Age of the earth.

Diamond7 said:

It is based on evidence that is subject to interpretation. Usually tree rings are ice core layers are considered to represent a year in time. Ice core samples go back 750 million years and tell us a lot about the earths atmosphere for all of those years. We know at the time of the dinosaurs the atmosphere was a lot more humid. They only species to survive are turtles and alligators and they still require very wet conditions. They also live a long life and get very big over time.

In Genesis 7:11 we read about how "the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.". Although I beleive Noah's flood was more of a shadow and type of the flood that took place at the time of Pandeva.

Leatherback sea turtles are the largest turtles on earth, growing to upwards of 7 feet in length and one ton in weight. The largest leatherback ever recorded was just shy of 10 feet long and weighed more than 2,000 pounds

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Ice rings don’t represent years they represent freezing temperatures and temperatures above freezing. You can have temperatures above freezing during the day causing the ice to melt and freezing temperatures at night causing it to freeze again and that’s how ice rings are formed. And tree rings aren’t caused by years either they’re caused by climate change and the amount of rainfall. Tress can grow multiple rings per year due to droughts or freezes that are spread months apart. What causes tree rings is growth spurts followed by growth halts. For example droughts in the summertime can cause a growth halt then it can have another growth halt in the winter time creating two rings in one year or you can have an early freeze like in October then moderate temperatures until March and have another freeze and that will also cause two growth halts in one year. And if you have a freeze in October then moderate weather and another freeze in March then moderate weather then a drought in summer that can cause three rings in one year. Not that it really matters because the oldest tree ever found is still only 4900 years old. Your welcome.

Diamond7 said:

I should have made myself more clear that the Rabbi (usually on YouTube) are Hasidic or Conservative Judaism. They do have beliefs that differ from what we believe as a Christian. But if we want to learn from them they are willing to teach us.

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This doesn't change the fact that the Kabballah is Jewish Mysticism. Mysticism is a known part of Hasidic/Chasidic Judaism. Mysticism by definition is a belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be gained through a intuition, insight, altered states of consciousness, hidden truths, esotericism, direct communication with spirits, meditation, magic practice, and often times rebuffing rigid doctrine and guidelines of the original belief systems they branch off from. It is primarily based on experience but this doesn't mean that those practicing any form of it are not into reason or evidence, but as I said the goal of any rationalities in mysticism is to justify their hidden truths, supposed direct connections to spirituality, etc.

One of the problems with Christian Mystics, for example, in history was that while yes, Christians can and do have what we might call mystical experiences with God (communication directly with Him, the Holy Spirit, visions, dreams, speaking in tongues, etc.) we have a guideline to align these things with. The Bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 14, for example, regarding the usage of speaking in tongues that if done in the midst of people there should be interpretation for the edification of those listening otherwise "Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:19) The point is that the Bible gives us a guideline to measure these experiences whereas the mystics often overemphasized spiritual experience without lining up the truth of these experiences with the Bible. So, in the past (and present) this is the reason some weird traditions that seem far more esoteric and magical found their way in churches.

Diamond7 said:

Also some people believe that during a 7 year tribulation period they will be God's witness and testimony on the Earth. (144,000)
Rev 7

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

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I'm not looking to derail this topic by getting into eschatology.

Diamond7 said:

In Bible school learn we the meaning of a word by context and the way that word is used. IN Hebrew we go far beyond that. The letters are more then phonics. Each letter has a meaning. We can better understand a word by looking at the meaning of the letters in that word.

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Again, many alphabets in the Ancient Near East (Middle East) were based on early hieroglyphics which were developed by using common meanings by utilizing pictographs to communicate information. Many of these alphabets have moved beyond this and many of the words still retain some form of their original meaning or concept. Much of this is the same in Hebrew. Even with the pictographs, some of the alphabets had multiple meanings as I said. What became the Aleph was an Ox Head that meant Ox, strength, leader. You couldn't or can't just randomly assign any definition to the Ox Head without context. So, either way you have to practice proper translation and linguistic understanding to gain the right meaning.

The other problem here is that there are several Middle Eastern or Semitic languages that come from that early hieroglyphic script. I've been severely oversimplifying everything here for the sake of conversation, but many of the languages (and their alphabets) from that area come from what is academically called a Proto-Semetic/Proto-Sinaitic/Proto-Canaanite script. It went on to influence Paleo-Hebrew, Phoenician and South Arabian scripts and even modern alphabets. So, if it's the case that we should incorporate the meanings of these letters based on their ancient meanings into understanding the Bible, then why don't we do that with everything since the early scripts influenced, also some of the current English alphabet (by way of Latin and Greek)?

We don't do that. We don't get into for example, based on the aforementioned early script that the "L" in my first name originally meant "authority" and the "E" in my first name originally meant "Look" and the "R" in my first name originally meant "head" so that means I'm an "Authority-Look-Head." I mean, what does that even mean without context or putting it in something to form a word or phrase, which I can assure you is what people did with these hieroglyphs. But continuing the point, my first name comes from Old Norman and Old French, "Le Roy" and means the King based on that phrase. Proving, as I said, many words retain their some form of their original connotations, thoughts, intentions, or meanings even without getting into the alphabet meanings of the earlier scripts. Etymology shows us the history of a word and is a better way of understanding the origins, meanings, and evolution of a word throughout history.

Even now, no one with my name walks around calling themselves "The King" when they introduce themselves to anyone. No one calls says, "Hey, that's The King over there. Hi The King!" No, that wouldn't make sense. No one even puts in their mind the original meaning of the word and anyone with my name simply says, "My name is Leroy" because we practice communication we can understand with words that have clear meanings in the context that they're used. It's no different for the Hebrew that was used to write the Bible. It was no different with the pictograph/hieroglyphic languages. They were used within a context and should be understood and translated as so.

BroRoyVa79 said:

This doesn't change the fact that the Kabballah is Jewish Mysticism. Mysticism is a known part of Hasidic/Chasidic Judaism. Mysticism by definition is a belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be gained through a intuition, insight, altered states of consciousness, hidden truths, esotericism, direct communication with spirits, meditation, magic practice, and often times rebuffing rigid doctrine and guidelines of the original belief systems they branch off from. It is primarily based on experience but this doesn't mean that those practicing any form of it are not into reason or evidence, but as I said the goal of any rationalities in mysticism is to justify their hidden truths, supposed direct connections to spirituality, etc.

One of the problems with Christian Mystics, for example, in history was that while yes, Christians can and do have what we might call mystical experiences with God (communication directly with Him, the Holy Spirit, visions, dreams, speaking in tongues, etc.) we have a guideline to align these things with. The Bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 14, for example, regarding the usage of speaking in tongues that if done in the midst of people there should be interpretation for the edification of those listening otherwise "Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:19) The point is that the Bible gives us a guideline to measure these experiences whereas the mystics often overemphasized spiritual experience without lining up the truth of these experiences with the Bible. So, in the past (and present) this is the reason some weird traditions that seem far more esoteric and magical found their way in churches.


I'm not looking to derail this topic by getting into eschatology.


Again, many alphabets in the Ancient Near East (Middle East) were based on early hieroglyphics which were developed by using common meanings by utilizing pictographs to communicate information. Many of these alphabets have moved beyond this and many of the words still retain some form of their original meaning or concept. Much of this is the same in Hebrew. Even with the pictographs, some of the alphabets had multiple meanings as I said. What became the Aleph was an Ox Head that meant Ox, strength, leader. You couldn't or can't just randomly assign any definition to the Ox Head without context. So, either way you have to practice proper translation and linguistic understanding to gain the right meaning.

The other problem here is that there are several Middle Eastern or Semitic languages that come from that early hieroglyphic script. I've been severely oversimplifying everything here for the sake of conversation, but many of the languages (and their alphabets) from that area come from what is academically called a Proto-Semetic/Proto-Sinaitic/Proto-Canaanite script. It went on to influence Paleo-Hebrew, Phoenician and South Arabian scripts and even modern alphabets. So, if it's the case that we should incorporate the meanings of these letters based on their ancient meanings into understanding the Bible, then why don't we do that with everything since the early scripts influenced, also some of the current English alphabet (by way of Latin and Greek)?

We don't do that. We don't get into for example, based on the aforementioned early script that the "L" in my first name originally meant "authority" and the "E" in my first name originally meant "Look" and the "R" in my first name originally meant "head" so that means I'm an "Authority-Look-Head." I mean, what does that even mean without context or putting it in something to form a word or phrase, which I can assure you is what people did with these hieroglyphs. But continuing the point, my first name comes from Old Norman and Old French, "Le Roy" and means the King based on that phrase. Proving, as I said, many words retain their some form of their original connotations, thoughts, intentions, or meanings even without getting into the alphabet meanings of the earlier scripts. Etymology shows us the history of a word and is a better way of understanding the origins, meanings, and evolution of a word throughout history.

Even now, no one with my name walks around calling themselves "The King" when they introduce themselves to anyone. No one calls says, "Hey, that's The King over there. Hi The King!" No, that wouldn't make sense. No one even puts in their mind the original meaning of the word and anyone with my name simply says, "My name is Leroy" because we practice communication we can understand with words that have clear meanings in the context that they're used. It's no different for the Hebrew that was used to write the Bible. It was no different with the pictograph/hieroglyphic languages. They were used within a context and should be understood and translated as so.

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The Gnostics were famous for this type of biblical interpretation which is why Iranaeus refuted it.

BroRoyVa79 said:

This doesn't change the fact that the Kabballah is Jewish Mysticism.

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I am not so sure that it "IS" anything. I made it very clear to you that I am doing a study to learn the Hebrew language. So even if the Hasidic conservative rabbi buy into and endorse "mysticism" there is no requirement for me to buy into their beliefs to learn Hebrew from them.

First, we have to distinguish between oral “tradition” and oral “transmission.” Because the Bible contains oral transmission. The Sermon on the Mount is a oral transmission. They are recording the sermon that Jesus gave. We told because of the Holy Spirit they were able to remember all of the words to record them. Because I am pretty sure then did not have tape recorders back then. In fact a tape recorder was new technology when I was a kid and they had real to real tapes. Instead of recording on a record, they were now recording on a tape. Of course this was analog before digital came along. Reminds me of computers before they had a hard drive and we use to record on floppy disks. The hard disk was amazing at the time because it was smaller, more compact, more durable and you could record a lot more information on it.

Sorry I tend to drift off like that to something else. I suppose I should edit it out.

BNR32FAN said:

The Gnostics were famous for this type of biblical interpretation which is why Iranaeus refuted it.

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This is one of the first things they teach is to avoid Gnostics, whatever that is.

Diamond7 said:

This is one of the first things they teach is to avoid Gnostics, whatever that is.

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I would expect that a seminary graduate would know what Gnosticism was. It was probably the largest heresy that plagued Christianity in the first two centuries. You didn’t read Adversus Haereses in Bible college?

BroRoyVa79 said:

I mean, what does that even mean

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You can go to YouTube and see for yourself. Rabbi Trugman is one of my main teachers on this. But be careful I have heard that they promote something called mysticism and we are suppose to avoid buying into that sort of thing.

My bother did his dissertation on a pre school readiness test. My dad use to administer that test to his patients to determine if they were ready to start school or be held back a year. For me the school Supernatant would not be able to pass my pre school test. Even with all the understanding you have. You did not say anything about the tower of babel where language was confused. So that Hebrew is the only pure language. Although Greek is a military language and is very exact. When you command an army you need to give them very exact orders.

Today they are hooked on phonics. They want the word to sound right. With no discussion about the meaning of the letters of the alphabet. Even my mom use to say that anyone one can talk ghetto, or what they call hood today. She said an education person know how to properly use the English language. Her dad was mayor for 22 years so they were always wanting to be on good terms with people to get their vote.

Diamond7 said:

I am not so sure that it "IS" anything. I made it very clear to you that I am doing a study to learn the Hebrew language. So even if the Hasidic conservative rabbi buy into and endorse "mysticism" there is no requirement for me to buy into their beliefs to learn Hebrew from them.

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But you mentioned the Kaballah back in post #196 as if you were adopting teachings from it into your life when you brought up a saying in it about qualifications to be an Elder or to teach at 40 years of age?

Diamond7 said:

First, we have to distinguish between oral “tradition” and oral “transmission.” Because the Bible contains oral transmission. The Sermon on the Mount is a oral transmission. They are recording the sermon that Jesus gave. We told because of the Holy Spirit they were able to remember all of the words to record them. Because I am pretty sure then did not have tape recorders back then. In fact a tape recorder was new technology when I was a kid and they had real to real tapes. Instead of recording on a record, they were now recording on a tape. Of course this was analog before digital came along. Reminds me of computers before they had a hard drive and we use to record on floppy disks. The hard disk was amazing at the time because it was smaller, more compact, more durable and you could record a lot more information on it.

Sorry I tend to drift off like that to something else. I suppose I should edit it out.

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I agree that the disciples who were ordained to write or pass on this knowledge recorded this sermon and many of Jesus' sayings that would inevitably be relevant to find their way in the written Bible.

Diamond7 said:

You can go to YouTube and see for yourself. Rabbi Trugman is one of my main teachers on this. But be careful I have heard that they promote something called mysticism and we are suppose to avoid buying into that sort of thing.

(Moved to this quotation by me because it was relevant to your above statement)

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Yes, you should stay away from Jewish Mysticism outside of maybe learning what they believe so that you might be able to speak with them from knowledge of what they believe in an apologetics type of situation. Yes, Rabbis who practice it are going to argue that its harmless. Just like anyone who practices anything they shouldn't without conviction will try to argue with you that their practicing it is harmless.

Since I pulled this forum up today while at home, I was able to view the Youtube video since they block it at work. I didn't go beyond Aleph because I felt that was enough. Much of what he says in the video is stuff that they've come up with. Aleph = 1000, but also 1???? Aleph = is a paradoxical unity with plurality??? He goes on to explain that this means the Aleph = beginning, cause and effect and tries to connect this to the 0 and 1 language of machines. As someone who has also worked in tech, also went to school for a time to work on computers and do software development, he misunderstands what 0 and 1 in technology does as Rabbi Trugman tries to associate it with "beginnings of all Earthly action and cause and effect" because it's "1" when in reality it's just 0 = off, 1 = on to computers and machines and you can use that to speak what you might call "the most basic computer language" without letters, numbers, etc. that we (humans) understand better in programming language like C, C#, C++, PERL, Java, or insert your programming language here. To any fellow techies reading this, yes I'm greatly oversimplifying and not getting into bits, bytes, etc. of binary code.

Either way, somehow from the above we get into souls and how Aleph = Jews = 1 unified soul? The Aleph also equals how God = 1 and everything He created = 1? None of this is in what we know the letter actually meant in it's hieroglyphic/pictographic time. This is all stuff they've put on the alphabet and as I listened to it I wondered what benefit this would give to any translator and person trying to understand what Genesis or any word utilizing Aleph for that matter meant outside of this esotericism. Sure, for words like Adam who is the first human (or the first of something) in the scripture, something like this might have some interesting relevance.

Diamond7 said:

My bother did his dissertation on a pre school readiness test. My dad use to administer that test to his patients to determine if they were ready to start school or be held back a year. For me the school Supernatant would not be able to pass my pre school test. Even with all the understanding you have. You did not say anything about the tower of babel where language was confused. So that Hebrew is the only pure language. Although Greek is a military language and is very exact. When you command an army you need to give them very exact orders.

Today they are hooked on phonics. They want the word to sound right. With no discussion about the meaning of the letters of the alphabet. Even my mom use to say that anyone one can talk ghetto, or what they call hood today. She said an education person know how to properly use the English language. Her dad was mayor for 22 years so they were always wanting to be on good terms with people to get their vote.

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I'll say this, anyone who speaks a particular language and was raised to speak that language and taught how great that language is will come up with all kinds of platitudes about said language. Every language has its pros and cons and favorite linguists who will praise it and linguist who will hate working with it, etc. I've already said before that I don't believe Hebrew was the original Pre-Flood Language. Genesis 11:1-9 tells us that the whole world spoke the Pre-Flood language by way of Noah and his family and God destroyed that language. Since this is the same language Adam likely spoke while speaking to God in the Garden of Eden, then if you want to call a language the purest language or the most perfect language, that would be it. The version of the Hebrew language we have that evolved from older versions was the language spoken by the descendants of Abraham when Moses started penning the Bible.

Regarding your statements about language in general. Today you need words to sound right for others to properly understand you. As someone who is soft spoken despite my size, I've had to make sure people can hear what I'm saying all my life. As someone who also grew up in the "hood" and spoke "ghetto" as I transitioned from youth to adulthood and from that mindset to a more productive one, I also had to ensure people of all colors and creeds could properly understand me to get things done whether I continued to speak my cultural language with slang, phrases, etc. deemed appropriate for the setting that I was in or didn't. Outside of certain situations, I no longer speak that way because street slang, etc. rapidly changes with each generation. Street slang spoken when you were a teenager changed by the time you became an adult and is definitely not spoken now.

No one. Absolutely No one today outside of people who get into that stuff will care about what letters supposedly mean because it has no bearing on meaning that is used to communicate information to each other in dialogue, writing, etc. It's simply esotericism that some people indulge in. As I said above, I could only conclude that the meaning of Aleph according to Rabbi Trugman would only have some benefit with words in the Bible that have to do with the first of things like Adam, Beginning, God, etc. And this benefit would mostly be, "Oh, that's interesting, the letter Aleph that means "beginnings" is in this word that already means one of its kind, beginning, the first of this thing or that thing." But once more, as I've already said, this becomes moot when you just focus on what the word actually means in its context and move on.

BroRoyVa79 said:

But you mentioned the Kaballah back in post #196 as if you were adopting teachings from it into your life

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That is absurd, do you just make this up as you go along or do you have a reading comprehension problem. I made is very very clear that I study the Hebrew language from the Hasidic (that are conservatives) so that I can better understand the Hebrew Bible that we got from them. I have said this over and over again in may post but maybe I did not make it clear for you.

BNR32FAN said:

And tree rings aren’t caused by years either they’re caused by climate change and the amount of rainfall. Tress can grow multiple rings per year due to droughts or freezes that are spread months apart. What causes tree rings is growth spurts followed by growth halts. For example droughts in the summertime can cause a growth halt then it can have another growth halt in the winter time creating two rings in one year or you can have an early freeze like in October then moderate temperatures until March and have another freeze and that will also cause two growth halts in one year. And if you have a freeze in October then moderate weather and another freeze in March then moderate weather then a drought in summer that can cause three rings in one year. Not that it really matters because the oldest tree ever found is still only 4900 years old. Your welcome.

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It is extremely unfortunate that some teenagers and adults believe such absolutely false statements as these! Tree rings are NOT caused by climate change and the amount of rainfall. They are caused by annual seasonal changes. In North America, for example, early spring weather brings about rapid new, less dense growth in the meristematic tissues of trees. Later in the growing season, the rate of growth in the meristematic tissues slows and the new cells are more dense producing an annual growth ring Very rarely, the early spring can be very dry and the summer very wet and prolonged producing two growth rings. Also very rarely, both the spring and the summer and can be very dry and cold producing no discernable growth rings.

Furthermore, the study of growth rings in trees is the science of dendrochronology and the research is not performed by the baboons in the San Diego Zoo but by highly skilled technicians with many years of experience working in specialized laboratories under the guidance of biologists specializing in dendrochronology.

Dendrochronological and climatological studies in the White Mountains of California at elevations between 10,000 and 11,000 feet have conclusively proven that the climate there has not changed substantially during the past 8,900 years and that the Pinus longaeva trees growing in that area have been growing there without interruption from a flood or other catastrophic event during that entire time.

In 1964, a Pinus longaeva named Prometheus was cut down due to a blunder and it was discovered that the tree was 4,950 years old when it was cut down. Therefore this tree began growing there in about 2,986 B.C. from a seed from a tree that was already growing there and old enough to produce viable seeds. According to Usher’s literal interpretation of Old Testament chronology, Noah and his family entered into the Ark 2,349 B.C. and in the same year it began to rain. If this is true (and of course it is not), Prometheus had already been growing for about 637 years (from a seed from a tree that was already growing there and old enough to produce viable seeds) when the flood occurred.

Therefore we know for an absolute and incontrovertible fact several things:

The White Mountains of California are at least 8,900 years old.

At the time the flood is said to have occurred, a tree had been growing in the White Mountains at an elevation above 10,000 feet for about 637 years.

This tree was still intact in 1964 and for 4,950 years it had been growing without experiencing any substantial changes in the climate.

This tree grew from a seed from another tree of the same kind that was already old enough to produce a viable seed.

Other trees of the same kind had been growing in the same area for the past 8,900 years without experiencing any substantial changes in the climate.

Not only is the earth at least 8,900 years old, but so is the topography in the White Mountains.

The climate in the White Mountains has not changed substantially in the past 8,900 years.

PrincetonGuy said:

Noah and his family entered into the Ark 2,349 B.C. and in the same year it began to rain. If this is true

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Are you calling God a liar? Noah's story is very true in the original Hebrew language. It is the translation and interpretation that is not true. I am a carpenter and a draftsman and I can assure you that true does exist. Noah's flood is a shadow, type and pattern of the world wide flood that took place at the time of Pangea. Some like to use the word paradigm which is a pattern. Again as a carpenter a pattern is the origional and everything is a copy of the pattern but they are never precisely identical. But the pattern sets the standard. Just like science tells us that there are many Edens in the world. Of course what makes Eden in the Bible so special is that this was the beginning of civilization. Because man needs food to eat and if man is to survive the whole ecosystem he is a part of needs to survive. It is pretty amazing that Noah was able to do just that.

PrincetonGuy said:

The climate in the White Mountains has not changed substantially in the past 8,900 years.

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The mountains were created 200 million years ago when continental drift began.

Mountains are often formed through the process of plate tectonics, which is closely related to continental drift.

This is why they find sea shells at the top of mountains. Or high above sea level.

BroRoyVa79 said:

Since this is the same language Adam likely spoke while speaking to God in the Garden of Eden, then if you want to call a language the purest language or the most perfect language, that would be it.

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The Rabbi teach that God used the language of the Bible to create the world. That is why we are able to understand and talk about the work God has done and is doing in the world and in our lives. Hebrew letters have a numeric value. Just like the Greeks used letters to create numbers.

A simple example of Gematria is the following. The Hebrew word for father, ab, is composed of the first two letters of the language's alphabet. The numeric value for each letter, 1 + 2, equals 3. The two letters in the word for mother, em, adds to 41 (1 + 40). Added together, both words equal 44. The sum of the letters in the Hebrew word for child (yaelaed) is also 44, showing that it takes the "sum" of a mother and father to create a child. Of course we could offer up an infinite number of examples like this.

BroRoyVa79 said:

No one. Absolutely No one today outside of people who get into that stuff will care about what letters supposedly mean

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The Video we are talking about has 250,000 views. So that alone is 250,000 people you do not seem to account for. Things will change during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. As I said this will be required for a child to understand the language before they can start school. Biden has already endorsed a pre school program. The Biden administration has just secured 1.9 billion dollars to invest in preschool. “High-quality, early learning opportunities are proven bridges to later academic success—and every child deserves access,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona. I wish I had finished my classes at the Bible College because then I would have an accredited certified as an education administrator.

Like you though, my intent was to learn how to better communicate with people. We studied Jesus and how He would teach.






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Diamond7 said:

That is absurd, do you just make this up as you go along or do you have a reading comprehension problem. I made is very very clear that I study the Hebrew language from the Hasidic (that are conservatives) so that I can better understand the Hebrew Bible that we got from them. I have said this over and over again in may post but maybe I did not make it clear for you.

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Despite our disagreements, I have tried my best to be very respectful toward you while also calling you out on certain things. It's never my intention to misrepresent you or put words in your mouth. Which is why I linked the post in question for your own reference to recall your own words. With that in said, the quote in context is below, with my emphasis on the part I brought up about the Kabballah and interpreted it as you applying this specific teaching to your life:

Diamond7 said:

I took many years and looked at a lot of evidence before I came to the conclusion I have now. We do not really enter in until we have studied the Bible for at least 40 years. I do not think anyone is qualified to even be an elder in the church until they have been a Christian for 40 years. They talk about this in Kabballah also. They say 40 years of age but nothing special happened to me when I was 40. It was not until I had been a Christian for 40 years that I entered into a deeper level of understanding. Now I am 72 and I really should not be alive. There is a reason why God is keeping me alive and I need to be faithful to Him and His calling on me and my life. To deliver the message He wants me to deliver. God watches over every word I speak and I am accountable to Him. So I really don't much care what people think about it. We are here to bring praise, honor and glory to God and to serve Him at all times in all ways.

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So, my question when you claim that you are only studying the Hebrew language from the Hasidic/Chasidic was why did you bring up a Kabballah saying about being qualified to be an Elder at a certain age and say nothing special happened to you at 40? It very much seems like in this statement that you were or are applying this to life.

Diamond7 said:

The Rabbi teach that God used the language of the Bible to create the world. That is why we are able to understand and talk about the work God has done and is doing in the world and in our lives. Hebrew letters have a numeric value. Just like the Greeks used letters to create numbers.

A simple example of Gematria is the following. The Hebrew word for father, ab, is composed of the first two letters of the language's alphabet. The numeric value for each letter, 1 + 2, equals 3. The two letters in the word for mother, em, adds to 41 (1 + 40). Added together, both words equal 44. The sum of the letters in the Hebrew word for child (yaelaed) is also 44, showing that it takes the "sum" of a mother and father to create a child. Of course we could offer up an infinite number of examples like this.

View attachment 344602

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The Rabbis can teach that God used the language of the Bible to create the world but that doesn't make that true. Again, you seem to just simply ignore Genesis 11, which states that the language used at that time is gone. Either way, we ultimately don't really know what language God spoke creation into existence outside of what language was used to pen Genesis, which is Hebrew. By the way, the Bible, even Old Testament, is not entirely written in Hebrew and Hebrew is not as pure a language as you think. As I've shown, it came from a pictographic language that influenced several different Middle Eastern languages of that time. Also, the Bible is not solely written in Hebrew, some areas of Daniel, Jeremiah, and Ezra were written in Aramaic.

I'm also familiar with Gematria already. I have no problems with letters having numerical equivalents. Many alphabets in different languages do. But it doesn't make sense for one letter, the Alpeh, to equal 1 and 1000 at the same time.

Diamond7 said:

The Video we are talking about has 250,000 views. So that alone is 250,000 people you do not seem to account for. Things will change during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. As I said this will be required for a child to understand the language before they can start school. Biden has already endorsed a pre school program. The Biden administration has just secured 1.9 billion dollars to invest in preschool. “High-quality, early learning opportunities are proven bridges to later academic success—and every child deserves access,” said U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona. I wish I had finished my classes at the Bible College because then I would have an accredited certified as an education administrator.

Like you though, my intent was to learn how to better communicate with people. We studied Jesus and how He would teach.






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ALEF - Secrets of the Hebrew Letters​

250K views13 years ago

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You don't know if any of those 250K+ views were people simply doing what I was doing, watching the video to see what he would say and walking away not convinced or thinking that this was simply meanings that they arbitrarily added to the alphabet. You have no idea if 250k+ people are walking around convinced that his teachings about Hebrew alphabets are true and are advocating that and incorporating that into their beliefs and studies.

I'm not a fan of Biden and like I said with eschatology, I have no intention to derail this topic with politics, either.

BroRoyVa79 said:

With that in said, the quote in context is below,

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We can go over this as many times as you want and the answer is always going to be the same. We have to distinguish between oral “tradition” and oral “transmission.” You need to do a study on how much the oral tradition is a part of our written Hebrew Bible.

In traditional Jewish practice, certain portions of the Hebrew Bible, particularly the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures), are often chanted or sung during synagogue services. This chanting is known as "Trop" (or "Cantillation" in English) and involves the use of specific musical motifs, melodies, and rhythms that are passed down through generations.

The Trop serves several purposes:

1. Preservation of Tradition: The melodies used for chanting the Torah portions have been preserved and passed down through generations, contributing to the continuity of Jewish tradition and practice.
2. Enhancing Focus and Understanding: Chanting the biblical text with musical intonations can help focus attention and enhance the understanding of the text's meaning. The melodic patterns can emphasize key words or phrases and convey nuances of emotion or emphasis.
3. Spiritual Experience: The chanting of sacred texts in a melodic manner can create a deeply spiritual experience for both the reader and the listeners, fostering a sense of reverence and connection to the divine.

The specific melodies and Trop patterns used vary among different Jewish communities and traditions. Each Hebrew word has its own designated Trop symbol, indicating the musical motif to be used. Skilled Torah readers (Ba'alei Kriah) are trained to chant the text according to these musical notations, ensuring the proper rendition of the sacred scripture during synagogue services.


Every time someone asks me a question then I would have to write a book to answer their question. But at most they want a magazine article. So I need for them to ask questions so I know what they are interested in and then I can give them more information. If we understand something we can express it in simple terms that our grandmother can understand. That was the case with E=MC2

Kabbalah is a quick buzz word, but I already explained to you that I am talking about the Hasidic and conservative Judaism.


In Kabbalah, the mystical branch of Judaism, the age of 40 is often associated with spiritual transformation and attainment of wisdom. This belief draws from various interpretations of biblical and mystical texts.

One significant reference is the story of Moses, who, according to tradition, spent 40 years in Egypt, 40 years in Midian, and 40 years leading the Israelites through the wilderness. His encounter with God at the burning bush, where he was called to lead the Israelites out of Egypt, occurred when he was 80 years old. The period of 40 years in the wilderness is seen as a time of spiritual preparation and growth for both Moses and the Israelites.

In Kabbalistic numerology, the number 40 is considered significant because it represents a period of transition, purification, and preparation for a higher spiritual purpose. It is believed that individuals who reach the age of 40 may undergo a profound inner transformation and attain a deeper understanding of spiritual truths.

Additionally, the number 40 is associated with the concept of "maturity" in Jewish tradition, signifying a stage of life characterized by wisdom, experience, and spiritual insight. This idea is reflected in various teachings and mystical interpretations within Kabbalah regarding the significance of reaching the age of 40.

Diamond7 said:

We can go over this as many times as you want and the answer is always going to be the same. We have to distinguish between oral “tradition” and oral “transmission.” You need to do a study on how much the oral tradition is a part of our written Hebrew Bible.

In traditional Jewish practice, certain portions of the Hebrew Bible, particularly the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures), are often chanted or sung during synagogue services. This chanting is known as "Trop" (or "Cantillation" in English) and involves the use of specific musical motifs, melodies, and rhythms that are passed down through generations.

The Trop serves several purposes:

1. Preservation of Tradition: The melodies used for chanting the Torah portions have been preserved and passed down through generations, contributing to the continuity of Jewish tradition and practice.
2. Enhancing Focus and Understanding: Chanting the biblical text with musical intonations can help focus attention and enhance the understanding of the text's meaning. The melodic patterns can emphasize key words or phrases and convey nuances of emotion or emphasis.
3. Spiritual Experience: The chanting of sacred texts in a melodic manner can create a deeply spiritual experience for both the reader and the listeners, fostering a sense of reverence and connection to the divine.

The specific melodies and Trop patterns used vary among different Jewish communities and traditions. Each Hebrew word has its own designated Trop symbol, indicating the musical motif to be used. Skilled Torah readers (Ba'alei Kriah) are trained to chant the text according to these musical notations, ensuring the proper rendition of the sacred scripture during synagogue services.

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Diamond, while all of this above is interesting, it has little if nothing to do with the claim you seemed to have taken offense to. Which was that you seemed, let me re-emphasize that, seemed to be adopting some teachings of the Kabballah into your life. Or, I'll amend this here, you seemed to or are, at the very least giving the teachings some form of merit. You implied that I was reading it wrong or misrepresenting you and I quoted where I read the implication in one of your previous posts.

Diamond7 said:

Every time someone asks me a question then I would have to write a book to answer their question. But at most they want a magazine article. So I need for them to ask questions so I know what they are interested in and then I can give them more information. If we understand something we can express it in simple terms that our grandmother can understand. That was the case with E=MC2

Kabbalah is a quick buzz word, but I already explained to you that I am talking about the Hasidic and conservative Judaism.


In Kabbalah, the mystical branch of Judaism, the age of 40 is often associated with spiritual transformation and attainment of wisdom. This belief draws from various interpretations of biblical and mystical texts.

One significant reference is the story of Moses, who, according to tradition, spent 40 years in Egypt, 40 years in Midian, and 40 years leading the Israelites through the wilderness. His encounter with God at the burning bush, where he was called to lead the Israelites out of Egypt, occurred when he was 80 years old. The period of 40 years in the wilderness is seen as a time of spiritual preparation and growth for both Moses and the Israelites.

In Kabbalistic numerology, the number 40 is considered significant because it represents a period of transition, purification, and preparation for a higher spiritual purpose. It is believed that individuals who reach the age of 40 may undergo a profound inner transformation and attain a deeper understanding of spiritual truths.

Additionally, the number 40 is associated with the concept of "maturity" in Jewish tradition, signifying a stage of life characterized by wisdom, experience, and spiritual insight. This idea is reflected in various teachings and mystical interpretations within Kabbalah regarding the significance of reaching the age of 40.

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And this write up here seems to prove me right.

BroRoyVa79 said:

seemed to be adopting some teachings of the Kabballah into your life.

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We can go over this as many times as you want to go over it until you finally understand what I am saying. First of all I am learning Hebrew from the Hasidic to better understand the Hebrew Bible. The fact that the Hasidic have different beliefs than we do does not mean that we can not learn Hebrew from them. I think they have a lot to offer to help help us understand the Bible we got from them.

The Bible we got from them. The Bible we got from them. The Bible we got from them. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that we got our Bible from them. I understand you want to ignore their teaching outside of the Bible but that does not change the fact that we received our bible from them.

If you do not have any regard for conservative Jewish people then why do you read the Hebrew Bible that we get from them? You simply do not recognize how much the oral tradition is incorporated into the Hebrew Bible.

The process of modifying the Torah to give us the written Bible as we know it today involves several stages of transmission, preservation, interpretation, and compilation. Here's a broad overview:

1. Oral Tradition: Initially, the teachings and narratives of the Torah were transmitted orally from generation to generation.BThe Israelites had a strong oral tradition, with skilled scribes and teachers responsible for memorizing and passing down the sacred texts.
2. Writing Down: Over time, portions of the Torah were gradually committed to writing. This process likely began during the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE) when there was a heightened need to preserve Jewish identity and religious heritage. Scribes meticulously copied and preserved the sacred texts.
3. Editing and Compilation: The Torah underwent periods of editing and compilation by scribes, scholars, and religious leaders. This included organizing the texts into the familiar structure of the five books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) and possibly incorporating additional material or editorial changes to adapt the text to the needs of the community.
4. Translation: As Jewish communities spread throughout different regions, translations of the Torah were made into various languages, including Aramaic, Greek, and eventually Latin and other languages. These translations helped to make the Torah accessible to a wider audience and facilitated its dissemination.
5. Interpretation and Commentary: Jewish scholars and rabbis produced extensive commentaries and interpretations of the Torah, known as Midrash and Talmud, which provided insights into the meaning, application, and significance of the text. These commentaries became an integral part of Jewish study and tradition.
6. Transmission and Preservation: Throughout history, Jewish communities meticulously preserved and transmitted the Torah through manuscript copying, synagogue readings, educational institutions, and religious ceremonies. The Masoretes, Jewish scribes from the 7th to 10th centuries CE, played a crucial role in standardizing the text and ensuring its accuracy through meticulous copying techniques and textual annotations.
7. Printing and Distribution: The invention of the printing press in the 15th century facilitated the mass production of Torah scrolls, manuscripts, and later printed editions. This allowed for greater accessibility and dissemination of the Torah among Jewish communities and beyond.

Overall, the Torah evolved from an oral tradition into a written text through a complex process of transmission, interpretation, and compilation, guided by the efforts of scribes, scholars, and religious leaders over centuries of Jewish history.

PrincetonGuy said:

It is extremely unfortunate that some teenagers and adults believe such absolutely false statements as these! Tree rings are NOT caused by climate change and the amount of rainfall. They are caused by annual seasonal changes. In North America, for example, early spring weather brings about rapid new, less dense growth in the meristematic tissues of trees. Later in the growing season, the rate of growth in the meristematic tissues slows and the new cells are more dense producing an annual growth ring Very rarely, the early spring can be very dry and the summer very wet and prolonged producing two growth rings. Also very rarely, both the spring and the summer and can be very dry and cold producing no discernable growth rings.

Furthermore, the study of growth rings in trees is the science of dendrochronology and the research is not performed by the baboons in the San Diego Zoo but by highly skilled technicians with many years of experience working in specialized laboratories under the guidance of biologists specializing in dendrochronology.

Dendrochronological and climatological studies in the White Mountains of California at elevations between 10,000 and 11,000 feet have conclusively proven that the climate there has not changed substantially during the past 8,900 years and that the Pinus longaeva trees growing in that area have been growing there without interruption from a flood or other catastrophic event during that entire time.

In 1964, a Pinus longaeva named Prometheus was cut down due to a blunder and it was discovered that the tree was 4,950 years old when it was cut down. Therefore this tree began growing there in about 2,986 B.C. from a seed from a tree that was already growing there and old enough to produce viable seeds. According to Usher’s literal interpretation of Old Testament chronology, Noah and his family entered into the Ark 2,349 B.C. and in the same year it began to rain. If this is true (and of course it is not), Prometheus had already been growing for about 637 years (from a seed from a tree that was already growing there and old enough to produce viable seeds) when the flood occurred.

Therefore we know for an absolute and incontrovertible fact several things:

The White Mountains of California are at least 8,900 years old.

At the time the flood is said to have occurred, a tree had been growing in the White Mountains at an elevation above 10,000 feet for about 637 years.

This tree was still intact in 1964 and for 4,950 years it had been growing without experiencing any substantial changes in the climate.

This tree grew from a seed from another tree of the same kind that was already old enough to produce a viable seed.

Other trees of the same kind had been growing in the same area for the past 8,900 years without experiencing any substantial changes in the climate.

Not only is the earth at least 8,900 years old, but so is the topography in the White Mountains.

The climate in the White Mountains has not changed substantially in the past 8,900 years.

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So your denying the fact that trees can grow several rings per year.

Diamond7 said:

We can go over this as many times as you want to go over it until you finally understand what I am saying. First of all I am learning Hebrew from the Hasidic to better understand the Hebrew Bible. The fact that the Hasidic have different beliefs than we do does not mean that we can not learn Hebrew from them. I think they have a lot to offer to help help us understand the Bible we got from them.

The Bible we got from them. The Bible we got from them. The Bible we got from them. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that we got our Bible from them. I understand you want to ignore their teaching outside of the Bible but that does not change the fact that we received our bible from them.

If you do not have any regard for conservative Jewish people then why do you read the Hebrew Bible that we get from them? You simply do not recognize how much the oral tradition is incorporated into the Hebrew Bible.

The process of modifying the Torah to give us the written Bible as we know it today involves several stages of transmission, preservation, interpretation, and compilation. Here's a broad overview:

1. Oral Tradition: Initially, the teachings and narratives of the Torah were transmitted orally from generation to generation.BThe Israelites had a strong oral tradition, with skilled scribes and teachers responsible for memorizing and passing down the sacred texts.
2. Writing Down: Over time, portions of the Torah were gradually committed to writing. This process likely began during the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE) when there was a heightened need to preserve Jewish identity and religious heritage. Scribes meticulously copied and preserved the sacred texts.
3. Editing and Compilation: The Torah underwent periods of editing and compilation by scribes, scholars, and religious leaders. This included organizing the texts into the familiar structure of the five books (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) and possibly incorporating additional material or editorial changes to adapt the text to the needs of the community.
4. Translation: As Jewish communities spread throughout different regions, translations of the Torah were made into various languages, including Aramaic, Greek, and eventually Latin and other languages. These translations helped to make the Torah accessible to a wider audience and facilitated its dissemination.
5. Interpretation and Commentary: Jewish scholars and rabbis produced extensive commentaries and interpretations of the Torah, known as Midrash and Talmud, which provided insights into the meaning, application, and significance of the text. These commentaries became an integral part of Jewish study and tradition.
6. Transmission and Preservation: Throughout history, Jewish communities meticulously preserved and transmitted the Torah through manuscript copying, synagogue readings, educational institutions, and religious ceremonies. The Masoretes, Jewish scribes from the 7th to 10th centuries CE, played a crucial role in standardizing the text and ensuring its accuracy through meticulous copying techniques and textual annotations.
7. Printing and Distribution: The invention of the printing press in the 15th century facilitated the mass production of Torah scrolls, manuscripts, and later printed editions. This allowed for greater accessibility and dissemination of the Torah among Jewish communities and beyond.

Overall, the Torah evolved from an oral tradition into a written text through a complex process of transmission, interpretation, and compilation, guided by the efforts of scribes, scholars, and religious leaders over centuries of Jewish history.

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I'm not sure why, but it seems you keep missing the main point and keep going into all of this other stuff that I'm already familiar with and never denied and again, is not the point. You bring up teachings of the Kabballah and when I cask you about it and call you on it you flip back to you're just learning the Hebrew language from Hasidic Rabbis.

Conservatism is different in each country. Just because Hasidic/Chasidic Jews are "conservative" in Israel, etc. does not really mean anything in relation to what the Kabballah is and I have told you what it is and what Mysticism is from a known current and historical definition. Even outside of that, it is not Biblical canon. There is no Kabballah in the Bible. While there may be some of the Bible in the Kabballah. Kabballah closely resembles Gnostic beliefs. You obviously want to listen to the Rabbis "Because we got the Bible from them" (not really, we got it from Ancient Jews). Furthermore, any Orthodox Jewish teaching does deny the deity of Christ.

Overall, you just seem to be elevating Jewish Rabbis to this sort of infallible position with "the Bible we got from them" type of statements and that I'm somehow ignoring that. No, I'm unimpressed with man's musings about anything that doesn't align with scripture. I believe I've made that clear. Kabballah doesn't align with scripture outside of seeing the OT inspirational just like other Orthodox Jewish beliefs see OT as inspirational but as I said reject the NT.

At this point, I'm going to stop repeating myself and move on.

Edited to add: All you really had to do to clear this up would be to say something along the lines of, "I use Kabballah teachings as sort of a commentary or insight into what they believe and see where it may match up with the Bible." I'd still caution and raise an issue, but it's entirely different than you paraphrasing a teaching or belief from it as if you thought it was a truth to apply.