Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

Lord's Servant · Sep 5, 2016

* Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor . . . We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her . . . He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.  (Personal Prayer Book, 1522)

MrMoe · Sep 6, 2016

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Did you read all of my post? I thought I made it very clear that Mary is not the only one mentioned in the Bible (apart from the Holy Trinity) who's memory is honored by the Church as "blessed". The example I gave above for Sarah is but only one of many. Historically, days have been set aside for these commemorations; for those with out days, or who's names have been lost in time, we thank, praise and glorify God for them on All Saints Day.

Which post?

I was replying to post #73 where you said:

"Records regarding the Blessed virgin Mary are found in many places in Scripture and we are told that all nations will call her blessed.

That may not set her up on a pedestal; but it does set her apart from the rest of us."

You seemed to be implying that Mary was the only person who has been call blessed by all generations.

My bad for wording it the way I did; but I'm sorry you missed my point also; one of many it would seem.

Again, these great heroes of the faith are mentioned in the Bible; I am not, you are not.

I gave you Scripture that shows we are mentioned.

The Holy Spirit knew what He was doing (Omniscience) in revealing all of these Saints to us; so we not only learn by their example but so we can honor them and their memory. We set our Monarchs, Presidents, sports and entertainment stars apart, and society often gives them way more glory that we do the "cloud of witnesses" of which the Bible speaks.

Mary is not only the mother of Christ's Humanity, but the Mother of God (Theotokos).

We should remember the good things they did, but also the mistakes they made so we can learn from them. All these saints were sinners like us and it is important not to make them more than what they were.

Martin Luther's "Evangelical Praise of Mary":

I'm guessing Martin Luther thought Mary was a sinner, since he calls her unworthy.

MrMoe · Sep 6, 2016

All4Christ said:
If I may - here is another quote from Martin Luther:

How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” {Ref:Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521}

No one can go through Mary to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 6, 2016

MrMoe said:
Which post?

I was replying to post #73 where you said:

"Records regarding the Blessed virgin Mary are found in many places in Scripture and we are told that all nations will call her blessed.

That may not set her up on a pedestal; but it does set her apart from the rest of us."

You seemed to be implying that Mary was the only person who has been call blessed by all generations.

I showed you that we (the Church) do honor and bless others that are mentioned by name.

I gave you Scripture that shows we are mentioned.

Not by name; only by association. Unnamed saints are commemorated on November 1; All Saints Day.

We should remember the good things they did, but also the mistakes they made so we can learn from them. All these saints were sinners like us and it is important not to make them more than what they were.

For many of the saints we commemorate, their conversion stories and short comings are part of the commemoration, as much as their lives and deaths for those who were martyred.

I'm guessing Martin Luther thought Mary was a sinner, since he calls her unworthy.

Lutherans do not hold the Immaculate conception. Neither did Mary as she talks of her "low estate".

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 6, 2016

MrMoe said:
No one can go through Mary to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

Mary, just like the writers of the Acts, and those who wrote the Epistles and those who wrote the Old Testament, all point to Christ, to God. The verse means no one comes unto God the Father except through God the Son. If, as you seem to be advocating, we are to disregard Mary, then we need also to disregard everything else, except maybe the words in red in a modern Bible.

I'm sorry that your heart is so hardened; I truly am.

All4Christ · Sep 6, 2016

MrMoe said:
No one can go through Mary to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

I'm not here to debate this, but I think the quote I posted is relevant to the OP, and is relevant to establish the position held by some Lutherans.

(The OP asked whether Protestants can hold to praying and honoring the saints, not what every Protestant believes about the subject. I believe it is fairly obvious that not all Protestants support the OP's position. Rather - the questions is "can Protestants hold that position". Establishing Luther's beliefs - and the beliefs allowed by high-church groups, such as Confessional Lutherans - is very relevant, imho, as he was one of the first in the reformation).

Lord's Servant said:
I'm officially a United Methodist but I raised Catholic. I'm interested if any Protestants like Lutherans, Anglicans or any people from the High Church have any devotions to Blessed Virgin Mary or the saints. As for my devotions I use the Lutheran Rosary,the Pre-Trent Hail Mary,Angelus,Evangelical Praise of the Mother of God,Queen of Heaven prayer, and It is truly right to bless you prayer from a Eastern Orthodox hymn to Mary.What devotions do some Protestants use ,if any,towards Mary?

MrMoe · Sep 7, 2016

MarkRohfrietsch said:
I showed you that we (the Church) do honor and bless others that are mentioned by name.

And that was my point. Mary is not unique in being called blessed. It does not set her apart from other saints.

Not by name; only by association. Unnamed saints are commemorated on November 1; All Saints Day.

We couldn't have been mentioned by name for a few reasons.
. We weren't around back then.
. There are probably millions of people who have shared the same name as us.
. It would have made no sense to the people hearing or reading it.

Neither of us were around to see Jesus and His miracles yet we believe, Jesus said those are the ones who are blessed. That is as direct a reference to us as we are going to get in the Scriptures.

For many of the saints we commemorate, their conversion stories and short comings are part of the commemoration, as much as their lives and deaths for those who were martyred.

Lutherans do not hold the Immaculate conception. Neither did Mary as she talks of her "low estate".

Finally there's something we agree on.

MrMoe · Sep 7, 2016

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Mary, just like the writers of the Acts, and those who wrote the Epistles and those who wrote the Old Testament, all point to Christ, to God.

Mary doesn't point to God, not in an active way anyway. John the Baptist was a messenger sent ahead of Christ to actively point to Christ. She also did not write any book in the bible. No doubt she would have spread the good news after Christ had ascended and she had received the Holy Spirit in Acts, but now she's gone and what we have now are the Scriptures and the words of the apostles that point to God and Jesus Christ.

The verse means no one comes unto God the Father except through God the Son.

Yes, and Martin Luther said Mary wishes us to go through her to God, which is wrong, unless he meant something else.

If, as you seem to be advocating, we are to disregard Mary,

No, that's not what I'm advocating.

then we need also to disregard everything else, except maybe the words in red in a modern Bible.

That would be guilt by association which is logical fallacy.

I'm sorry that your heart is so hardened; I truly am.

What makes you think this?

I'm just trying to expose the bad arguments and the faulty reasoning that I see. Am I hard hearted just because I want to correct people? As Paul said in Galatians "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

MrMoe · Sep 7, 2016

All4Christ said:
I'm not here to debate this, but I think the quote I posted is relevant to the OP, and is relevant to establish the position held by some Lutherans.

(The OP asked whether Protestants can hold to praying and honoring the saints, not what every Protestant believes about the subject. I believe it is fairly obvious that not all Protestants support the OP's position. Rather - the questions is "can Protestants hold that position". Establishing Luther's beliefs - and the beliefs allowed by high-church groups, such as Confessional Lutherans - is very relevant, imho, as he was one of the first in the reformation).

I understand, I was just pointing out that Martin Luther was wrong on his last point about Mary.

thecolorsblend · Sep 17, 2016

MrMoe said:
I understand, I was just pointing out that Martin Luther was wrong on his last point about Mary.

Notwithstanding, Luther was in a fair level of unison with the Church Fathers concerning Our Lady's important role in redemptive history. This idea of reducing her to essentially a womb with feet is of a pretty recent innovation.

thecolorsblend · Sep 17, 2016

Lord's Servant said:
Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

Incidentally, in case it hasn't been made clear yet, of course Protestants can be devoted to Our Lady. It's not as though traditional Christians have a monopoly on that.

A Marian devotion doesn't somehow make somebody Catholic. I would argue you can't really be Catholic without some level of devotion to Our Lady. But having a devotion to Our Lady doesn't make you Catholic. It does, however, put you in good company with the Church Fathers.

"The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, 'The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.' And many said, 'She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain'".
- Ascension of Isaiah 11 [AD 70]

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will..."
- Odes of Solomon 19 [AD 80]

"Jesus became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied 'Be it done unto me according to your word' [Luke 1:38]."
- Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [AD 155]

There are other sources I could point to but these are some really early ones. And it's worth asking where did the Early Church get these ideas? Devotion to Our Lady was clearly a widespread practice. Two of these sources come from within the lifetime of at least a few apostles. Surely the apostles would've put a stop to it if a devotion to her was a grievous error.

And yet there's no indication the Church ever condemned Mariology. We can easily find evidence of the Early Church taking action against every conceivable heresy and schism you can imagine... but somehow they never get around to condemning Marian devotion?

That seems a little hard to believe.

Lord's Servant · Sep 20, 2016

thecolorsblend said:
Incidentally, in case it hasn't been made clear yet, of course Protestants can be devoted to Our Lady. It's not as though traditional Christians have a monopoly on that.

A Marian devotion doesn't somehow make somebody Catholic. I would argue you can't really be Catholic without some level of devotion to Our Lady. But having a devotion to Our Lady doesn't make you Catholic. It does, however, put you in good company with the Church Fathers.

"The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, 'The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.' And many said, 'She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain'".
- Ascension of Isaiah 11 [AD 70]

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will..."
- Odes of Solomon 19 [AD 80]

"Jesus became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied 'Be it done unto me according to your word' [Luke 1:38]."
- Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [AD 155]

There are other sources I could point to but these are some really early ones. And it's worth asking where did the Early Church get these ideas? Devotion to Our Lady was clearly a widespread practice. Two of these sources come from within the lifetime of at least a few apostles. Surely the apostles would've put a stop to it if a devotion to her was a grievous error.

And yet there's no indication the Church ever condemned Mariology. We can easily find evidence of the Early Church taking action against every conceivable heresy and schism you can imagine... but somehow they never get around to condemning Marian devotion?

That seems a little hard to believe.

I guess you're right because no one in the Church spoke against it and we have a lot of people was spoke about Mary in the days of the early church

MrMoe · Sep 23, 2016

thecolorsblend said:
Notwithstanding, Luther was in a fair level of unison with the Church Fathers concerning Our Lady's important role in redemptive history. This idea of reducing her to essentially a womb with feet is of a pretty recent innovation.

That's only true in the mind of some, not in reality. Just like some believe that we hate Mary, which is also not true.

All4Christ · Sep 23, 2016

MrMoe said:
That's only true in the mind of some, not in reality. Just like some believe that we hate Mary, which is also not true.

Luther's sermons honored Mary and expressed his views. His early sermons showed devotion to her. While his later sermons draw back some in regards to veneration and intercession, they still show his Marian theology, Including Mother of God, perpetual virginity and more. (His main point was to not put more focus on Mary than God.). If your sources are directly written by the person you are discussing, how can that not be reality? Certainly, Luther didn't agree with putting Mary on deity status (ftr, I don't think Catholics do that), and there certainly were some differences. Many concepts though were retained, and she definitely wasn't reduced to a mere girl who happened to bear Christ.

The core of his Marian beliefs was that all honor for Mary is directed towards Christ:

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.
(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

Note that I am only quoting from sermons in 1521 (when Martin Luther was excommunicated) or later.

ETA: We discussed this earlier. I forgot that I already posted some of this. Again, I am just pointing out that one of the founders of Protestantism held Mary in high regard.

Cappadocious · Sep 27, 2016

nondenom40 said:
Who else teaches that...theotokos...[is] dogma?

The Orthodox Church.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 27, 2016

Who else teaches that <Snip> [mary is] theotokos and pv are dogma? And since dogma, necessary for salvation? I thought that was just the rcc?

Such are confessed in our Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord), but only the understanding of Theotokos in regards to Nicene Christianity would be of grave importance; as it speaks to the doctrine of the trinity. Denying Theotokos, would be at odds with Trinitarian Doctrine.

BTW, as Lutherans, we are free to the Assumption as a pious belief.

MarkRohfrietsch · Sep 27, 2016

MrMoe said:
I understand, I was just pointing out that Martin Luther was wrong on his last point about Mary.

Or... he was right and you are wrong?? Could be...

bbbbbbb · Sep 27, 2016

Cappadocious said:
The Orthodox Church.

Is dogma the same idea in the Orthodox Church as in the RCC? In the RCC dogma is essential to salvation. If you do not believe all of the Marian dogmas you cannot be saved. Does the Orthodox Church teach this, as well?

anna ~ grace · Sep 27, 2016

If you reject Sola-Fide, that likely makes it impossible to be a Protestant, but we don't fellowship anywhere right now, and for the most part, we pray at home.

I don't pray *to* blessed men and women who are with Christ, but I do pray to Christ through their prayers and virtue. And after wards, kind of thank them for their prayers and intercession.

If you come to Christ in a Baptist or Evangelical context, there are many things you may naturally shy away from, lest you commit some kind of idolatry or blaspheme. But I have found praying to Christ about His Blessed Mother to be something I find safe, and also wonderful. I do understand her to be the Mother of our faith and works through her faith and works, the first Christian, and extremely blessed and near to Christ in Paradise. And when I pray about her, the phrase "Blessed Virgin Mary" keeps popping out of my mouth, even though for years I'd assumed she had other kids.

bbbbbbb · Sep 28, 2016

Gracia Singh said:
If you reject Sola-Fide, that likely makes it impossible to be a Protestant, but we don't fellowship anywhere right now, and for the most part, we pray at home.

I don't pray *to* blessed men and women who are with Christ, but I do pray to Christ through their prayers and virtue. And after wards, kind of thank them for their prayers and intercession.

If you come to Christ in a Baptist or Evangelical context, there are many things you may naturally shy away from, lest you commit some kind of idolatry or blaspheme. But I have found praying to Christ about His Blessed Mother to be something I find safe, and also wonderful. I do understand her to be the Mother of our faith and works through her faith and works, the first Christian, and extremely blessed and near to Christ in Paradise. And when I pray about her, the phrase "Blessed Virgin Mary" keeps popping out of my mouth, even though for years I'd assumed she had other kids.

Well, of course Mary and Joseph did have other children, but that does not alter the fact that she was a (very blessed) virgin when she bore Jesus Christ.

Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

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