grown in recent years. The relationship may not be symmetrical; the United States has provided Israel with indispensable diplomatic, economic, and military support totaling more than $115 billion since 1949. But it is a two-way partnership whose benefits to the United States have been substantial. The other, less tangible costs of the U.S.-Israeli alliance -- mainly, damage to Washington's reputation in Arab and Muslim countries, a problem also caused by American interventions and decades of U.S. support for autocratic leaders in the Middle East -- pale in comparison with the economic, military, and political gains it affords Washington.

U.S.-Israeli security cooperation dates back to heights of the Cold War, when the Jewish state came to be seen in Washington as a bulwark against Soviet influence in the Middle East and a counter to Arab nationalism. Although the world has changed since then, the strategic logic for the U.S.-Israeli alliance has not. Israel remains a counterweight against radical forces in the Middle East, including political Islam and violent extremism. It has also prevented the further proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the region by thwarting Iraq and Syria's nuclear programs.

Israel continues to help the United States deal with traditional security threats. The two countries share intelligence on terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and Middle Eastern politics. Israel's military experiences have shaped the United States' approach to counterterrorism and homeland security. The two governments work together to develop sophisticated military technology, such as the David's Sling counter-rocket and Arrow missile defense systems, which may soon be ready for export to other U.S. allies. Israel has also emerged as an important niche defense supplier to the U.S. military, with sales growing from $300 million per year before September 11 to $1.1 billion in 2006, due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel's military research and development complex has pioneered many cutting-edge technologies that are transforming the face of modern war, including cyberweapons, unmanned vehicles (such as land robots and aerial drones), sensors and electronic warfare systems, and advanced defenses for military vehicles.

The U.S.-Israeli alliance has paved the way for the countries to cooperate on far more than just traditional security issues. In part because of the long-standing political and security relationship between the United States and Israel, most Israelis know the United States and harbor positive feelings toward it. Israeli companies looking for a global market for their products have often viewed their American counterparts as partners of choice. So today, Israeli civilian technological innovations are helping the United States maintain its economic competitiveness, promote sustainable development, and address a range of non-military security challenges.

Dozens of leading U.S. companies have set up technology incubators in Israel to take advantage of the country's penchant for new ideas, which is why Bill Gates observed in 2006 that the "innovation going on in Israel is critical to the future of the technology business." Likewise, Israeli high-tech firms often turn to U.S. companies as partners for joint production and marketing opportunities in the United States and elsewhere, creating tens of thousands of American jobs. And although Israelis make up just three percent of the population of the Middle East, in 2011 Israel was the destination of 25 percent of all U.S. exports to the region, having recently eclipsed Saudi Arabia as the top market there for American products.

U.S. companies' substantial cooperation with Israel on information technology has been crucial to Silicon Valley's success. At Intel's research and development centers in Israel, engineers have designed many of the company's most successful microprocessors, accounting for some 40 percent of the firm's revenues last year. If you've made a secure financial transaction on the Internet, sent an instant message, or bought something using PayPal, you can thank Israeli IT researchers.

Israeli innovators have also come up with novel solutions to the water and food security challenges posed by population growth, climate change, and economic development. By necessity, given the geography of the Middle East, Israel is a world leader in water conservation and management and high-tech agriculture. Israel recycles more than eighty percent of its wastewater -- the highest level in the world -- and has pioneered widely used techniques of conserving or purifying water, including drip irrigation and reverse osmosis desalination. And a number of Israeli companies are leaders in the development of renewable energy sources; BrightSource Industries, for example, is building a solar power plant in California using Israeli technology that will double the amount of solar thermal electricity produced in America. These innovations, bolstered by the substantial American investment in Israel, contribute to long-term U.S. domestic and foreign policy objectives relating to sustainable development.

Continued below, if intereted:
Washinton Institute - Why the US-Israel alliance is good for America

Dale · Apr 6, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am not a Marxist, nor do I respect freedom of religion as I am not a liberal. Rather I ask the basic question of national interest and ask how it is in America's interest to be involved with Israel.

The USA doesn't for instance care about countries like Armenia which are Christian. Why is Israel more special than Armenia? Is it rhe only country the USA has to defend no matter what?

I’m sure Americans do care about Armenia, even if it isn’t a centerpiece of foreign policy.

As for American self-interest, consider this. Right now, the Houthis in Yemen, backed by Iran, are attacking shipping in the Red Sea. That includes American ships, and other ships carrying goods being shipped to and from the USA. The American public is already screaming about inflation, and the situation in the Red Sea can only make it worse. We could wind up at war with Iran over that issue, even without Israel. Don’t blame everything on Israel.

As far as Israel somehow being the only country Americans care about, the US has no troops stationed in Israel. The US has bases and troops in numerous places around the world, and they generally help secure peace. The last time I checked, the US has 7,000 soldiers in Bahrain, an Arab country, for instance.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 6, 2024

Dale said:
I’m sure Americans do care about Armenia, even if it isn’t a centerpiece of foreign policy.

As for American self-interest, consider this. Right now, the Houthis in Yemen, backed by Iran, are attacking shipping in the Red Sea. That includes American ships, and other ships carrying goods being shipped to and from the USA. The American public is already screaming about inflation, and the situation in the Red Sea can only make it worse. We could wind up at war with Iran over that issue, even without Israel. Don’t blame everything on Israel.

As far as Israel somehow being the only country Americans care about, the US has no troops stationed in Israel. The US has bases and troops in numerous places around the world, and they generally help secure peace. The last time I checked, the US has 7,000 soldiers in Bahrain, an Arab country, for instance.

The Houthis are attacking American ships because of America's support for Israel. This is an additional cost for America of it's bizarre commitment to Israel. To say Americans care about Armenia means little because they don't care about that country or it's people. The American government didn't protest Azerbaijan invading Ngorno Karabakh and forcing Armenians there to leave. Nor would I suspect America would do anything if Armenia was invaded by Azerbaijan tommorow. Which should make us question the narrative you are apresenting that America will defend democracy worldwide. This being the case, why is Israel so special that it is worth the USA being drawn into a conflict with the Houthis?

I do think it's funny how the Houthis are able to curtail US shipping lanes through the red sea with some cheap rockets and the USA has been unable to stop them thus far.

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