Why does only Priests have power to forgive?

thecolorsblend said:

Not so because sins aren't directed exclusively toward God. Someone can sin against you and you have the ability to forgive or not forgive them. The Our Father obligates us to forgive those who sin against us. It renders Our Lord's expectation that we forgive others if literally only God the Father can forgive.

Again, some of you Protestants are making no allowance whatsoever for nuance in these things. It's either/or, all-or-nothing and that's just not how things work.

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Well, actually, it's exactly how it works. ANY falling short of God's perfection is a sin. Those who divide them into Mortal and Venial and assume that some will be considered to be something like 'white lies' while others are 'really' important are making the mistake that Works Righteousness always leads to.

thecolorsblend said:

Not so because sins aren't directed exclusively toward God. Someone can sin against you and you have the ability to forgive or not forgive them. The Our Father obligates us to forgive those who sin against us. It renders Our Lord's expectation that we forgive others if literally only God the Father can forgive.

Again, some of you Protestants are making no allowance whatsoever for nuance in these things. It's either/or, all-or-nothing and that's just not how things work.

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We forgive those who trespass against us, yes. But God is the only one that forgives sins.

~Anastasia~ said:

Just because God has given us the means to confess to our Confessor, if we so choose, and receive absolution (God forgives, not the priest, who is merely a witness, as All4Christ said) does NOT automatically mean "God cannot possibly forgive sins on His own apart from the priest". There is no logical requirement there. And it makes no sense to attempt to limit God and His mercy in that way.

It seems this false argument is being put forward.

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That is not what absolution as defined says.

I would wonder how someone who defends Catholicism isn't aware of the meaning of or import in the faith of, absolution.


Catholic Dictionary
Term
ABSOLUTION

Definition
In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin.
The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: "God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." To which the penitent answers, "Amen." In this formula essential words are: "I absolve you." For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., "May God absolve you from your sins." This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.)

VanillaSunflowers said:

That is not what absolution as defined says.

I would wonder how someone who defends Catholicism isn't aware of the meaning of or import in the faith of, absolution.


Catholic Dictionary
Term
ABSOLUTION

Definition
In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin.
The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: "God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." To which the penitent answers, "Amen." In this formula essential words are: "I absolve you." For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., "May God absolve you from your sins." This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.)

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You, and it would seem the Catholic Church, and my Lutheran Synod differentiate between the "Pronouncement" of forgiveness, and Holy Absolution.

VanillaSunflowers said:

That is not what absolution as defined says.

I would wonder how someone who defends Catholicism isn't aware of the meaning of or import in the faith of, absolution.


Catholic Dictionary
Term
ABSOLUTION

Definition
In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin.
The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: "God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." To which the penitent answers, "Amen." In this formula essential words are: "I absolve you." For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., "May God absolve you from your sins." This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.)

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It seems that you have drawn a line between the "pronouncement of Grace" and Holy Absolution.

Below is the standard "absolution" found in our Lutheran liturgical practice:

Upon this your confession, I, by virtue of my office, as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God unto all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the + Son and of the Holy Spirit.

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VanillaSunflowers said:

That is not what absolution as defined says.

I would wonder how someone who defends Catholicism isn't aware of the meaning of or import in the faith of, absolution.


Catholic Dictionary
Term
ABSOLUTION

Definition
In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin.
The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: "God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." To which the penitent answers, "Amen." In this formula essential words are: "I absolve you." For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., "May God absolve you from your sins." This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.)

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You seem to assume all of us are Catholic. Remember, more than one tradition practices confession. Anastasia clearly referenced the Orthodox Church, not the Catholic Church. Please don't assume that you know more about Orthodoxy than we do. We presented the view of the Orthodox Church. I can't speak for the Catholic Church, as I am not Catholic.

I recommend you go back to a previous post I wrote where I included the rite of confession in accordance to the Orthodox Tradition. It is a different rite - and a different pronouncement of forgiveness.

May God Who pardoned David through Nathan the Prophet when he confessed his sins, Who pardoned Peter who wept bitterly for his denial, the Harlot who wept at His feet, the Publican and the Prodigal, forgive you all things, through me a sinner, both in this world and in the world to come, and set you uncondemned before His terrible Judgment Seat. Now, having no further care for the sins which you have confessed, depart in peace.

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@Vanilla Sunflowers - for your convenience, check out this post (and the following post for other traditions' rites of confession): http://www.christianforums.com/thre...power-to-forgive.7958123/page-3#post-70138975

All4Christ said:

Remember that there are nuances between the different Traditions.

The priest's prayer for Orthodox Christians (Greek style - which is the more Traditional text) is as follows:



As Metropolitan Anthony observes, when we come into the mystery of confession, “we are not coming to be judged or condemned. We do not come in terror of what will happen. We come to the One who, being God, beyond suffering, beyond death, has chosen, for the love of us, to become Man, to take upon Himself all our human destiny and to give His life for us.”

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This is very beautiful and conciliatory. The way the Absloution is derived from Scripture is very similar to Luther's "Flood Prayer" that is part of the Baptismal rite; this is one of the most beautiful prayers in our tradition:

MarkRohfrietsch said:

This is very beautiful and conciliatory. The way the Absloution is derived from Scripture is very similar to Luther's "Flood Prayer" that is part of the Baptismal rite; this is one of the most beautiful prayers in our tradition:

Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name) according to Your boundless mercy and bless him with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in him which has been inherited from Adam and which he himself has committed since would be drowned and die. Grant that he be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, he would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. - See more at: http://lutheranreformation.org/history/luthers-flood-prayer/#sthash.W74vrxkD.dpuf​

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That's a beautiful prayer! There is so much rich theology and beauty in the prayers of all our traditions.

VanillaSunflowers said:

We forgive those who trespass against us, yes. But God is the only one that forgives sins.

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It's very big of you to agree with me. I respect you for that.

All4Christ said:

You seem to assume all of us are Catholic.

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I presume you missed it. My remarks were addressed to a member that identified as Eastern Orthodox.

Clearly our understanding of the Church is at much what is at issue here.

The purpose of the redeeming incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus is the reconciliation of Divinity and Humanity. It is the mission of Jesus. It is the person of Jesus.

It does seem clear in scripture (John 20) and in the tradition that the Church understood itself to have the power of the keys. As the Church became the ordered community if faith, and expressed it's sacramental ministry primarily through three sacred orders of ministry (Bishops, Priests and Deacons) the ministry of absolution was increasingly understood to be part of the charism of priesthood.

God of course is the only one who ultimately forgives sin. This is not a new understanding and certainly the pharisees understood that as well (Mark 2:7 and other places). The Church acts as God's agent of mission in the world. One of the places where that mission is expressed very clearly is in the sacrament of confession/reconciliation/absolution or whatever is the name you want to give it.

There is unfortunately a deal of misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of the rite outside the traditional churches. One hears expressions like "three Hail Mary's and back on the street" as if the consequence of sin is being underplayed. Experience tells me that this is not the case.

So back to the OP, priests exercise the sacred ministry of reconciliation by authority of the Church to whom the ministry was entrusted by Jesus.

My understanding is that something of this sacramental ministry is expressed in many Churches, and it is only in some Reformed Churches where this important ministry seems to be less exercised.

All4Christ said:

That's a beautiful prayer! There is so much rich theology and beauty in the prayers of all our traditions.

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We are truly blessed to have such a rich heritage. That bit of Scripture in your signature is not only a prayer of repentence in and of itself, but in one of our oldest settings of the Mass, it us used as the Oferatory:

VanillaSunflowers said:

I presume you missed it. My remarks were addressed to a member that identified as Eastern Orthodox.

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And here I thought All4Christ answered well for me. Ok ... I'll try as well ...

VanillaSunflowers said:

That is not what absolution as defined says.

I would wonder how someone who defends Catholicism isn't aware of the meaning of or import in the faith of, absolution.

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But I'm not defending Catholicism. Nor am I attempting to define what Catholics believe about absolution. That is their place to do, not mine.

And as All4Christ said, I was discussing from the point of view of the Orthodox Church. And we understand that the priest is but a witness, and God forgives sins.

Catholic Dictionary
Term
ABSOLUTION

Definition
In the sacrament of penance, the act by which a qualified priest, having the necessary jurisdiction, remits the guilt and penalty due to sin.
The new formula of absolution, since the Second Vatican Council, is: "God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." To which the penitent answers, "Amen." In this formula essential words are: "I absolve you." For centuries, the Church used the deprecatory form of absolution, e.g., "May God absolve you from your sins." This was really declarative in meaning, as is clear from the fact that in the whole of tradition the priest who absolved was looked upon as a judge who actually absolved, even though he used the subjunctive mood to express his affirmative judgment. (Etym. Latin absolvere, to free from; to absolve, acquit.)

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Ok. But has nothing to do with me. I'm not Catholic. That is not the form we use.

staff edit

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VanillaSunflowers said:

I presume you missed it. My remarks were addressed to a member that identified as Eastern Orthodox.

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You quoted a Catholic source to someone who is Eastern Orthodox. Orthodox is not Catholic, so quoting Catholic definitions isn't necessarily applicable.

All4Christ said:

You quoted a Catholic source to someone who is Eastern Orthodox. Orthodox is not Catholic, so quoting Catholic definitions isn't necessarily applicable.

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Indeed, and then there is the mostly nominal but extant schism between EOs and OOs.

All4Christ said:

You quoted a Catholic source to someone who is Eastern Orthodox. Orthodox is not Catholic, so quoting Catholic definitions isn't necessarily applicable.

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Very strange. The definition nor application doesn't change what Priests do and how they're entrusted to do it.

Eastern Orthodox Church
The Eastern Orthodox Church, also known as the Orthodox Church, or officially as the Orthodox Catholic Church, is the second largest Christian church and one of the oldest religious institutions in the …

VanillaSunflowers said:

Very strange. The definition nor application doesn't change what Priests do and how they're entrusted to do it.

Eastern Orthodox Church
The Eastern Orthodox Church, also known as the Orthodox Church, or officially as the Orthodox Catholic Church, is the second largest Christian church and one of the oldest religious institutions in the …

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Honestly, I don't understand the confusion. I am Orthodox Christian, and I know for a fact that our definition of Confession and Absolution has different nuances than the Catholic Church's definition of Absolution. We don't believe priests forgive sins but we believe that priests are a witness while God forgives the sin. Need proof? Read out Confession rite! It is right in my post a few posts above this. Quoting Catholic sources doesn't change what our beliefs are, no matter what those who aren't Orthodox think we believe. The Orthodox definition of absolution completely changes our approach to this thread, as the core concept of the OP deals with "priests forgiving sins".

Please don't tell us what we believe.

From the Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose:

Sojourner1 said:

....
Likewise, do not "tell" others what their own church teaches and believes. It is encouraged to ask questions about those teachings and beliefs and as well be prepared to answer questions about your own.

...

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ETA:

I just noticed your bold text for Orthodox Catholic Church.

Yes, we believe we are the Orthodox Catholic Church, but that is different than the Catholic Church you quoted (which is in communion with the Patriarch - pope - of Rome). We are not in communion with each other and have differing beliefs. We are not under the Catholic pope, and are a different branch of Christianity.

I'm not vouching for exact correctness of the following diagram, but perhaps this will help in explaining how our churches separated:

With fits and starts, we seem to have come to a conclusion--only the RCC believes that the power to forgive sins has literally been invested in the priests. Everyone else (EO, Luth, Ang) has made the point, sometimes with difficulty, that the church itself has been commissioned to pronounce God's forgiveness to penitents and that the priests/ministers are authorized by the church to perform that function. Is that correct to say?