The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

Paidiske · Sep 30, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
To get rid of that risk, you can either remove the bullet or get rid of the gun altogether. So what would be the proper way to eliminate the rape threat from men - emasculate every male child?

The original concept was used to explain to men that a woman might choose not to engage with him, not to go on a date with him, etc - and that he needed to accept that choice.

Nobody (in this thread) is saying that we need to eliminate men, or anything like that. I have come across some very radical arguments that one way to reduce rape might be to impose a curfew on men, or something like that, but I wouldn't support such a proposal either.

In a free society I don't think you can eliminate the risk. You can only manage it. Which comes back around to where we started...

DaveW-Ohev said:
The fact that you react within yourself differently to men and women is profiling and prejudiced. Also - I do not think that is necessarily bad or un-called for; but it IS discriminatory and you need to recognize it as such.

Until you react to women as being potential rapists the EXACT SAME way and degree you react to men, you are being prejudiced.

But my acting differently around men and women isn't necessarily about rape risk. The sort of different behaviour I meant was, for example, I've noticed that if I'm walking down the street I'm likely to seek eye contact and smile at a women. I'm likely to keep my head down and avoid eye contact with men.

I don't know why I do that; I only really noticed it in the last few years. I suspect it probably comes from having been a painfully socially awkward teenager who didn't know how to relate to boys, and then it became ingrained.

But it's not profiling unless you see it as somehow worse treatment of men. And it's not prejudiced unless you think it's about them, not me. All I was pointing out was that we often interact differently with men and women (like the men who curb their swearing around women, too, or women who are less mindful of modesty in an all-female environment, those were the sorts of things I had in mind. We live in a gendered society, and we interact on that basis. I don't think that's intrinsically bad).

And as for whether or not my contribution to this discussion is causing harm, I came in to argue against the idea that all men are or could be rapists. So how precisely is that causing harm?

Ana the Ist · Oct 1, 2016

Paidiske said:
The original concept was used to explain to men that a woman might choose not to engage with him, not to go on a date with him, etc - and that he needed to accept that choice.

I think there's a lot of better ways of making that point without suggesting to the guy he's a potential rapist.

Nobody (in this thread) is saying that we need to eliminate men, or anything like that. I have come across some very radical arguments that one way to reduce rape might be to impose a curfew on men, or something like that, but I wouldn't support such a proposal either.

In a free society I don't think you can eliminate the risk. You can only manage it. Which comes back around to where we started...

Managing risk is more of the responsibility of those who think themselves at risk...wouldn't you agree?

But my acting differently around men and women isn't necessarily about rape risk. The sort of different behaviour I meant was, for example, I've noticed that if I'm walking down the street I'm likely to seek eye contact and smile at a women. I'm likely to keep my head down and avoid eye contact with men.

I don't know why I do that; I only really noticed it in the last few years. I suspect it probably comes from having been a painfully socially awkward teenager who didn't know how to relate to boys, and then it became ingrained.

But it's not profiling unless you see it as somehow worse treatment of men. And it's not prejudiced unless you think it's about them, not me. All I was pointing out was that we often interact differently with men and women (like the men who curb their swearing around women, too, or women who are less mindful of modesty in an all-female environment, those were the sorts of things I had in mind. We live in a gendered society, and we interact on that basis. I don't think that's intrinsically bad).

And as for whether or not my contribution to this discussion is causing harm, I came in to argue against the idea that all men are or could be rapists. So how precisely is that causing harm?

You said it isn't "profiling" unless it's somehow a worse treatment of men...

Imagine for a moment, that for whatever reason, white women your age were profiled as potential shoplifters. You go to a store and notice that a store attendant is watching you.

Perhaps she's wondering if you need help...perhaps not. Surely you can see how if the message that society was spreading about you was that you're a potential shoplifter...it might end up having a negative impact on you, your self image, self esteem, and even actions?

Paidiske · Oct 1, 2016

Ana the Ist said:
Managing risk is more of the responsibility of those who think themselves at risk...wouldn't you agree?

Isn't that the whole point of what I've been saying? That women manage the risk of rape, and this is not unfair to men?

Ana the Ist said:
You said it isn't "profiling" unless it's somehow a worse treatment of men...

Imagine for a moment, that for whatever reason, white women your age were profiled as potential shoplifters. You go to a store and notice that a store attendant is watching you.

Perhaps she's wondering if you need help...perhaps not. Surely you can see how if the message that society was spreading about you was that you're a potential shoplifter...it might end up having a negative impact on you, your self image, self esteem, and even actions?

Yes, I can see that point.

So, how about this as a way forward? We all do everything we can to make our society one in which rape is minimised. And then the perception of risk will drop, women will feel safer, and men will feel less as if we're wondering if they might be rapists.

What I'm saying is, the problem underlying all of this is not that women think some men might rape. It's that so many rapes happen! Fix that, and the rest disappears.

Ana the Ist · Oct 1, 2016

Paidiske said:
Isn't that the whole point of what I've been saying? That women manage the risk of rape, and this is not unfair to men?

I don't think it's fair to manage risk by profiling men. Imagine if this suggestion were being made..."all women who get raped are potentially asking for it."

Yes, I can see that point.

So, how about this as a way forward? We all do everything we can to make our society one in which rape is minimised. And then the perception of risk will drop, women will feel safer, and men will feel less as if we're wondering if they might be rapists.

What I'm saying is, the problem underlying all of this is not that women think some men might rape. It's that so many rapes happen! Fix that, and the rest disappears.

Any ideas on how to "fix that"?

Paidiske · Oct 1, 2016

Nobody "asks for" rape.

From what I understand, public campaigns around issues of consent have been very successful. I've heard that the "Don't be that guy" campaign correlated with a significant drop in reported rapes/sexual assaults. Which suggests that a lot of it is to do with the underlying attitudes which allow a rapist to think what he's doing is okay, and how we as a society inculcate different attitudes.

Kylie · Oct 31, 2016

LOVEthroughINTELLECT said:
The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist" is that it implies that sexual assault is an explosion waiting to happen in every male member of our species.

Just now I was searching through Google for the phrase "Every man is a potential rapist" and found discussions where people, including men themselves, were saying that if you are a man you are fooling yourself if you think that you are not capable of ever raping a woman. At least that is what I took their words to mean.

It is saying that, whether you are conscious of it or not, as a male in contemporary societies you are carrying around beliefs, attitudes, behavioral patterns, etc. that are the recipe for committing sexual assault.

I think that it is essentially saying that men--whether they are conscious of it or not; whether they accept it or not--cannot control themselves and therefore a great deal of social structure and social sanctions is needed to control them.

Apparently there are even people with advanced degrees in the social sciences saying that there is a "switch" in every man that the right conditions will flip and cause him to rape women.

If "Every man is a potential rapist" is simply a reminder that some men do sexually assault women and therefore precautions need to be taken, it is poorly worded.

Saying something like "Sexual assault is a threat that women need to be conscious of" would probably be more accurate. It would be the same as what we all regularly hear about identity theft, scams, computer viruses, terrorist attacks, workplace violence, etc.

Saying, "Every man is a potential rapist", whether it is intended to or not, can be taken as a statement about men. Not about culture. Not about social conditions. A statement about the psyche of every male member of our species. And apparently a lot of people, wittingly or unwittingly, do take it that way.

If I had a bowl of candy, and one of them was laced with a poison that would kill you, you would look at every candy in that bowl as potential poison. It is not a statement about the candy, but about how you must look at the candy if you want to protect yourself.

As a woman, I have to look at every man I encounter as someone who could be a rapist. I know that the vast majority of men are not, but the point is that I can't tell. And since the magnitude of the outcome is rather extreme, I have to take precautions to protect myself against it. If I let my guard down, then horrible things could happen to me.

So when people say, "every man is a potential rapist," it is not saying that all men could commit rape. It is saying that this is how women must view men.

Jack of Spades · Oct 31, 2016

LOVEthroughINTELLECT said:
The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist" is that it implies that sexual assault is an explosion waiting to happen in every male member of our species.

Just now I was searching through Google for the phrase "Every man is a potential rapist" and found discussions where people, including men themselves, were saying that if you are a man you are fooling yourself if you think that you are not capable of ever raping a woman. At least that is what I took their words to mean.

It is saying that, whether you are conscious of it or not, as a male in contemporary societies you are carrying around beliefs, attitudes, behavioral patterns, etc. that are the recipe for committing sexual assault.

I think that it is essentially saying that men--whether they are conscious of it or not; whether they accept it or not--cannot control themselves and therefore a great deal of social structure and social sanctions is needed to control them.

Apparently there are even people with advanced degrees in the social sciences saying that there is a "switch" in every man that the right conditions will flip and cause him to rape women.

If "Every man is a potential rapist" is simply a reminder that some men do sexually assault women and therefore precautions need to be taken, it is poorly worded.

Saying something like "Sexual assault is a threat that women need to be conscious of" would probably be more accurate. It would be the same as what we all regularly hear about identity theft, scams, computer viruses, terrorist attacks, workplace violence, etc.

Saying, "Every man is a potential rapist", whether it is intended to or not, can be taken as a statement about men. Not about culture. Not about social conditions. A statement about the psyche of every male member of our species. And apparently a lot of people, wittingly or unwittingly, do take it that way.

Let me try to describe a man:

Men have very strong natural protection instinct towards women and children. So, every man is a potential hero who is every moment about to save dozens of women and kids from traffic accidents and from being eaten by mammoths and crocodiles. The protection instinct of a male is a trigger to unleash his natural physical strength and courage to fight lions and bears without fear or second thought.

The male protection instinct forms a heroic mixture with his naturally, biologically wired rational thinking, strength and courage. These traits make male the ultimate hero in the human world, the reliable guardian and savior in times of danger. All this just because of his nature as a male. It is truely safe to be around a man, because his very nature is wired to both want to protect you, and to do it extremely well.

This statement is as true as the claim in OP. A simplified, generalized statement filled with emotional language.

Kylie · Oct 31, 2016

Jack of Spades said:
Let me try to describe a man:

Men have very strong natural protection instinct towards women and children. So, every man is a potential hero who is every moment about to save dozens of women and kids from traffic accidents and from being eaten by mammoths and crocodiles. The protection instinct of a male is a trigger to unleash his natural physical strength and courage to fight lions and bears without fear or second thought.

The male protection instinct forms a heroic mixture with his naturally, biologically wired rational thinking, strength and courage. These traits make male the ultimate hero in the human world, the reliable guardian and savior in times of danger. All this just because of his nature as a male. It is truely safe to be around a man, because his very nature is wired to both want to protect you, and to do it extremely well.

This statement is as true as the claim in OP. A simplified, generalized statement filled with emotional language.

You are right, and you have completely missed the point.

Yes, we know that not all men are rapists.

But we can't afford to take the chance and let our guard down, because if we are wrong, we will be assaulted or even killed.

In the "every man is a potential hero" example, if the guy really is a hero, then nothing bad happens.

But in the "every man is a potential rapist" example, if he really is, then horrible things happen.

Jack of Spades · Oct 31, 2016

KTS said:
You are right, and you have completely missed the point.

Yes, we know that not all men are rapists.

But we can't afford to take the chance and let our guard down, because if we are wrong, we will be assaulted or even killed.

I didn't miss the point, I just knowingly rebelled against the rhetoric.

What you said in this and your previous post (I actually read them) is a reasonable interpretation. I can understand if it's used as an advice for precaution. It makes perfect sense.

But there is actually another, more philosophical way to understand the "all men are potential rapists" phrase, extreme feminists use this as an argument to discredit and demean males and male opinions. If the innermost nature of male is that of a rapist, then everything that is said and done by men, is logically to be viewed as an attempt to unchain this monster within. That logic makes everything said or suggested by a man to be dangerous, because of his sex that drives him to be danger for women.

My friend who happens to be an academic teaching ethics, says he encounters this line of thinking at his job, academic feminists who have a stance that males should not even be part of discussion about anything related to gender or society because their nature is to just oppress women and they can't help it. And for the record, he's a reasonable guy, fairly liberal, not the kind of a chauvinist who would provoke that reaction.

RDKirk · Oct 31, 2016

KTS said:
You are right, and you have completely missed the point.

Yes, we know that not all men are rapists.

But we can't afford to take the chance and let our guard down, because if we are wrong, we will be assaulted or even killed.

In the "every man is a potential hero" example, if the guy really is a hero, then nothing bad happens.

But in the "every man is a potential rapist" example, if he really is, then horrible things happen.

And I can by the same rationale view every police officer as my potential murderer and every white person as a racist.

But if I'm doing that, how can I as a Christian see them as potential brothers?

Paidiske · Oct 31, 2016

It's possible to be aware of more than one aspect of potential at the same time.

(Parents do it all the time. There's potential that my child will do exactly as I wish, and potential that she will do the exact opposite, and we have to explore that together as she learns and grows and our relationship develops. But when the consequences are big, we tend to minimise the potential for harm (for example, by requiring the child to hold a parent's hand near traffic), even though we may hope and encourage that she will be totally responsible).

Now the parent-child analogy isn't perfect for this situation, but it shows how you can be wary of one set of potential behaviours while open to another.

Jack of Spades · Oct 31, 2016

Paidiske said:
Now the parent-child analogy isn't perfect for this situation, but it shows how you can be wary of one set of potential behaviours while open to another.

I'd like still to bring up the alternative meaning of the phrase, which means that all men are deep down rapists. It's a bit inflammatory rhetoric, and can be easily understood that way, suggesting that you can never trust a man, and men must be controlled all the time because of their heinous nature.

I hope this doesn't sound like nitpicking, and if you happen to live on a very conservative country, or area, I understand that my concerns might sound outlandish, but the constant demeaning tone towards men in public discussion in my country has been a mainstream cultural force for a while and I think it's the next big threat for an actual gender-equal culture.

Gadarene · Oct 31, 2016

KTS said:
If I had a bowl of candy, and one of them was laced with a poison that would kill you, you would look at every candy in that bowl as potential poison. It is not a statement about the candy, but about how you must look at the candy if you want to protect yourself.

As a woman, I have to look at every man I encounter as someone who could be a rapist. I know that the vast majority of men are not, but the point is that I can't tell. And since the magnitude of the outcome is rather extreme, I have to take precautions to protect myself against it. If I let my guard down, then horrible things could happen to me.

So when people say, "every man is a potential rapist," it is not saying that all men could commit rape. It is saying that this is how women must view men.

Ah you're a Trump supporter then?

Gadarene · Oct 31, 2016

Paidiske said:
Isn't that the whole point of what I've been saying? That women manage the risk of rape, and this is not unfair to men?

Yes, I can see that point.

So, how about this as a way forward? We all do everything we can to make our society one in which rape is minimised. And then the perception of risk will drop, women will feel safer, and men will feel less as if we're wondering if they might be rapists.

What I'm saying is, the problem underlying all of this is not that women think some men might rape. It's that so many rapes happen! Fix that, and the rest disappears.

Or women can stop being bigoted and improve that aspect of themselves. You know, the same we expect with all other bigotries.

Paidiske · Oct 31, 2016

Jack, I'm not interested in demeaning men, nor do I believe that all men are deep-down anything bad.

But I'm so frustrated that we can't talk about the problem of some men, without that getting shut down either. How can we find a way to have a constructive discussion about inequality, women's oppression, domestic violence, rape, and so on, without creating the cultural narrative that "men are evil"?

Gadarene · Oct 31, 2016

Paidiske said:
Nobody "asks for" rape.

From what I understand, public campaigns around issues of consent have been very successful. I've heard that the "Don't be that guy" campaign correlated with a significant drop in reported rapes/sexual assaults. Which suggests that a lot of it is to do with the underlying attitudes which allow a rapist to think what he's doing is okay, and how we as a society inculcate different attitudes.

Yes it is a bigoted campaign as it singles out men and only men.

Women rape. Call them out too.

Heck most men know men can rape. Most women usually look dumbly at you if you inform them women can rape.

Gadarene · Oct 31, 2016

Jack of Spades said:
Let me try to describe a man:

Men have very strong natural protection instinct towards women and children. So, every man is a potential hero who is every moment about to save dozens of women and kids from traffic accidents and from being eaten by mammoths and crocodiles. The protection instinct of a male is a trigger to unleash his natural physical strength and courage to fight lions and bears without fear or second thought.

The male protection instinct forms a heroic mixture with his naturally, biologically wired rational thinking, strength and courage. These traits make male the ultimate hero in the human world, the reliable guardian and savior in times of danger. All this just because of his nature as a male. It is truely safe to be around a man, because his very nature is wired to both want to protect you, and to do it extremely well.

This statement is as true as the claim in OP. A simplified, generalized statement filled with emotional language.

Issue for me is also that men are expected to retain protector role.... but don't approach women because you might be a rapist. That combination is pretty psycho.

Gadarene · Oct 31, 2016

Paidiske said:
Jack, I'm not interested in demeaning men, nor do I believe that all men are deep-down anything bad.

But I'm so frustrated that we can't talk about the problem of some men, without that getting shut down either. How can we find a way to have a constructive discussion about inequality, women's oppression, domestic violence, rape, and so on, without creating the cultural narrative that "men are evil"?

Not treating us like potential rapists simply because we are men would be a good start.

Jack of Spades · Oct 31, 2016

Paidiske said:
Jack, I'm not interested in demeaning men, nor do I believe that all men are deep-down anything bad.

But I'm so frustrated that we can't talk about the problem of some men, without that getting shut down either. How can we find a way to have a constructive discussion about inequality, women's oppression, domestic violence, rape, and so on, without creating the cultural narrative that "men are evil"?

Did you happen to read the speech by Michelle Obama on Trump's videotape? It was, in my opinion, a masterpiece to communicate those problems. She carefully drew the line, not just mentioning "btw not all men rape" as a reluctant sidenote, but she described decent men as allies for the women's cause, not as potential enemies. I believe that is the ideal line, if there is one.

But, I think, it depends a bit of the cultural situation, I would say that stronger rhetoric is OK in case of Saudi-Arabia than it is in case of Finland or Iceland (ranking top on gender equality studies).

But, being a cynic, I expect the attempt to fail anyways eventually, the next movement will be female superiority, at least in cultural and attitude sense, if not legally. It's in human nature to go overboard, take revenge and turn things around. I don't expect anything else in the big picture, but I hope big enough number of individuals can find something better in smaller scale.

Dave-W · Oct 31, 2016

KTS said:
So when people say, "every man is a potential rapist," it is not saying that all men could commit rape. It is saying that this is how women must view men.

So we must all be locked up for the ladies' protection?

In general I favor pre-emption to remediation.

The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

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