You might not have a church to go to if you don't vote right.

pdudgeon said:

but if she is elected president, she will already have the emergency powers necessary (provided for her by Obama's executive orders) to do exactly that and much more.
and if the Church is declared to be a menace to the regime, the doors would be shut.

Click to expand...

I think that we all need to remember is that, even if we occasionally encounter pugilistic Catholics on this board, and even though we occasionally read articles about confrontational bishops and priests on this board--the Catholic Church is not confrontational and pugilistic--nor should they be!

We shouldn't judge the Catholic Church based on its most dysfunctional members.

If you look at the dealings Pope Francis, Cardinal Dolan, Cardinal Wuerl and other church leaders have had with federal and state leaders, they are very balanced. They support and encourage the good things governments do and encourage them to alter their policies in other ways. In both parties there are policies the Church supports and policies the Church opposes.

So let's not judge the Church on the basis of its shrillest attack dogs--the government won't, either.

pdudgeon said:

the answer is yes, that's exactly what can happen.
all it takes is for martial law to be declared, and any church or other establishment could be shut down as a public menace to the regime.

Click to expand...

I want to make sure I'm understanding you. You think that Ms Clinton will declare martial law and shut down Churches?

It happens today in the world--India, China, and North Korea are fine examples.

Click to expand...

My experiences with India are quite different than yours, apparently. Tell me more about how India is shutting down Churches please, I want to learn.

LoAmmi said:

Of course what happened in Germany could happen anywhere. Centuries of a specific group being singled out as being horrible people, blamed for everything, made it very easy to not see them as humans. Driven out of Spain, England, and other European nations. Pogroms happening in many of these countries. Locked in ghettos. It's easy to see how singling out a group as all the ills of a nation make it easy to oppress them. They're causing the problem, right? Why not make it so they are no longer around?


Do you want me to argue that one of the candidates has directly stated that we need to take a closer look at mosques because they are harboring terrorists in the nation?

Click to expand...

no, because that's obviously not the answer to the problem that was created by the current administration.

MikeK said:

I want to make sure I'm understanding you. You think that Ms Clinton will declare martial law and shut down Churches?

Click to expand...

I'm saying that the option to do so will be open to her.
all it will take is a liberal majority on the supreme court, and a democratic majority in congress.
she already has the news media in her pocket.

pdudgeon said:

no, because that's obviously not the answer to the problem that was created by the current administration.

Click to expand...

It is hyperbole to the max to state churches will be shut down at all. It won't happen.

LoAmmi said:

It is hyperbole to the max to state churches will be shut down at all. It won't happen.

Click to expand...

The Church has experienced persecution from governments enough times to know intuitively when one is coming.

Before the Holocaust, in the early stage of persecution of Jews in Germany, it started with new laws that excluded Jews from civil service jobs and from university and court positions which is like what's been starting to happen to Christians lately.

LivingWordUnity said:

Before the Holocaust, in the early stage of persecution of Jews in Germany, it started with new laws that excluded Jews from civil service jobs and from university and court positions which is like what's been starting to happen to Christians lately.

Click to expand...

Name one law.

LoAmmi said:

Name one law.

Click to expand...

The HHS mandate, changes to adoption laws, so-called "same-sex marriage," "transgender" laws, and euthanasia are examples of new laws that go against Christian faith and morality and that therefore make it harder for Christians to live our faith without being harassed and punished for it. I know that, being that you agree with all of those things, you are going to tell us that we are wrong for not going along with those laws, but you can't deny that those of us who resist face punishment for it which is something new.

LivingWordUnity said:

The Church has experienced persecution from governments enough times to know intuitively when one is coming.

Click to expand...

Where are the martyrs of the Obamaian persecution akin to those of the Diocletian persecution?

It seems that the promised (/hoped for?) persecution is always just around the corner if your guy doesn't get elected...nevermind that there hasn't been a Republican in the White House for 8 years now and in all that time you've still had churches go to. And nevermind that the last Republican that was in the White House directly intervened in another country to the degree that this intervention did actually lead to the martyrdom of hundreds of Christians, making refugees of most of the rest.

Those Christians were Iraqis, though...they don't even know what it's like to worry about a healthcare mandate or transgender bathroom habits, so what could they possibly know about persecution, or for that matter being Christian!


This ^ is what persecution is, and I find your trivializing of persecution to be disgusting, immature, and perverse. Your churches aren't going anywhere, yet you hyperbolically whip yourselves into a frenzy over 'what might happen', apparently based on your persecution fantasies of what is actually happening to your own coreligionists (the martyrs of Siyadat an-Najat in Baghdad talked about in that video were Syriac Catholics) in the Middle East as they are murdered or exiled in increasing numbers.

Perspective? Gratefulness? Trust in God? Are any of these virtues that cannot be trampled down in the rush to get 'the right guy' into the White House, or is all of that out the window because look what happens in Iraq, or in North Korea, or in this place of that place?

LivingWordUnity said:

The HHS mandate, changes to adoption laws, so-called "same-sex marriage," "transgender" laws, and euthanasia are examples of new laws that go against Christian faith and morality and that therefore make it harder for Christians to live our faith without being harassed and punished for it. I know that, being that you agree with all of those things, you are going to tell us that we are wrong for not going along with those laws, but you can't deny that those of us who resist face punishment for it which is something new.

Click to expand...

The only one of those I've ever spoken for is secular homosexual marriage that is never forced upon Churches. I would support one that would prevent someone from being fired simply for being transgender though.

LivingWordUnity said:

The HHS mandate

Click to expand...

Nobody says you have to pay for contraceptives and all you to do is write a letter. Christians are hardly being barred for anything here.

changes to adoption laws,

Click to expand...

Nobody says Christians can't run a adoption agency, they just have to follow the law when the do it.

so-called "same-sex marriage,"

Click to expand...

Nobody says a Christian is required to marry someone of their same sex or religiously officiate at one. If you're a civil servant and a Christian all anyone asks that you do your mercy sake's job like everybody else. No one is barring Christians from the civil service

"transgender" laws,

Click to expand...

And this is barring Christians from what and how exactly ?

and euthanasia are examples of new laws

Click to expand...

Nobody is saying a Christian has to be euthanized, but they are being asked to stay the mercy sake's out of everybody elses health care decisions.

that go against Christian faith and morality and that therefore make it harder for Christians to live our faith without being harassed and punished for it.

Click to expand...

If living a Christian faith means that you don't have to do your job, feel hurt if other people you don't like have rights and get involved in other peoples private business, then yeah, I guess it is getting hard but I don't actually see any of those things as "Christian"

I know that, being that you agree with all of those things, you are going to tell us that we are wrong for not going along with those laws, but you can't deny that those of us who resist face punishment for it which is something new.

Click to expand...

At worst a Christian enforcing their beliefs on other people via denial of services, or non compliance with a regulation or law might get is a civil sanction and/or a small fine. Maybe 2 nights in jail for contempt of court.

They are not being barred from jobs, put into ghettos, having their property seized, their home and business burned or being thrown into trains and taken to places were they are killed, burned and buried in mass graves.

Ok ?

get a grip, this isn't entertaining anymore, it's just insane hysteria

Cosmic Charlie said:

Nobody says you have to pay for contraceptives and all you to do is write a letter. Christians are hardly being barred for anything here.



Nobody says Christians can't run a adoption agency, they just have to follow the law when the do it.



Nobody says a Christian is required to marry someone of their same sex or religiously officiate at one. If you're a civil servant and a Christian all anyone asks that you do your mercy sake's job like everybody else. No one is barring Christians from the civil service



And this is barring Christians from what and how exactly ?



Nobody is saying a Christian has to be euthanized, but they are being asked to stay the mercy sake's out of everybody elses health care decisions.



If living a Christian faith means that you don't have to do your job, feel hurt if other people you don't like have rights and get involved in other peoples private business, then yeah, I guess it is getting hard but I don't actually see any of those things as "Christian"




At worst a Christian enforcing their beliefs on other people via denial of services, or non compliance with a regulation or law might get is a civil sanction and/or a small fine. Maybe 2 nights in jail for contempt of court.

They are not being barred from jobs, put into ghettos, having their property seized, their home and business burned or being thrown into trains and taken to places were they are killed, burned and buried in mass graves.

Ok ?

get a grip, this isn't entertaining anymore, it's just insane hysteria

Click to expand...

i think the point here is that by the time the situation gets to that point that you have described, the problem is going to be finding someone outside our country to come to our rescue. maybe an ark?

no one is going to want to wade into such a situation lest they too find themselves behind bars, and without a 'get out of jail free" card.
and while there are other examples which could be cited that are closer to home,
it's simply not safe to do so and still survive.

Miss Shelby said:

The point is the government is coming closer and closer to being able to interfere with the church and what the church is able to do with regards to teaching. At the rate we are going the governments will be able to tell the Church to marry gays, catholic hospitals to fund abortion and perform them, Obama came close. Its getting closer and closer to living in a government controlled socialist state, for the love of st peter the nazi party had socialist in their TITLE , and everyone is so brain dead they do not notice. Well this change over to Socialism is going to happen without America even noticing.

Click to expand...

i agree. look how close Bernie Sanders came to his party's nomination as an open Socialist.

pdudgeon said:

i think the point here is that by the time the situation gets to that point that you have described, the problem is going to be finding someone outside our country to come to our rescue.

Click to expand...

No pd the problem is that you think somehow things are going to get the that point in the first plac

no one is going to want to wade into such a situation lest they too find themselves behind bars, and without a 'get out of jail free" card.

Click to expand...

Soo.....

in your world view not only are Christians severely oppressed they're cowards as well.

and while there are other examples which could be cited that are closer to home,
it's simply not safe to do so and still survive.

Click to expand...

Now we're back to insane hysteria again.

In my world a unarmed black man how has done nothing wrong has a higher probability of being shot by his own cities police force than a Christian has of suffering any form of oppression in the next 4 years.

pdudgeon said:

i agree. look how close Bernie Sanders came to his party's nomination as an open Socialist.

Click to expand...

So am I


You go a problem that ?

dzheremi said:

Where are the martyrs of the Obamaian persecution akin to those of the Diocletian persecution?

It seems that the promised (/hoped for?) persecution is always just around the corner if your guy doesn't get elected...nevermind that there hasn't been a Republican in the White House for 8 years now and in all that time you've still had churches go to. And nevermind that the last Republican that was in the White House directly intervened in another country to the degree that this intervention did actually lead to the martyrdom of hundreds of Christians, making refugees of most of the rest.

Those Christians were Iraqis, though...they don't even know what it's like to worry about a healthcare mandate or transgender bathroom habits, so what could they possibly know about persecution, or for that matter being Christian!

This ^ is what persecution is, and I find your trivializing of persecution to be disgusting, immature, and perverse. Your churches aren't going anywhere, yet you hyperbolically whip yourselves into a frenzy over 'what might happen', apparently based on your persecution fantasies of what is actually happening to your own coreligionists (the martyrs of Siyadat an-Najat in Baghdad talked about in that video were Syriac Catholics) in the Middle East as they are murdered or exiled in increasing numbers.

Perspective? Gratefulness? Trust in God? Are any of these virtues that cannot be trampled down in the rush to get 'the right guy' into the White House, or is all of that out the window because look what happens in Iraq, or in North Korea, or in this place of that place?

Click to expand...

The foreign policy and actions of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton led to the rise of ISIS.

See:

Obama/Hillary Syria foreign policy denounced by Syrian bishops
Obama/Hillary foreign policy led to explosive rise of Islamic terrorism

I don't live in the Middle East, but I've been actively following what's been going on with ISIS since the beginning of their rise. And I've been one of the ones who has been trying to get people to see how serious the situation is over there even as a lot of people seem apathetic about it. I never claimed that the situation in the United States is the same as over there, but it has the potential to become like Iraq and Syria just as these places used to be a place where Christians could live in peace. ISIS has no intention of staying where they are. Their intention is to spread their terror all around the world. We already have seen it begin in Europe and in the United States with the increasing frequency of Islamic terror attacks. And there's more than one kind of persecution—there's violence and also harassment and seduction. Although being martyred seems worse, Jesus actually said the one that is worse is the one that tempts us to lose our soul. And the United States is a place of temptation.

Miss Shelby said:

Its getting closer and closer to living in a government controlled socialist state, for the love of st peter the nazi party had socialist in their TITLE , and everyone is so brain dead they do not notice.

Click to expand...

While in power the Nazis did not seize control of the means of production for industries. On the contrary, for many industries they increased the amount of power of corporations. So, despite it being in the TITLE, they didn't do what socialists would do. But I agree, some people are too brain dead to notice that.