Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

HatGuy said:
Thanks Jason for these videos.

I watched two about defeating addictive sins, and I quite enjoyed them.

What I particularly enjoyed was how he is emphasizing that we must truly, really, believe the Word.

These two aspects of (1) the power of Jesus's Word and 2) faith in that Word (it is a word of faith we preach) is something I believe God is showing me right now.

For after all, the Word is living and active because the Spirit works through it, if we walk in faith in Christ and all He says.

Based on these two videos, I'm not sure if he and you would exactly teach the same thing, but I'll need to watch some others to see. I also read some of his articles on sinless perfection.

Based on what Allan said in his videos, he has stated that there is "Initial Salvation" (Which is spoken about in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5, etc.). He makes a statement like, "when you first got saved.", etc. This is obviously thru repentance of our sins and in believing in Jesus as our Savior in that He died and was risen again 3 days later on our behalf. He believes this because he states on his website.

"Yes repentance is a part of the message (Luke 24:46-47, Mark 1:15)."

"So, what’s in the Gospel according to the Bible? The part of the Gospel message we do hear today is that Christ died for our sins, He rose again on the third day, and was seen by many (1 Corinthians 15:3-5) Praise God. However, that’s not a complete Gospel. What else is in the Gospel according to the Bible? According to the Gospel, salvation is through the sanctification by the Spirit, and belief in the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. NKJV

If we hear the Gospel like it was meant to be proclaimed, we will hear that we’ve must be sanctified by the Spirit and believe the truth, because notice that the Gospel itself “calls us to this” according to verse 14 above."

~ Alan Ballou.

Who will inherit the Kingdom of God | HowToStopSinning.com

HatGuy said:
Here's something I want to say. It's been my experience that insisting that sin results in a loss of salvation only adds to the problem, in particular when it comes to addictive sins.

Sin is separation from God:

Genesis 2:17

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die."

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

Matthew 5:28-30

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matthew 6:15

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"

Matthew 12:36-37

36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Matthew 12:41

"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; ..."

Jonah 3:6-10

6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Luke 13:3

I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.

John 3:20

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

1 John 1:6-7

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 2:4

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Important Note: Jesus is the Truth (See John 14:6, and Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life. See 1 John 5:12).

1 John 3:15

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Romans 11:22

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off."

Galatians 5:19-21

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Hebrews 10:26

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Hebrews 12:14

"Follow ... holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord"

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

HatGuy said:
This is because it seems to erode faith and trust in Christ, when it is faith and trust in Christ that is necessary to defeat the sin in the first place, as it has to be by his Spirit. It just never seems to solve the problem: tell a Christian that their sin will send them to hell, and watch them try everything to stop it in their own strength, or give up on the faith eventually.

Most do not obey because narrow is the way the life that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. There are plenty of real world examples of people reforming over their sins. Even unbelievers can overcome their addiction to alcohol with specific programs with enough time. But with Jesus, people have overcome their addiction alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex, violence, etc. overnight. Yes, sometimes it takes time for some believers to overcome certain sins with Jesus's help. But the point is that Jesus changes lives for the better and not for the worse.

Here is another example: What do you think would happen if there was no more speed limit on the highways here in the US? What do you think will happen? More people will speed and the number of car accidents will begin to rise. What keeps many (not all) people in line? The punishment. They can get fined and or have their license suspended. Cannot a person not touch alcohol because they seen their loved one destroy their lives with it? Could they not associate lots of pain with that particular sin? I would say that such a truth is very real and effective in people in not committing particular sins or things that are wrong. People have not associated enough pain with the particular sin that they are committing because they think sin is not all that big of a deal. But the Bible teaches that there are dire consequences for one's soul in the after life if they commit certain serious sins (like murder, adultery, theft, lying, coveting, and idolatry) with no repentance.

HatGuy said:
Sin also erodes faith. That is why it is so dangerous.

While it is true that sin can erode faith, it does negate the truth that sin is separation from God. Remember, when Adam sinned, he died spiritually that day. His eyes opened to his own nakedness. David confessed his sins to God in order to get cleansed of his sins (Psalms 51). The Bible says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9).

"...Whosoever confesses and forsakes them [i.e. sin] shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13)

HatGuy said:
So to say that a guy can sin as much as he wants and remain saved forever is perhaps not a good idea either.

But is that not what it means when a person says that sin is not separation from God? If that is all a preacher says to a person and they do not explain themselves more in detail, then they could the impression that they have a license to sin (Because no sin truly puts them in any real danger in the after life).

HatGuy said:
However, only if you are counselling them with regards to faith: I.e. you tell them that the sin will shipwreck their faith, and then they are lost as a result (not of the sin, but due to a loss of faith).

The Bible says anything that is not of faith is sin. Sinning is anti-faith. So when a person sins, they are going against the faith and God. In fact, all sin is ultimately done against God. It is rebellion against God. That is why sin is so serious. Sin is not to be taken lightly. It does more than just erode faith slowly. It can destroy a person's faith immediately. Suicide is a sin a person cannot repent of. Cain's murderous sin done against his brother had hardened his heart towards God even more.

HatGuy said:
People also tend to give up on faith when you tell them that their faith was only a one-time event and now the deal is sealed.

Well, if they believed this from the start, then they never truly understood the entirety of the gospel message.

If they have come to believe this later, they had been led away from the faith.

HatGuy said:
This is how I'm currently working it out, and it makes scriptural sense to me. In every group of verses that speak about what we ought to do, there is first a discussion on faith. In all the warning verses, faith is always the central factor and sin the secondary one.

Faith and Sin are the two opposite sides of each other.
One is not central with the other being secondary.
One who does not have faith is in sin.
One who is in sin does not have faith while they sin because sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). God's laws are a part of the faith. If you break them, you go against the faith. Can we repent and get ourselves right with God? Sure we can. But this leads us to walk in God's good ways and it does not lead us to think that we are flawed and broken and we cannot help but to sin (Whereby we will just ultimately break God's laws at some point). Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus did not say this favorably to the people he was talking to. Jesus says, with God all things are possible. So we can overcome sin and not put in danger our souls.

HatGuy said:
For the record, I've been trying for four years to believe what the Word says: that Jesus will make me perfect (mature) and completely clean; that I am, indeed, dead to sin. I even wrote a book about it. It seems to me that your video dude is right: we have to really believe it, and God honours that faith and heals, just like he did in the scriptures. It takes time to truly believe, but he is also perfecting our faith.

I am glad you think he is right. Watch his two part video on Sins That Leads To Death.

Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may God's love shine upon you today.

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
First, the OSAS Interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not fit the context. Especially when John states, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4). In fact, we see no surrounding text tell us anything to support the idea that the truth is not in us if we say we are not always sinning (Important Note: 1 John 1:10 says almost the same thing that 1 John 1:8 says; So it is not support or proof that the Bible is clearly telling us in another way that we always be in sin).

Second, the idea of saying we are always in sin would not be true, either. It is very easy to not sin for a day and or even a week being a born again believer in Jesus Christ. We can retreat to a forest and we can pray for a week with God’s Word, or we can simply pray so as not to be led into temptation and remove ourselves from sinful things. If you do not think it is not possible to do such a thing, do you think a person can stop sinning for 5 minutes? How about an hour? Jesus says, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation." (Matthew 26:41). Paul says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13). If such is the case, then the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is clearly false.

Three, 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the person who denies sin’s existence: This is basically a person saying that "sin" does not apply to them in regards to their right standing with God. For as I said before, 1 John 2:4 says the same thing, but using different words. 1 John 3:4 says “sin is transgression of the Law.” Laws are the same thing as Commands. So not keeping the Commandments is sin. In light of this fact, this is what 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments [i.e. sins], is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” ‭In other words, when one says they walk with God and yet they sin, the truth is not in them (according to Scripture) because they are ignoring sin (by breaking the commandments) in their self professed walk with God. For he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8), and all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).

Also, Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and that it does not exist. OSAS Proponents think that for a believer in Jesus, all sin is paid for (Including present and future sins that are not confessed). But 1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9). So they deny the consequences of sin in relation to their right standing with God (Making it seem like sin has no effect in regards to their salvation). They deny confessing sins so as to be forgiven because they already believe they have been forgiven for all time (In regards to their right standing with God). But wouldn’t God have to agree with this wrong way of salvation or sin in order for such a plan of salvation to work? Can God agree with sin? Surely not. For God is good and all His ways are righteous and holy.

Four, who is the “WE” in 1 John chapter 1? The word “we” is an impersonal generic reference to everyone. While John was writing to certain believers warning them about the false gnostics who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26), we have to realize that the “we” is talking to all men. Please take note that I just said “we” in this last past sentence (using in the same way that John does). The Bible was ultimately written to all men. So while there are many instances where one writer is talking to a specific people or person, we also have to realize that many times their message had a wider application to ALL of mankind because it was to be divinely inspired Holy Scripture to lead man to have a right relationship with God.

Here is one way of stating 1 John 1:8 in the KJV,

“If we say that we have no sin [when we do sin], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

Here is another way of saying it,

“If we say that we have no sin [in the sense that sin does not apply to us or that sin does not exist], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God's love and peace always be upon you.

Side Note:
All words in brackets in blue is my commentary to Scripture.
Have a blessed day.
And take care.

...

1john1:8 is very plainly written. However, if you are not prepared to accept the plain text, you wont ask others to accept plain text you quote will you. Must be consistent

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
First, faith establishes the Law.
This is how it always was.
The Old Testament saints had faith in the Lord and yet they obeyed God's Commands.
They believed in a coming Messiah.
In fact, Abraham had seen Christ's day and was glad.

Second, if faith establishes the Law, then that means you are under a Law of righteousness of some kind. For if faith is the gas that makes the vehicle of Law to move (i.e. to establish the Law), then they have a synergetic relationship with each other.

Three, I have faith in Jesus as our Savior and that He can forgive us of our sins. I have faith in the words of Jesus in what He told me to do. For Jesus did not tell us to treat sin lightly and nor did Jesus give us a free pass to sin or to live however we like (Whether that be alot of sin or a little bit of sin within our lives). On the contrary, Jesus warned us about sin and that it will have dire consequences for our souls in the after life (Matthew 5:28-30), (Matthew 6:15), (Matthew 7:26-27), (Matthew 12:36-37). In fact, Paul even says shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Old Law)? Paul replies with, "God forbid." James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17).

You believe there is just one Law for all of mankind, right?
You believe Christians are not under any Law salvation wise, right?
You don't believe the Law has changed, right?

If that is the case, then why are there two laws mentioned in Romans 8:2?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2).

So there is...

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
#2. The law of Sin and Death.

What does the first law to do the second law?
It makes us free from it according to Romans 8:2.

Also, why does the author of Hebrews say that the Law has changed?
(Hebrews 7:12).

Do Christians obey God's laws?
If so, then what is the point in obeying them if they do not relate to our salvation?
Did not God command us to repent? (Acts 17:30).
Did not Jesus command us to believe in Him? (1 John 3:23).
Did not Jesus say the following? "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
Did not Jesus say if you love me, keep my Commandments? (John 14:15).
Can a Christian not love Jesus in this way and be in good standing with Him?
If so, then would it not be contrary to the words of Jesus here?
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

...

Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith I Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law( of righteousness) but under grace( a righteousness of faith in Christ)
Rom6:14

In rom3:20-30 Paul strssses the christian has a righteousness apart from law. They are not justified by observing the law so there can be no boasting.
Now you have to read verse 31 bearing Tha in mind!!!
What would some of Paul's readers have thought after what he stated in those verses?
The same as you keep saying here:
Well if we are justified apart from law we dont have to worry about keeping Gods laws.

Paul then gives them one of the most understated verses in the NT imo.

By living APART from a righteousness of law, you wont nullify the law, you will live a more holy life/ better uphold the law. Hence rom6:14 which compliments 3:31

This is what you cannot understand. Pauls core message was:
Die to a law of righteousness, live by a righteousness of faith in Christ and sin shall not be your master

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

supescritter said:
Thank-you Jason for persisting in this topic.

You are most welcome.

superscritter said:
I am reading what you write with a spirit of learning. As I have said before, I do not wish to argue, but I want to explore the full extent of your interpretation to test against other interpretations to ascertain the truth. I have noticed that people seem unwilling to budge from their presuppositions on both sides of the discussion.

The problem with a person having a wrong interpretation with God's Word in regards to Soteriology always boils down to the fact that they do not believe God's Word in what it plainly says because of some personal motivation in their desire to do something wrong vs. doing what they know to be good and right (According to God's Word). Most today do not even know about the many commands given to us in the New Testament. They see God's laws as something that is optional or just benefitical to their fellowship with God and not as something that deals with their right standing with Him. For Acts 17:30 says, God commands all men to repent, and 1 John 3:23 is a command to believe on Jesus and to love one another.

Superscritter said:
On your 1 John 1:9 interpretation, I find this one better:
1 John 1:9 explained.

The summary to the article is this:
A wrong understanding of God’s unconditional love and forgiveness will result in a love and forgiveness toward others that is based on man’s forgiveness instead of God’s. If a person thinks they have to ask for forgiveness from God in order to be forgiven, then that person will exemplify the same sort of forgiveness toward others. They will think that there is no way I am going to forgive the person that did wrong to me, until they ask for it. Believers are told today, “be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” (Ephesians 4:32) Understanding God’s forgiveness is paramount toward treating others with the kind of love and compassion as completely displayed by God. Once a person accepts the truth, that they are forgiven completely, then that person will “love because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19).

Again, this is not complicated. Just read and believe 1 John 1:9 in what it says. It says,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It makes no sense to ask for the forgiveness of sins so as to be forgiven if you were forgiven of all sins (including present and future sins). But OSAS proponents believe they are forgiven of future sins and yet they regard 1 John 1:9 as asking for forgiveness so as to deal with fellowship involving God (and not salvation). But again, there is nothing in John's epistle that this is some kind of sin that just breaks fellowship and does not cause a loss of salvation. On the contrary, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So it is a condition. We have to walk in the light or the righteousness of Christ in order to have his blood cleanse us of sin. This is a salvation issue because you need the blood of Jesus in order to be saved.

Superscritter said:
You quoted: Matthew 19:21 and say that we must do works, but I don't think Matt 19:21 says that. People often use that verse to imply that Jesus wants ALL of us to lead a life of poverty, but Jesus met many rich people and only said those words to that one rich man. Why? Because the rich man depended on his own righteousness, and not God's righteousness. Since the rich man depended on his own righteousness, then he was commanded to sell everything in order to be perfect in his own righteousness - something that he couldn't do. On the other hand, we can be righteous through faith AND if we don't depend on our own righteousness. The conclusion of that parable is the apostles asking Jesus "who can be saved" and then Jesus replying cryptically "with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible" - what does this mean? I think this contradicts your interpretation of 19:21 - Jesus is saying that only being saved by grace (without merit) can man be saved - man cannot save himself by his own perfection.

Hmmm, no. Jesus concluded that this was supposed to be for everyone.

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29).

"...Has not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5).

In 1 Timothy 6:6-11, we are told that we are to flee such things like in being rich and in loving money and instead we are to follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Superscritter said:
You quoted other verses like 1 Peter 1:16 and Matthew 5:48 which seem to imply that we have to live a life of self-righteousness. But maybe those verses don't mean that. What if "being holy" means believing in Jesus' gift of salvation, which makes us holy?

The context of 1 Peter 1:16 refutes such an idea.

It says,

14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; " (1 Peter 1:14-15).

Clearly this is talking about obedience in regards to holiness and not some kind of belief alone on Jesus here to make us holy.

As for Matthew 5:48, this is said in context to again actions of holiness that is repeatedly mentioned over and over within chapter 5, and it does not mention a belief alone in Jesus to be holy. For even verse 44 says this,

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; " (Matthew 5:44).

Not to mention the fact that Jesus tells us about the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-10), Jesus says, whoesever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:20), and Jesus says that a person could be cast into hell fire bodily for looking upon women in lust (Matthew 5:28-30).

Nothing is mentoned about a belief in Jesus in Matthew 5. Righteous actions is the focus of Matthew 5. Just read it and believe it for yourself.

Superscritter said:
You quoted John 5:14 - here is an article that addresses that:

Superscritter said:
PM Notes: Go And Sin No More? Taking A Closer Look At John 8:11b

In John 5:14, what the article is failing to talk about at any significant length is that Jesus said a worse thing will come upon this man if he were to sin again.

Jesus said, "...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3).

Repentance is confessing your sins to the Lord and forsaking them.
How so? Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12, so we cannot try to invent our own interpretation on it.

In Matthew 12:41 says that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah.

If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3 and read Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry ot to God.
(b) Forsake their sins or evil ways.

We also learn from these verses that God had ---- THEN --- turned away from His wrath or judgment against the Ninevites when he seen that they forsaked their evil ways (and not before).

Superscritter said:
Thanks.

You are most welcome.
And may God's good and righteous ways fill your day today.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
1john1:8 is very plainly written. However, if you are not prepared to accept the plain text, you wont ask others to accept plain text you quote will you. Must be consistent

Show me a surrounding verse besides 1 John 1:10 that states a similar truth or states something to support the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

I will await your Scriptural silence from 1 John 1 and 1 John 2 as confirmation that I am right.

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You are most welcome.

The problem with a person having a wrong interpretation with God's Word in regards to Soteriology always boils down to the fact that they do not believe God's Word in what it plainly says because of some personal motivation in their desire to do something wrong vs. doing what they know to be good and right (According to God's Word). Most today do not even know about the many commands given to us in the New Testament. They see God's laws as something that is optional or just benefitical to their fellowship with God and not as something that deals with their right standing with Him. For Acts 17:30 says, God commands all men to repent, and 1 John 3:23 is a command to believe on Jesus and to love one another.

Again, this is not complicated. Just read and believe 1 John 1:9 in what it says. It says,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It makes no sense to ask for the forgiveness of sins so as to be forgiven if you were forgiven of all sins (including present and future sins). But OSAS proponents believe they are forgiven of future sins and yet they regard 1 John 1:9 as asking for forgiveness so as to deal with fellowship involving God (and not salvation). But again, there is nothing in John's epistle that this is some kind of sin that just breaks fellowship and does not cause a loss of salvation. On the contrary, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So it is a condition. We have to walk in the light or the righteousness of Christ in order to have his blood cleanse us of sin. This is a salvation issue because you need the blood of Jesus in order to be saved.

Hmmm, no. Jesus concluded that this was supposed to be for everyone.

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29).

"...Has not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5).

In 1 Timothy 6:6-11, we are told that we are to flee such things like in being rich and in loving money and instead we are to follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

The context of 1 Peter 1:16 refutes such an idea.

It says,

14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; " (1 Peter 1:14-

...

Jason0047 said:
Show me a surrounding verse besides 1 John 1:10 that states a similar truth or states something to support the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

I will await your Scriptural silence from 1 John 1 and 1 John 2 as confirmation that I am right.

...

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed
Jamesv5:16

You need to stop just quoting the letter, and refusing to accept the letter you don't like.

You yourself commit sin, yet you believe you are saved. But here you are arguing against Johns words in 1 john 1:8. Frankly it I nonsensical

Your message would be perfect if you preached it to robots

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith I Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law( of righteousness) but under grace( a righteousness of faith in Christ)
Rom6:14

In rom3:20-30 Paul strssses the christian has a righteousness apart from law. They are not justified by observing the law so there can be no boasting.
Now you have to read verse 31 bearing Tha in mind!!!
What would some of Paul's readers have thought after what he stated in those verses?
The same as you keep saying here:
Well if we are justified apart from law we dont have to worry about keeping Gods laws.

Paul then gives them one of the most understated verses in the NT imo.

By living APART from a righteousness of law, you wont nullify the law, you will live a more holy life/ better uphold the law. Hence rom6:14 which compliments 3:31

This is what you cannot understand. Pauls core message was:
Die to a law of righteousness, live by a righteousness of faith in Christ and sin shall not be your master

Do you believe in doing righteous things in your faith towards Jesus?
Yes, or no?

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You are most welcome.

The problem with a person having a wrong interpretation with God's Word in regards to Soteriology always boils down to the fact that they do not believe God's Word in what it plainly says because of some personal motivation in their desire to do something wrong vs. doing what they know to be good and right (According to God's Word). Most today do not even know about the many commands given to us in the New Testament. They see God's laws as something that is optional or just benefitical to their fellowship with God and not as something that deals with their right standing with Him. For Acts 17:30 says, God commands all men to repent, and 1 John 3:23 is a command to believe on Jesus and to love one another.

Again, this is not complicated. Just read and believe 1 John 1:9 in what it says. It says,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It makes no sense to ask for the forgiveness of sins so as to be forgiven if you were forgiven of all sins (including present and future sins). But OSAS proponents believe they are forgiven of future sins and yet they regard 1 John 1:9 as asking for forgiveness so as to deal with fellowship involving God (and not salvation). But again, there is nothing in John's epistle that this is some kind of sin that just breaks fellowship and does not cause a loss of salvation. On the contrary, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So it is a condition. We have to walk in the light or the righteousness of Christ in order to have his blood cleanse us of sin. This is a salvation issue because you need the blood of Jesus in order to be saved.

Hmmm, no. Jesus concluded that this was supposed to be for everyone.

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29).

"...Has not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5).

In 1 Timothy 6:6-11, we are told that we are to flee such things like in being rich and in loving money and instead we are to follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

The context of 1 Peter 1:16 refutes such an idea.

It says,

14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; " (1 Peter 1:14-15).

Clearly this is talking about obedience in regards to holiness and not some kind of belief alone on Jesus here to make us holy.

As for Matthew 5:48, this is said in context to again actions of holiness that is repeatedly mentioned over and over within chapter 5, and it does not mention a belief alone in Jesus to be holy. For even verse 44 says this,

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; " (Matthew 5:44).

Not to mention the fact that Jesus tells us about the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-10), Jesus says, whoesever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:20), and Jesus says that a person could be cast into hell fire bodily for looking upon women in lust (Matthew 5:28-30).

Nothing is mentoned about a belief in Jesus in Matthew 5. Righteous actions is the focus of Matthew 5. Just read it and believe it for yourself.

In John 5:14, what the article is failing to talk about at any significant length is that Jesus said a worse thing will come upon this man if he were to sin again.

Jesus said, "...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3).

Repentance is confessing your sins to the Lord and forsaking them.
How so? Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12, so we cannot try to invent our own interpretation on it.

In Matthew 12:41 says that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah.

If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3 and read Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry ot to God.
(b) Forsake their sins or evil ways.

We also learn from these verses that God had ---- THEN --- turned away from His wrath or judgment against the Ninevites when he seen that they forsaked their evil ways (and not before).

You are most welcome.
And may God's good and righteous ways fill your day today.

...

People do not believe what Gods word plainly says for they desire to do wrong things?????

Gods word plainly states on numerous occasions the christian is not under a law of righteousness.
You refuse to accept it

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Do you believe in doing righteous things in your faith towards Jesus?
Yes, or no?

...

I see you didn't bother to address the post. Difficult I imagine for you to do so.

Once again, the law is placed in the Christians heart. They in their heart desire to follow it

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed
Jamesv5:16

You need to stop just quoting the letter, and refusing to accept the letter you don't like.

You yourself commit sin, yet you believe you are saved. But here you are arguing against Johns words in 1 john 1:8. Frankly it I nonsensical

Your message would be perfect if you preached it to robots

No. 1 John 1:9 is in context to 1 John 2:1 with Jesus being our advocate if we do happen to honestly stumble in our walk in overcoming sin in this life. For John tells us to: "sin not." But if we do sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ that we can go to. This is the person you confess your sins to according to 1 John 1:9. This verse has nothing to do with James 5:16.

James 5:16 is dealing with confessing faults towards one's fellow brethren so that they can pray for you and lay hands on you so that you can be healed and forgiven.

But if you were to keep reading in James 5, you will run into a passage (that you will no doubt not like). For it says,

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
(James 5:19-20).

In other words, if a brother errs from the truth of God's Word or the faith into sin, and a faithful fellow brother were to convert this backslidden brother back to the faith, they are in effect helping to convert this sinner from the error of his ways and they are saving his soul from death (Which is no doubt by getting them to repent of their sins to God) (See Acts 8:22 where Peter tells Simon to repent of his wickedness so that he may be forgiven of his sin).

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
People do not believe what Gods word plainly says for they desire to do wrong things?????

Gods word plainly states on numerous occasions the christian is not under a law of righteousness.
You refuse to accept it

Paul is clearly referencing the Law of Moses and not all Law.
This is evident if you were to look at the context.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
I see you didn't bother to address the post. Difficult I imagine for you to do so.

Once again, the law is placed in the Christians heart. They in their heart desire to follow it

I am merely trying to get you to see your own faulty understanding on the verses you brought up. Answering the questions honestly will help you to see the truth that you are ignoring.

Anyways, you keep saying that the Law is placed in a Christian's heart, but I am suspicious or doubtful if you really believe that. For you said before in Galatians 2:17 that we are found as sinners and you are saying that we must always be willing to admit we are sinners according to 1 John 1:8.

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Paul is clearly referencing the Law of Moses and not all Law.
This is evident if you were to look at the context.

...

Your problem I Jadon, you have the ability to quote the letter, but cannot interpret it, or understand the heart of the message it contains.

I have already proven when Paul states the christian I not under a law of righteousness Thi includes the TC

But you oppose Paul's message.

You refuse to believe the christian has righteousness apart from law( rom3:21) and insist to fulfill Christs law we must look to, and strive to obey each and every literal command. Paul states otherwise( gal6:2)

So why quote Paul? You refuse to accept his message

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I am merely trying to get you to see your own faulty understanding on the verses you brought up. Answering the questions honestly will help you to see the truth that you are ignoring.

Anyways, you keep saying that the Law is placed in a Christian's heart, but I am suspicious or doubtful if you really believe that. For you said before in Galatians 2:17 that we are found as sinners and you are saying that we must always be willing to admit we are sinners according to 1 John 1:8.

...

But you tried to explain yesterday gal2:16&17 didn't you are your explanation was hopelessly wrong. It is you who have proved faulty understanding Jason

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I am merely trying to get you to see your own faulty understanding on the verses you brought up. Answering the questions honestly will help you to see the truth that you are ignoring.

Anyways, you keep saying that the Law is placed in a Christian's heart, but I am suspicious or doubtful if you really believe that. For you said before in Galatians 2:17 that we are found as sinners and you are saying that we must always be willing to admit we are sinners according to 1 John 1:8.

...

And sadly your continued distortion of gal2:17 shows your heart on Thi matter.
You have continually had explained to you that concerns the crossing over period from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness.
Try and be honest Jason

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Your problem I Jadon, you have the ability to quote the letter, but cannot interpret it, or understand the heart of the message it contains.

I have already proven when Paul states the christian I not under a law of righteousness Thi includes the TC

But you oppose Paul's message.

You refuse to believe the christian has righteousness apart from law( rom3:21) and insist to fulfill Christs law we must look to, and strive to obey each and every literal command. Paul states otherwise( gal6:2)

So why quote Paul? You refuse to accept his message

Galatians 6:2 says bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. This is a Law under the New Covenant. It does not mean what you think it says (of which I have no idea what that is).

Galatians 6:8 says,
"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Are you sowing to the flesh or are you sowing to the Spirit?

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
And sadly your continued distortion of gal2:17 shows your heart on Thi matter.
You have continually had explained to you that concerns the crossing over period from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness.
Try and be honest Jason

You are repeating yourself.
I have already addressed these verses before.
You are not willing to explain the context of other verses in Galatians like Galatians 5:19-21 for starters.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Your problem I Jadon

Actually, my name is Jason; And not Jadon.

...

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Galatians 6:2 says bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. This is a Law under the New Covenant. It does not mean what you think it says (of which I have no idea what that is).

Galatians 6:8 says,
"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Are you sowing to the flesh or are you sowing the Spirit?

...

Like you admit you do Jason i commit sin for I am not perfect in the flesh. So we are both the same in Thi regard.
However, we are here to discuss christian theology, not each others personal victories or faliures.

I can tell you, scripturally speaking, according to our different views on the gospel, you would be a bigger sinner than me, according to the scriptural message Tha is

stuart lawrence · Jan 11, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You are repeating yourself.
I have already addressed these verses before.
You are not willing to explain the context of other verses in Galatians like Galatians 5:19-21 for starters.

....

Yes, you said the verses referred to Non applicable OT law.
But Paul was speaking of new christians being evident sinners.
You cannot be an evident sinner concerning non applicable law.

You sure you want to quote Gal5:19-21?

As you live under a law of righteousness sin shall be your master, according to Paul

Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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