Time for Peace Talks in Switzerland?

SoldierOfTheKing said:

The major point of the peace talks would be how to define “Ukraine”. As long as Kiev insists that it means pre-2014 borders, there won’t be peace, because they’re chasing an old order that simply doesn’t exist anymore.

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Are you claiming that invasion and occupation is a valid path to changing borders? If it isn't then the only borders that are valid are the pre-2014 borders.

SoldierOfTheKing said:

Even if the Russian did withdraw, the Ukrainian army would face a rifle behind every blade of grass if it tried to retake those territories. That is not idle speculation; that is what actually happened in Donbas after the Euromaiden coup. What is needed for an end to the war is rational Ukrainian leadership, and that requires rational behavior on part of the Western powers that prop up the Ukrainian government.

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You think Ukraine that needs to get realistic about things, not Russia?

Love365 said:

Time for the United States and Russia to have peace talks in Switzerland?

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Desk trauma said:

Those talks would need to be between Ukraine and Russia.

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7thKeeper said:

Meh, don't bother asking. You'll just receive a list of unrelated questions back about Russia being allowed to do this or that. Maybe even something Eurovision related.

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So, @Love365 : Are you going to answer the question? Or is 7thKeeper correct?

7thKeeper said:

Meh, don't bother asking. You'll just receive a list of unrelated questions back about Russia being allowed to do this or that. Maybe even something Eurovision related.

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Nonsense. It'll be about Epcot.

Love365 said:

When did that happen?

In writing?

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Why would it matter? Russia's agreement is not needed.

Love365 said:

When did that happen?

In writing?

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1997. Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation.

While a lot of the sections mainly discuss establishing organisations and mechanisms for NATO and Russia to have improved communications, there are a few parts regarding this. The one quoted below and there's also a part that talks about the changing nature of NATO, though I don't remember the exact language there or the term used, though it appeared to me be preparatory language for the invitations to join NATO sent two months later.

To achieve the aims of this Act, NATO and Russia will base their relations on a shared commitment to the following principles:

(Snip, removed bullet points from here)

• respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents;

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There's also this part regarding the mechanisms of the Council established with the act.

Provisions of this Act do not provide NATO or Russia, in any way, with a right of veto over the actions of the other nor do they infringe upon or restrict the rights of NATO or Russia to independent decision-making and action. They cannot be used as a means to disadvantage the interests of other states.

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Love365 said:

Some documents are old and out of date.

If you want relations with Russia to stay up to date,
I would suggest giving Russia seats in European Parliament,
the Council of Europe, and the European Political Community.

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Oooh! If we get to decide which documents are out of date why don't we just get rid of the Russian constitution and give all that land to Ukraine instead? Solves all the problems.

Love365 said:

For one thing there are more members of NATO than there were in 1997.

Russia could say it only applies to countries that joined NATO before 1997.

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The first is irrelevant.

The second doesn't matter. Unless Russia wants to sit down and renegotiate the agreement, then it's bound to abide by it. Russia signed onto the agreement knowing that there were active negotiations about new member states joining NATO - at that time Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic were all in the process of NATO accession.

EDIT: Quoting from the US State Department at the time:

"The Act has no impact on NATO enlargement. That process is proceeding on schedule; NATO leaders at the Madrid summit in July will extend invitations to the first countries to begin accession talks. Those countries admitted will have the full rights and responsibilities of Alliance membership, and the door to membership will remain open to all emerging European democracies."

Arcangl86 said:

Oooh! If we get to decide which documents are out of date why don't we just get rid of the Russian constitution and give all that land to Ukraine instead? Solves all the problems.

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There are a ring of Russian oblasts on the Ukrainian border that have a historical connection to Ukraine. We could start there...

Hans Blaster said:

Are you claiming that invasion and occupation is a valid path to changing borders?

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In 5000 years of recorded history, it’s the rule, not the exception. Most of current borders of the world were determined by the outcomes of wars.

Hans Blaster said:

If it isn't then the only borders that are valid are the pre-2014 borders.

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For the past decade, they’ve existed only on paper, and are not restorable, simply because too much has changed. That the Ukrainian government can’t understand that speaks volumes about their grasp of reality.

SoldierOfTheKing said:

In 5000 years of recorded history, it’s the rule, not the exception. Most of current borders of the world were determined by the outcomes of wars.

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And international law has prohibited wars of conquest since WW2.

SoldierOfTheKing said:

For the past decade, they’ve existed only on paper, and are not restorable, simply because too much has changed. That the Ukrainian government can’t understand that speaks volumes about their grasp of reality.

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Occupation is reversible.

Hans Blaster said:

There are a ring of Russian oblasts on the Ukrainian border that have a historical connection to Ukraine. We could start there...

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And I'm sure the Mongols and Chinese have a few things to say about who certain parts of Russia should historically belong to.

Love365 said:

Some documents are old and out of date.

If you want relations with Russia to stay up to date,
I would suggest giving Russia seats in European Parliament,
the Council of Europe, and the European Political Community.

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Ah, and we go back to those tired old posts of yours.
Russia has agreed that nations are free to join NATO. Deal with it.

Love365 said:

Russia could say it only applies to countries that joined NATO before 1997.

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How does this nonsensical answer work? Russia could say that it only applies to countries that joined before 1997?
They agree that nations are allowed to join NATO (with no language indicating a cut off point), but this is somehow only applicable to nations already in NATO? Who then wouldn't be joining NATO, since they are already in it. This is utterly nonsensical.

7thKeeper said:

And I'm sure the Mongols and Chinese have a few things to say about who certain parts of Russia should historically belong to.

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Territorial revanchism is a terrible road to travel. It is why the conquest of territory by war was determined to be a violation of the rules of war after WW2. (It has been broken, to be clear, but the international order's rejection of the states that do it is relatively strong.)

Love365 said:

Did France, Germany, or the United States ever ask
Russia if they wanted to join the European Union?

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Why would the United States have anything to do with Russia joining or not joining the EU? Nvm that Russia has said MULTIPLE times that it has no interest in joining the EU.

Love365 said:

Did France, Germany, or the United States ever ask
Russia if they wanted to join the European Union?

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Did Russia agree that nations are free to join NATO?
Well I'll do one better and answer that. Yes they did.